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Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by Kapura on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @10:19AM (#37481713)
It's a shame Unity seems so intent on making itself unattractive to developers. I prefer writing c# to c++, and I think Unity's onboarding experience is much better than Unreal. But when it comes to a non-solo-development effort, when you need to start thinking about businesses and numbers and all the things that aren't making the game, Epic has made Unreal attractive, and partnerships with the Epic Games Store can boost that value even further.

Unity's recent moves to me speak to a fear that they've more-or-less hit their market saturation point, and now they're looking to extract more from the developers who live in their slice of the pie. I fear this will make that slice shrink, which will create more fear, and then the problem spirals.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by ActionHank on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @10:35AM (#37481967)
I've been eyeing out UnrealCLR, it looks really promising!
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by WillPostForFood on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:14PM (#37485181)
Unfortunately it looks dead - last release was over a year ago, commits tapering off.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by AuryGlenz on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:27AM (#37482730)
If Unreal (natively) adopted C# that would absolutely be a killing blow to Unity, to the point where I'm amazed they haven't done it.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by matt3210 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:43AM (#37482993)
C++ is a much better language than c#, what’s your reasoning here?
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by bilekas on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:31PM (#37483781)
Better is relative. And it's just a different type of tool. To be honest I know many more better engineers who primarily work with dotnet over CPP. The learning curve for CPP is higher because the ability to shoot yourself in the foot with CPP is higher. It's neither better or worse. Just a different tool in a toolbox.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by fnordpiglet on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:01PM (#37483296)
I think a lot of people find the learning curve of c++ fairly extreme, especially when considering the amount of knowledge to do idiomatic programming in c++ required to “do things elegantly.” C# and related languages tend to have idioms baked in closer to the syntax and grammar. My view of c++ after 30 years of it is it’s great if you’ve got 10 years experience programming it within a team of seasoned c++ programmers who shows you the ropes. Even then I think rust is the language I wished for all these years (albeit not for game dev yet). Finally, for the reasons rust isn’t great for game dev, c# and ilk generally have excellent reflective and dynamic natures making them sort of the sweatpants and old T-shirt language for game programming.

That said, it locks you into using stuff like mono and stuff for cross platform which makes me a sad.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by whoisthemachine on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:17PM (#37485226)
> That said, it locks you into using stuff like mono and stuff for cross platform which makes me a sad.

Microsoft's .Net Core runtime (now just .Net) has supported Linux and MacOS since 2016, so this information has been out of date for 7+ years.

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/announcing-net-core-1-...

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by fnordpiglet on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @04:05PM (#37487340)
Oh thanks! I stand corrected. Good to see.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by TylerE on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @11:23AM (#37497996)
But that does NOT include WinForms.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by Qwertious on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:04PM (#37483343)
Define "better language". If you don't need performance then C# can make your life much easier.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by kroltan on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:33PM (#37483804)
The new versions of C# can compile ahead-of-time, and have expanding support for value types and pointer-like semantics, so you're not stuck with the Java-y OOP For Everything paradigm if it doesn't fit your requirements.

The standard libraries are still an allocation party, of course, but that can be supplemented in an engine context.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by Thaxll on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @01:26PM (#37484548)
Famous last words, even with the optimization in the latests net core clr, it's nowhere close to C++.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by sha90 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:22PM (#37485278)
Citation needed? Raw speed is likely similar; the cost overhead comes from GC cycles and the general approach to managing memory primarily in the heap vs stack, although C# can stackalloc if you're really diligent. Note that this is the same problem that blazing fast alternatives like Go have at competing with C/C++. These languages are mostly equivalent to C/C++ in speed, but lose the benchmark shootouts because of GC.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by neonsunset on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @07:38PM (#37490183)
Calling Go blazing fast would be a stretch at best...the path to performance in C# is same as in Rust or C++: struct generics (aka templates), as short hot paths as possible, static partitioning of the work, sometimes hands on memory management and minimization of locking.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by kevingadd on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @03:54PM (#37487126)
This is a pretty wild generalization to make. It's not hard to contrive scenarios where C++ with its notoriously slow stdlib (despised by game developers) is going to be slower than C# with its JIT doing runtime optimizations like guarded devirtualization.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by dagw on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @07:40AM (#37495397)
C++ written by people who really good at writing fast C++ is faster than C#. Naive and readable C++ written by average programmers wanting to solve a problem in the obvious way on the whole isn't faster than C#
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by sha90 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:29PM (#37485398)
Keep in mind that in addition to the "learning curve" arguments, there is also the functional developer ergonomics of things like live reload (where you can maintain memory state) that are simply not possible to do with C++ without heavy limitations or customized tooling.

