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Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by baobabKoodaa on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:55PM (#37395373)
Sounds like Razor could sue Rockstar for copyright infringement. That would be hilarious.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by jiofj on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:18PM (#37395672)
They could. They would lose, though
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by wongarsu on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:40PM (#37395940)
A No-CD crack might not be transformative enough to warrant copyright protection as derivative work in the US. But they could sue in a jurisdiction that is more likely to give them a favorable outcome. Handling of derivative works and the minimum threshold for copyright varies considerably between countries.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by Guvante on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:46PM (#37396011)
Likely Rockstar would counter sue for violating their original Copyright and the terms of use attached to them.

At best it would be a wash, there is a decent chance the damages for the countersuit would lead to a net loss.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by ArnoVW on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:04PM (#37396250)
The can sue them for anti-circumvention statutes in the DMCA. But not for infringement, since the developers did not do the infringement, they only enabled it.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by favorited on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:33PM (#37400332)
How did the cracked game enter circulation, if the crackers didn't redistribute it?
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by methou on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:32AM (#37401364)
In this very specific case, it's a no-cd patch, you can be a legitimate owner of the copy but for some very valid reasons that do not want load the CD every time you play the game. (Like disk and/drive wearing, or just don't like the hassle)
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by hnick on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @06:09AM (#37403205)
Do those statutes apply for interoperability? Which takes precedence?

This is basically how Rockstar used it - to make the game work on computers without CDs. So the actual rights holder has recognised that this tool or one like it is legitimately required for interoperability, between the game as a piece of technology and a modern computer. They won't work together otherwise.

Maybe I am being too tricky but that's how I see it. And if that makes it a legitimate work then it's funny to think about the consequences.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by ArnoVW on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @06:32AM (#37403332)
Certain excemptions are provided in the DMCA, and have been established via jurisprudenence:

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/10/28/2021-23...

Geeks often think that the law is some sort of blockchain-esque thing that is absolute, context-free and machine-interpretable.

In reality, many laws require 'guilty intent' (mens rea). This is why we have 'judges', who perform 'judgement'.

So the same tool called 'no-cd', marketed as a backup tool may be judged 'OK', where 'WaR3z HaCk.exe' published by a group of known software pirates will be judged 'anti circumvention'

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by account42 on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @09:19AM (#37404709)
NoCD patches are commonly distributed as an already-patched version of the executable, which would count as infringement.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by therein on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @06:08PM (#37398451)
After some short searching online, looks like for copyright infringement litigation, the statute of limitation is three years.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by freejazz on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:08PM (#37396311)
I don't think people on HN understand what a derivative work is, considering how often I see it referenced incorrectly. You can't make a derivative work without a license. That's why it's derivative. It derivates from the copyrighted work and is therefore within the domain of the copyright and under the control of the copyright's owner.

A Harry Potter spin-off about Hermione (I don't know anything about HP, sorry in advanced) is a derivative of the original Harry Potter work. As I'm sure you are well aware, you cannot sell copies of your Hermione spin-off, because that'd be copyright infringement, because it is a derivative work.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:14PM (#37396393)
> I don't think people on HN understand what a derivative work is, considering how often I see it referenced incorrectly.

Very true.

> You can't make a derivative work without a license. T

You can, but it is a copyright violation to do so unless an exception (like Fair Use) applies.

A derivative work is also a work eligible for copyright in its own right, and as such is copyright by the creator by operation of law when fixed in a tangible form, whether or not it also violates someone else’s copyright.

> It derivates

“derives”

> from the copyrighted work and is therefore within the domain of the copyright and under the control of the copyright's owner.

No, producing it is within the legally exclusive rights of the copyright holder subject to the limitations on those rights, but once created the copyright in the derivative is not under the control of the copyright holder of the original (though transferring or licensing back may be part of the resolution of copyright violation lawsuit over its creation.)

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by antiterra on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:24PM (#37400260)
I thought Pickett v Prince established precedent that you can’t copyright an unauthorized derivative work.

See 17 U.S.C. §103(a), which says that derivative works can be copyrighted, but that does not extend to any part of the work in which such material has been used unlawfully.

(not a lawyer but I did audit this class at a law school)

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by bri3d on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:30PM (#37396585)
If the patch is distributed on its own, without the original binary, is it still a derivative work? Is the unique, creative work of writing "perform XYZ instruction at XYZ address," in lieu of the original executable, still derivative?

This is actually an unanswered/unproven question that comes up quite a bit in automotive tuning, where individuals and tuning companies modify OEM calibrations and create application software patches which, while they are unique and perform stand-alone functions, run on top of OEM ECU software.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by EvanAnderson on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @04:55PM (#37397617)
The history of General Computer Corporation's[0] arcade enhancement boards is an interesting example of this kind of "derivative" work.

