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Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by trelane on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:24AM (#37392934)
How about requiring devices to accept alternate, Free Software firmware, from the upstream provider?

At the very least, it should be possible after some time period of no updates or insecurity, but a blanket requirement is less susceptible to games.

Probably the best thing to happen to wireless routers is OpenWRT and the other descendents of the WRT firmware.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by hannob on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:29AM (#37393037)
I am all for alternative free software firmware. But I don't think it adresses IoT security in any meaningful way.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by CameronNemo on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:33AM (#37393094)
Why? The person you are replying to outlined one major example where IoT security was improved: wireless routers. Not allowing users to update the software on the hardware they own is just a botnet waiting to happen.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by dboreham on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:39AM (#37393206)
99% of users don't know their iot devices have firmware nor that it can be updated.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by computerfriend on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:41AM (#37393253)
Maybe that figure would change if the firmware could indeed be updated.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by NegativeK on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:06PM (#37393702)
It would change, but again -- it wouldn't be appreciable.

Security policy is needed that accounts for the behaviors of the vast majority of users.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by Larrikin on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:00PM (#37394648)
Users update their phones, there's no reason they can't be educated to update their other devices
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by NegativeK on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:36PM (#37395136)
Most non-technical users that I know don't actively update their phones and push back when I tell them that they need to do so faster than the automatic process because of an actively exploited vulnerability.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by CameronNemo on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:11PM (#37393799)
They may have trusted family members, friends, or neighbors who they feel comfortable allowing the management of their internet connected devices.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by charcircuit on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:35PM (#37394234)
No. As long as their iot device is still working consumers could care less about security updates.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by CameronNemo on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:50PM (#37394494)
What do you mean by "no"? Are you denying the existence of my grandparents who trust me to manage their devices?
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by navigate8310 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:20PM (#37394939)
This approach may function effectively with your close family members. However, it can sometimes fail when your cousins won't let you near their IoT devices because they view you as the hacker or tech enthusiast who might tamper with their gadgets.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by CameronNemo on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:29PM (#37395047)
So what? Just because there are some atypical people doesn't make it a "no".
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by charcircuit on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:58PM (#37396160)
I am saying that people like you are not enough to help the 99% of people who have an iot product.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by CameronNemo on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:51PM (#37396889)
Apart from Smart TVs, most people don't have an IoT device to begin with.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by i_am_jl on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @06:30PM (#37398689)
Smart speakers, printers, thermostats, light bulbs, security cameras, door bells, locks, smartwatches, TV sticks...
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by CameronNemo on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:50AM (#37401707)
I don't count a watch as an IoT device. And most on the market are Apple devices.

Apart from printers and smart TVs, less than half of US households have any of those other devices.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1124290/smart-home-devic...

Anecdotally, most people I know who own those devices are the more technically inclined. Especially the thermostats and light bulbs. Even the doorbell surveillance networks have low penetration.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by michaelt on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:44AM (#37393306)
Free software firmware would be great for free software lovers and tech experts, no doubt. But sophisticated users who'll take advantage of things like that are only 1% of the market.

But if the aim is to stop DDOSes from botnets of poorly secured IOT devices, we need something to help the other 99% of the market.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by trelane on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:01PM (#37393623)
> But sophisticated users who'll take advantage of things like that are only 1% of the market.

Most folks can't or won't do lots of things in their lives (e.g. plumbing, electrical, construction, lawn services, Automotive).

The main thing blocking routers and IoT devices is the control every vendor wants to hold over their customers' devices after sale.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by i_am_jl on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:50PM (#37394498)
Even if you give control to the users, it's up to them to use it.

I'd argue that the main blocker to IoT security is the lack of culpability on the part of device manufacturers. I don't want to go so far as to suggest that companies should be wholly liable for software bugs, but vulnerabilities that are brought to the attention of the company privately or disclosed publicly absolutely should be their responsibility to address.

For you or me (or most of the folks here I suspect) we feel better if we had the ability to decide what software our fridge runs, but for 99% of people they're better off if their fridge's manufacturer provides them with regular security updates for the life of their product.

That being said, these aren't mutually exclusive. In a perfect world we'd have laws compelling fridge companies to allow 3rd party software if they don't keep their firmware up to date.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by scj on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:36PM (#37401057)
I'd argue that in an ideal world, a fridge wouldn't have networking capabilities!