Being able to fix a bug without resetting memory state is a huge ergonomic advantage in game development where generating the right memory state can be incredibly complex and depend on a ton of very specific and hard-to-reproduce factors. Not to mention incredibly slow.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by fxtentacle on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @03:00PM (#37486093)
"Being able to fix a bug without resetting memory state is a huge ergonomic advantage in game development"

Visual Studio works with UE and calls that "Edit and Continue" and it works in C++, too.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by sha90 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @03:54PM (#37487109)
Yes, but it has many known limitations and isn't nearly as reliable as a runtime that has a full GC and virtualization optionality, which you really need in order to fully track what state can be evicted and what needs to stay.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by johnnyanmac on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @12:52AM (#37492341)
Game devs want fast iterations above everything else, with performance being a close second. c++'s "toolchain" makes those iterations prohibitively impossible, even with decades of workarounds with hot reloading and extravagant methods to keep compilation times down.

If you're a AAA dev you give up a lot of that iteration because performance overtakes you, but there's little reason some indie 2d platformer will want to deal with even 30 second iteration times (which would be blazing quick for a AAA setup). C# is a mature, familiar environment for devs with similar syntax to C++ that can get decent performance as long as you maintain some discipline (for starters, no LINQ)

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by mentos on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:46AM (#37483043)
I was super excited for Garry Newman's project to bring C# to UE but never transpired: https://sbox.facepunch.com/news/dev-blog-2

Maybe ChatGPT6 can port the UE C++ codebase to C# and we can call it UE6

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by bpye on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:21PM (#37483618)
There was also Mono UE [0] - which was being developed by some of the Xamarin folks.

I’ve not played around with any game development for a long while - does C# end up popular here just because people are familiar with Unity? I definitely get that C++ is not the most productive language - though improving perhaps.

Simply loading the .NET Core CLR is not difficult [1] - but unless things have changed since I last tried binding C++ interfaces to C# is time consuming, especially if you want to be able to implement an interface in managed code.

[0] - https://mono-ue.github.io/

[1] - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tutorials/netc...

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by kevingadd on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @03:52PM (#37487085)
Part of C#'s popularity with indies is due to the legacy of XNA. Thousands, probably tens or even hundreds of thousands of indies got started with XNA and released games using it, so it's natural to stay on C# whether you move to FNA, MonoGame, Unity or Godot
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by Aerroon on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @07:35AM (#37495363)
To add: C# is a language that is easy to pick up. If you've written Java then you could basically just start writing C#.

Probably even a C or C++ background would allow you to do that. Maybe even knowing js is enough.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by Rohansi on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @08:06PM (#37490419)
S&box is still in progress and using C# but it is now using the Source 2 engine instead. You can actually get invoted to it on Steam and play/build games for it now too.

It previously used UE4 and C# integration was all working with that but, as soon as they found out that they could get access to Source 2, they took the opportunity. Makes sense because the team is significantly more experienced with the Source engine since most of them have previously worked on or with Garry's Mod.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by koolala on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:13PM (#37491768)
JBMod 2 might be better, I hope fans of gmod unite and make Godot's Mod.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by abrolhos on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:25PM (#37483683)
>> [...] I'm amazed they haven't done it.

Never interfere with an enemy while he’s in the process of destroying himself.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by sBqQu3U0wH on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:32PM (#37483796)
I don't mind C++, but can you delete the script file without closing the editor yet? It was such a turn off for me at the time that I abandoned all intentions of ever learning to use Unreal Engine.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by dgellow on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @01:00PM (#37484255)
Honestly, Unreal C++ isn’t that bad or hardcore. It’s fairly high level, and Unreal APIs are pretty well designed. You spend way more time dealing with Unreal specific stuff and your game objects than dealing with C++ issues.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by Kapura on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @01:31PM (#37484600)
I don't think that's true, and I don't think the juice would be worth the squeeze. Unreal's flavour of C++ is heavily managed, relying on preprocessing of header files to create garbage collecting pointers and a whole heap of other things you don't think you're signing up for when you think about a C++ codebase. There is no simple place to begin if you're trying to make it C# friendly.

But most of my issues have been with engine philosophy, where Unreal has bent over backwards to expose things to their visual scripting language. It feels like every single feature has a mandate to work in a blueprint tech demo, and as a result few of them are pleasant to code against and almost none of them work together coherently. These are not issues that depend on the language used.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by AuryGlenz on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @10:45PM (#37491607)
C# being the deciding factor an incredibly common refrain in game development "what engine do you/should I use?"