GCC made an enhancement board for Missile Command and later for Pac Man ("Crazy Otto", which became "Ms. Pac Man"). Rather than employing simple "ROM hacks" as other enhancement board manufacturers did, GCC specifically built their enhancement hardware not to contain any code copied from the original game ROM. Their hardware patched the existing ROM only by overlaying their code onto the original ROMs, not by copying any of the original code[1].

There's some neat detail in the background slides here[2]. I'd love to hear that talk but I'm not immediately a recording of it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Computer_Corporation

[1] https://web.stanford.edu/class/sts145/Notes/3_game_business/...

[2] https://trilobyte.com/pdf/golson_ReplayFX_2015.pdf

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by lmm on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:33PM (#37399820)
> If the patch is distributed on its own, without the original binary, is it still a derivative work?

Yes, just as annotations are recognised as being a derivative work even without the original.

> Is the unique, creative work of writing "perform XYZ instruction at XYZ address," in lieu of the original executable, still derivative?

If you can convince a judge that, on the balance of probabilities, you were divinely inspired to write it with no connection to the original executable, then it's not derivative. But good luck with that.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by CapstanRoller on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:47PM (#37396833)
>you cannot sell copies of your Hermione spin-off, because that'd be copyright infringement, because it is a derivative work

But you can distribute it for free, as fanfiction.

Also, a no-CD crack does not contain any of the original work. It's akin to a program that you can use to modify, say, your legally-purchased Harry Potter ebook in order to change all instances of "wand" to "wang"

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by bragr on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @04:30PM (#37397280)
Fan fiction is basically illegal, or at best in a deeply gray area, it's just that most people realize suing your super-fans is a bad move. There are exceptions of course, Anne Rice was famously super litigious over any attempted fan fiction of her characters which generated a lot of bad feelings online.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/88gqjz/anne-rice-really-hate...

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by PrimeMcFly on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @05:37PM (#37398114)
Paramount suing Star Trek fan productions is another great example. They recently took down the Wolf 359 audio book project for example.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by lmm on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:36PM (#37399849)
> But you can distribute it for free, as fanfiction.

Not legally.

> Also, a no-CD crack does not contain any of the original work. It's akin to a program that you can use to modify, say, your legally-purchased Harry Potter ebook in order to change all instances of "wand" to "wang"

Doesn't matter, it's still a derivative work, just as a translation or annotation that doesn't contain any of the original text is a derivative work.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by victorbjorklund on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @04:28PM (#37397262)
I'm not sure about american law but in EU (at least Sweden) you def get copyright to detivative work even if you don't have a license. If I create a derivative work based on Harry Potter the result will be that I have copyright to the derivative work BUT not to Harry Potter (I wish) so while I own the rights to my work I can't produce (etc) the work (at least not in a commerical capacity) because JK rowling owns the Harry Potter rights. However JK does not have the right to use my derivative work without a license from me.

A maybe more clear example is music. Songwriting is covered by copywrite. Singing is also covered by copywrite. If A writes a song and B sings the song without A:s premission it can be copyright infringment. However, A can not take a recording of B:s song and copy and sell it without B:s consent because B has the copyright to the performance (even if the performance was a copywright infringment).

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by bombcar on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @07:08PM (#37399042)
You can skirt incredibly close, however - search Amazon for “unofficial Harry Potter”.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by freejazz on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @10:20AM (#37405561)
That just means they haven't been sued, there is no copyright czar that makes sure infringement never happens. Owners need to sue.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by bombcar on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @10:54AM (#37406085)
It won't happen, as factual details can't be copyrighted.

So I can't write a story with HP characters, but I can't be copyright struck for writing that there is a book called Harry Potter that has these characteristics.

(The above is in the USA, other countries have different policies and rights.)

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by freejazz on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:21AM (#37406466)
Harry Potter isn't a fact. A book about the fact that Harry Potter was written and it's about wizards is about as long as that sentence.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by bombcar on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:04PM (#37407081)
There are at least four books so far in the "unofficial" series, and if you believe that the companies involved wouldn't copyright strike it if they could, that's protected by the first amendment.

https://www.mugglenet.com/site/publications/

You can also find unofficial and unauthorized books in other settings, such as Minecraft, but you can argue that it's explicitly permitted as seen here: https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/commercial-use-guide... - but you can ignore those in the USA in many cases - here's one already: https://www.amazon.com/Minecraft-Monarchies-UnOfficial-Story...

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by freejazz on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:58PM (#37408657)
Okay, it's not "skirting incredibly close" to write those reference books, because they are in no way a substitute for the underlying fiction, which is why they would probably be considered a fair use.

>There are at least four books so far in the "unofficial" series, and if you believe that the companies involved wouldn't copyright strike it if they could, that's protected by the first amendment.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The first amendment isn't a defense to copyright infringement. transformative fair use with a de minimis copying is.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by bombcar on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @02:06PM (#37408763)
I was saying that if you believed that the companies involved wouldn't strike these if they could, that belief is covered by the first amendment freedom of religion.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by freejazz on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @03:23PM (#37409900)
You said they were strikingly close to the line, they aren't. The implicit suggestion being one can just write harry potter fiction by referring to harry potter facts, you can't!
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by itiro on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @04:44PM (#37397480)
Most DRM crackers aren’t in it for money but to prove DRM is a flawed and ridiculous concept.