Even if I don't buy one, I dread to think of what might happen if enough fridges across the world stopped working all at once (demand for non-perishable food and fridges would skyrocket).

For the sake of consumer safety in our imperfect world, there should be a safe-mode hard switch fallback for any life-critical and/or high wattage device that gets networked.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by i_am_jl on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:44AM (#37393311)
I'm sure the number of routers running OpenWRT is dwarfed by the number of OpenWRT-compatible routers running vulnerable, stock firmware.

Allowing people to install software on their hardware isn't a cure for vulnerabilities. It's a step in the right direction for sure, but it's a very small one from the perspective of something as huge as "IoT security".

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by dtaht on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:52PM (#37395336)
We have worked very hard in the OpenWrt and Linux projects to make it easy to update them in the field. Linux distros, android, apple, openwrt, etc have this facility built in now. IoT should also.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by i_am_jl on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:45PM (#37396804)
Devices should have the ability to run whatever software the user chooses. My point is that simply allowing this isn't enough to ensure those devices are secure.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by markhahn on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @02:07PM (#37408777)
but that's just because manufacturers desperately hide the fact that their own firmaware is based on OSS, and that there are alternate stacks available.

imagine instead that vendors had to acknowlege the structure of their firmware, and make the (usually obvious) hardware interface documented from sale. that would automatically solve the issue of out-of-support(-by-vendor) hw.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by notatoad on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:15PM (#37393865)
replacing the firmware can allow knowledgeable users who want to secure their devices to improve the security. it can also allow malicious actors to replace the firmware (or trick users into replacing the firmware) with something less secure. allowing users to replace the software on the hardware they own is also a botnet waiting to happen.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by sroussey on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:29PM (#37394096)
The solution without free firmware (and I don’t like this) is that the device bricks itself at the end of its scheduled lifetime.

Which is to say, you are buying a multi-year lease up front. And the manufacturer should send you a recycling return box.

This is a more honest way to sell these devices.

Consumers that would not care about length of security updates will suddenly very much care how long their “lease” is… and manufacturers would compete on the length of that lease (which is where the FCC could require security updates for the length of the lease period).

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by yjftsjthsd-h on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:44PM (#37394398)
That just forces e-waste. Aftermarket firmware lets a device stay useful indefinitely.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by dtaht on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:54PM (#37395362)
Agreed. I fully expect to see the routers we used in the cerowrt project from 2008 still operational for 10-20 more years. Thereś one out there with 4+ years of uptime that I know of.

https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/an_upgrade_in_place/

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by weberer on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:45AM (#37393327)
It allows users to replace insecure software with secure software. And it allows updates long after the company drops official support of the device.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by hannob on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:59AM (#37393591)
That's great for the 0,1% of users who will do that. As said: I'm all for it. But the problem is the other 99,9%.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by fallingknife on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @04:13PM (#37397102)
Seriously. I'm a SWE and I would throw out a TV and get a new one before spending hours minimum figuring out how to switch the firmware to a open source version.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by weberer on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @05:28PM (#37398009)
Because right now we have to actually perform some exploit to run custom firmware most of the time. What if there were just a toggle in the settings menu for which repo to look at?
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by fallingknife on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @07:33PM (#37399293)
Probably not, honestly. I get paid to do things like manage dependencies, and I'm not trying to do it at home. If this was one and done, just click a button and forget about it again, then maybe, but if I have to do things like think about what model number I have, and is it compatible with this version of the firmware, then no way.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by the4anoni on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:28AM (#37393016)
As far as I remember FCC about 8 years ago didn't liked OpenWRT, and even enforced on TP Link to lock it.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by SoftTalker on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:37AM (#37393171)
IIRC the main objection was that it could be used to do something with the radio (boost power?) that caused the device to exceed FCC limits for a consumer radio? Something along those lines?
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by PhilipRoman on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:49AM (#37393408)
For those out of the loop these documents have a good introduction to how free software interacts with radio regulations

https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/developers/regulatory/st... https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/developers/regulatory

TLDR manufacturers and "serious" companies won't touch anything that could potentially be configured to emit signals that your local government doesn't like. So Linux has to pretend it doesn't allow to do that (even though anyone with 2 braincells can patch it)

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by dtaht on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:50PM (#37395303)
As these regulations change frequently, I am glad that linux makes it possible to update this database and the devices in the field. For example a portion of the 5.9ghz spectrum became available.