Whether or not it's justified is another manner. I haven't personally dealt with the modern Unreal Engine but natively supporting C# would, at the very least, make people a lot more likely to switch over.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by Kapura on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @01:53PM (#37499519)
I think if you used the modern Unreal Engine you would change your tune.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by Aerroon on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @07:33AM (#37495340)
I was surprised that Unreal Engine didn't just translate Blueprint directly into C++ code. They already have a text-based version of Blueprint. You can see it when you copy a blueprint graph and paste it into a text file (or at least you could when UE4 launched).
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by kriro on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:53PM (#37485966)
Disagree. Unity is pretty strong on mobile and multi-plattform. Enough to survive on this alone (imo). I also think Blueprints is already a strong competitor for the share of users who find C++ too complicated (non-programers and people who have only dabbled in scripting). I think for "traditional programers" the difference between C++ and C# isn't big enough to make a difference and frankly people with a gamedev background probably prefer C++.

That being said as a non mobile guy who occasionally dabbles in engine stuff I'll be migrating to Unreal for good now. I haven't been a paying customer for a while now but I used to pay for Unity back in the super early days of AR.

Or I guess take another serious look at Godot :D

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by ummonk on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @05:47PM (#37488961)
Mobile is the kind of use case where the pricing changes will be massively impactful though. If you're selling a non-mobile game for $10+ then you can just eat the per-install fee, but if you're shipping a free to play app or a $1 app? The per install fee could make your business model nonviable.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:37PM (#37491905)
I mean, knowing c++ and c#, I am always terrified about the former. There is an enormous set of things that shouldn't be touched and a whole set of gotchas in managing headers, writing macros, templates. Granted none of the two are used at my day to day job.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by kevingadd on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @03:51PM (#37487068)
There was C# support for Unreal (contributed by the Mono maintainers) at one point but Epic actively blocked it. They want everyone on C++ and nothing else
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by msk-lywenn on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @05:37PM (#37488814)
[delayed]
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by kevingadd on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @07:44PM (#37490236)
the megagrant appears to have happened in 2020, the blocking of unreal C# happened years and years prior and put an end to development (community and otherwise) at the time (pre-2017, I don't know the exact date)
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by kkukshtel on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @04:27PM (#37487720)
I've been tracking this (Epic Megagrant awarded!) project for a while that attempts to do very much that: https://github.com/nxrighthere/UnrealCLR

I'm also surprised though they haven't just gone and added C# support as a first class option, it seems like such an obvious win.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by qwytw on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:47PM (#37484025)
Isn't Unreal still significantly more expensive with the 5% royalty at least as long as your game costs more than $5-10?

Edit: am I wrong (mathematically?)

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by NohatCoder on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @01:42PM (#37484771)
The problem is that Unity has a lot of customers that make freemium/ad supported/low cost (mobile) games. $0.20 per install is absurd when most players are gone after less than an hour of playtime.

Of course if you sell games at $60 a piece it is not a whole lot, and the regular seat pricing of Unity is most likely a far greater expense.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by gsuuon on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:01PM (#37485013)
This does look pretty bad for hyper-casual and casual Unity devs. The total earning per install could easily drop into the negative and even with the $200k revenue buffer, it'd be easy to end up with almost nothing. I imagine these folks will just shut their game down around the $200k mark if they see their LTV hovering at or below $0.20.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by qwytw on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @03:42PM (#37486875)
> shut their game down around the $200k

Wouldn't upgrading to Pro be a better option? Yearly subscription for a seat seems to be worth about 10k $0.2.

Also you're cost per install is almost certainly going to be significantly below $0.2 because every install outside of:

"United States, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, South Korea, and the United Kingdom" (I wonder how did they create this list, e.g. Spain and Italy seem to have a comparable or even higher cost-per-click than Sweden , Austria, Finland etc.)

will cost just $0.02

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by gsuuon on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @04:03PM (#37487299)
You're right, upgrading to pro would be better at $2k/seat/yr which gets you a much larger million dollar buffer. Also, I'm noticing that the revenue thresholds seem to be per-game not per org - so actually, the new pricing isn't that bad!
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by qwytw on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @03:05PM (#37486203)
> $0.20 per install is absurd

Yeah, it almost seems to me that the $0.20 is there to force to encourage plus subscribers to Pro.

Which probably was a poor choice marketing wise since most people will just see a single number and not pay much attention at anything else.

Also it's only $0.2 fore a specific list of countries (US, CAN, AU, NZ, JP, SK and some richer EU countries). Everywhere else it's $0.02

I don't personally like this whole business model that much, but financially it seems to be pretty reasonable (I guess as long as you can somewhat predict your expected install count in advance which might not be that easy in some cases).