That was my scene back in the day when there was less risk of the Feds kicking in the door. At least back then most of us saw it as a learning experience.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by bogwog on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:36PM (#37395897)
Because Rockstar is a huge company, or because the dev wouldn’t have a case?
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by parineum on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:41PM (#37395950)
What's the copyrighted work here?
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by baobabKoodaa on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:57PM (#37396954)
Both the original game and the no-cd crack are copyrighted works.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by parineum on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @07:18PM (#37399128)
Who owns the no-cd copyright?
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by baobabKoodaa on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @07:58PM (#37399527)
Well, obviously the people who wrote it. They don't own the game, which they didn't make, but they own rights to the cracking code, which they did make.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by enos_feedler on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @05:28PM (#37398011)
Former cracker for rzr here :) did not do this game unfortunately.
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by effingwewt on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @05:49PM (#37398242)
Thank you for your service o7
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by apgwoz on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @06:46PM (#37398861)
Oh, you "didn't" do this game, wink wink, nudge nudge. ;)
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by pizzafeelsright on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @07:21PM (#37399158)
Question for you from the 17 year old me.

Why did you do this? Fame? Money? Challenge?

I didn't know enough to so it myself and no one would teach me.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by blagie on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @07:48PM (#37399428)
Having done similar (not identical) things at that age, a lot of it is quite literally for the LOLs, and more than a bit is for community identity.

Fame: Non-existent, since you don't tell people.

Money: Non-existent, you don't get paid.

In retrospect, I think a major drivers for teenagers for a lot of activities is a sense of identity. You feel like one of the role models in [name your favorite hacker movie]. It's the same reason why punks wore spikes and mohawks, goths wore black, and people might pick a genre of music (even if privately). I'd guess a lot of more negative things, like vandalism, are similar too.

You become part of a community too.

And ultimately, you contribute to it. As much as it might be illegal, cracking software helps other kids who can't afford that software. Few real engineers will use a hacked copy of AutoCAD, and literally everyone I know began to pay for music once they could afford it. On the other end of the bell curve are kids who can't afford those. Providing them with access is a community service. And it's going up against The Man. It's illegal, but by the code of ethics we followed at the time, it was very ethical.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by joshmn on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @09:43PM (#37400425)
I've done something similar in recent past on a large scale:

I did it because it was interesting, I wanted to prove DRM is a flawed concept and broken construct, and because the community which I built (as a result) was really great and a home to me when I didn't ever experience one.

It was never about money or fame, it was about providing something to people that had a value. People said the "thing" I provided was better than the "real thing", and that gave me a sense of pride: I'd never get hired by the company that made "real thing" to make their "thing" better because I didn't have the credentials on paper.

But at least my "thing" was better.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by Agingcoder on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @02:40AM (#37401958)
It’s a great way to learn - so challenge. There’s neither fame nor money here I think.

At least in the 90s there were lots of tutorials to learn how to crack/reverse engineer, from +orc’s documentation to fravia ´s fortress of reverse engineering - I’d expect similar tutorials to still be around.

Reverse engineering also happens to be a very useful skill as a regular software engineer ( debugging compiler bugs, figuring out why software X is behaving strangely and what it is doing etc ).

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by rmilk on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @04:08AM (#37402485)
Exactly true. Was a teenage software hacker, reverse engineered many games mostly because I was a bored teenager with free time and many games I legitimately bought. Mostly it was to cheat a little, like tweaking player stats or number of lives in a save file.

All that reverse engineering experience gave me a particularly useful talent as a developer: an uncanny ability to sit down and grok other people’s code almost like magic.

Solid experience with reverse engineering really is a good skill to have.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by wink on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @05:57AM (#37403140)
Depends on when the people did this and how complex the mechanism were at the time. I do remember just learning about JMP in assembler and that you could bypass a lot of stuff by changing a true to false or vice versa. Not exactly rocket science. (Not saying this to downplay anything, but what seems magical to many non-techies was actually very easy to do if you knew the trick, and it already worked for like 30% of the games - I'm not talking about the real stuff later on, not even sure how complicated NoCD was.)

On the other hand, probably 15-20 years after I had last used a crack for a game I had to implement some basic protection like this into a piece of software (more like: make sure the customer will not run this demo version forever) and it was fun to discuss in the team what we all remembered from back then and which measures were adequate to implement.

Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by enos_feedler on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:05AM (#37414637)
I did it for unlimited access to t3 zero day ftp sites
Re:Rockstar is selling cracked game copies on Steam by 3abiton on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @07:14PM (#37399096)
I wonder if No-CD was released under a specific open-source license, that would be hilarious