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by sbergot on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:28AM (#37493821)
It does seem reasonable as an incentive for successful studios to switch to pro. However the issue is not purely with the price only.

The issue is the fact that the wording is unclear. Also a price per install seems like a bad target overall. How is it reported? Now they are saying that there are exceptions like gamepass installs. It is going to be a mess.

Also the change is retroactive. Imagine a vendor announcing that starting January 2024 you will have to give them a piece of your cake. Even if the piece is small, you are still going to contact your layers, and you will loose trust with this particular vendor.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by qwytw on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @07:14AM (#37495188)
> The issue is the fact that the wording is unclear. Also a price per install seems like a bad target overall. How is it reported? Now they are saying that there are exceptions like gamepass installs. It is going to be a mess.

Oh yeah, I 100% agree with this. On the very basic level I just hate the concept of a third party tracking and counting every user I have without my (or the actual user's consent). Not every game/app made with Unity is distributed on the App Store/Steam/etc. and there are plenty of other reasons why I wouldn't want to share that data with anyone (or even collect it).

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by namrog84 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @01:55PM (#37484942)
I think unreal 5% only takes effect after your first 1 million in revenue
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by qwytw on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @03:10PM (#37486286)
I guess it depends then.

Looking at their per install pricing if you have large number of users but very low revenue per user it would certainly make sense to upgrade to Pro where you would only pay ~$2k for each seat as long as you make less than 1 million per year. Which doesen't seem that unreasonable.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by Sakos on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @08:21PM (#37503373)
It's not necessarily about the pricing. It's how the pricing is determined. 5% of revenue is concrete. You can make a business plan and plan for the future based on that. With Unity's new pricing structure, it's impossible.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by kalupa on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:24PM (#37485312)
I wonder if this shift away from developer happiness is due to Unity now being beholden to a new master: the stockholders
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by badRNG on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @05:04PM (#37488330)
Yet another victim of enshittification this year. Tech sector has been hit especially hard.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by depereo on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @05:54PM (#37489062)
Turns out money isn't free.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by sha90 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @08:04PM (#37490405)
This isn't really a solid argument since stockholder investment isn't even "money"; it's collateral in the form of market valuation against which Unity borrows. The actual "money" (dollars in a bank account) comes from lenders who look at a bunch of factors and make determinations about how much $$$ to give. That money isn't free, but it's got very little to do with "the shareholders" in general.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by chii on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @08:37PM (#37490664)
> it's got very little to do with "the shareholders" in general.

no it's got everything to do with shareholders, because ultimately, the money the shareholders invested into the company will need to be recouped by the shareholders, by any method they can.

And in a cut throat business of game engines, unity is trying to squeeze out every bit of juice it can. It still has some advantages over godot atm (such as big install base, and a pre-existing network/momentum which is hard to dissipate), and my guess is that unity is trying to get revenue up before godot takes their lunch in a few more years.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by EA-3167 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @07:06PM (#37489858)
Their share price just dove about 120 points, from about 150 to 36. I'd say the shareholders are pretty pissed at Unity execs right about now.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by golergka on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:52PM (#37485941)
How is Unreal's mobile gaming situation? I haven't worked in mobile game development for a few years, but at least through the 2010s, Unity was an undisputed king of free-to-play mobile games for studios who weren't rich enough to develop their own engines.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by pnw on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @04:12PM (#37487483)
Unreal has limited traction on mobile, which is now >50% of the gaming market. It's likely one of the reasons Unity thinks they can get away with this. The last number I saw had Unity above 50% share with Unreal under 15%.

It's difficult to champion high end features for your engine but keep it suitable for low end smart phones. Epic made a good attempt to win mobile devs back in the Infinity Blade days, but given their recent focus (not to mention lawsuits against Apple and Google), it seems they intentionally decided to deprioritize mobile and focus on PC and console.

Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by hesdeadjim on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @07:39PM (#37490187)
I have an open world game I have to make run in 1.3GB of RAM for my min spec. I just can’t see a world where I could do it in Unreal. And unity knows that and is trying to get away with murder.
Re:Unity plan pricing and packaging updates by lobsterthief on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @12:48AM (#37492316)
> Unity's recent moves to me speak to a fear that they've more-or-less hit their market saturation point, and now they're looking to extract more from the developers who live in their slice of the pie. I fear this will make that slice shrink, which will create more fear, and then the problem spirals.

Man, you just described [enshittification](https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/) to a tee