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2993112/vint-cerf-and-...

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by codedokode on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:12PM (#37395590)
So Linux takes government's side, not user's?
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by chupasaurus on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @05:04AM (#37402811)
I'd call it "safe defaults".
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by RF_Savage on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:55AM (#37393496)
It was about the radio and being able to modify the radio firmware.

As many modifications would void the FCC certifications of the device, due to changed parameters (more power, disabled anti-interface mitigations, out-of-band channels, etc.). This was avoided by making the radio firmware separate blobs, but there was a real danger of the whole device having to have signed firmware.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by pgeorgi on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:44PM (#37395223)
The main issue these days is the 5GHz band that might interfere with radar. That's mostly an issue outside near an airport, that is, it affects practically nobody, so the solution is to snoop the problematic bands and disable them when detecting radar signals, and use them otherwise for a bandwidth boost.

These days this seems to be mostly done in wifi chip firmware (that is then signed and under lock and wrap to make it tamper proof), but back in the day it was too easy to circumvent the mechanism.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by tzs on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:01PM (#37393607)
There was no requirement that firmware be locked down.

The requirement was that consumer radio transmitters could be too easily made to use frequencies and power levels that violate FCC regulations.

If a device had a transmitter where firmware could control those things, and the firmware for the device was one blob that contained everything so letting the user replace firmware meant letting the user control those restricted parameters, then the manufacturer might have to lock the firmware.

There were other possible approaches. One would be to split the firmware into two parts. One part for the radio hardware and the other for everything else. Make it so the firmware update process only allows the manufacturer to supply the first part.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by Y_Y on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:49PM (#37394482)
Isn't that a bit overreaching? I can make you a device the spews garbage on any wavelength you fancy, so they're really only preventing accidental radio pollution. Even in that case it's pretty unusual to prevent a consumer device (other than a radio) from being used in an unlawful way, Part 15 notwithstanding.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by zamadatix on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:08PM (#37394773)
I believe the regulation applies to such a device you make as well, not specifically consumer Wi-Fi products. I.e. if you make a transmitting SDR it's not supposed to allow certain things.

The prevention all comes down to enforcement though, the law doesn't physically stop you from making a device it just means you could get in trouble for intentionally ignoring it and selling a lot of those devices.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by Y_Y on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:16PM (#37394886)
You're totally right. I'm trying to make a moral argument, I think if it were unfeasible for an individual to make something (e.g. modern CPU) then you could make an argument for producers limiting them on the basis that it would effectively prevent anyone from doing the banned thing. The fact that it's roughly as easy to reflash an IoT device with custom firmware as it is to make an antenna that produces noise in a forbidden frequency means that you are adding a technical measure to prevent just some of that illegal action and not stopping a determined hacker.

I'm not claiming it wouldn't be an overall social good, but other areas of law and regulation don't seem to function like this (with notable exceptions like photocopying banknotes).

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by zamadatix on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:57PM (#37401182)
The (particular) law isn't actually aimed at stopping those who just want to go into their garage and produce illegal interference out of malice. E.g. people can create 200 Watt space heaters in their garage easily but it'd be odd to then conclude CPU regulations wouldn't stop people from doing bad things with CPUs.

That is to say, it's infeasible the average someone will make a working Wi-Fi radio which uses the Japanese channel 14 (involves changing what is sent by the radio, not just raising the frequency... unless you want to accurately re-adjust the frequency inside of your smartphone too) but it is reasonable to expect the average someone might just load some open firmware from the internet which allows them to set the channel to 14.

I will say I agree it's different than a lot of regulation. On the other thing I think that has more to do with radio space itself being very different than most things (i.e. a shared public resource) than inconsistency.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by tzs on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @05:54PM (#37398292)
People were asking online for help dealing with WiFi interference, and were getting answers telling them how to install open source firmware on their WiFi routers, and giving them exact commands and configuration changes that would set the power higher than was legally allowed or stop them from avoiding channels that were being used by active weather radar (5 GHz WiFi shares channels with weather radar and is supposed to monitor and only use those channels when the radar is not in use).

I suppose you could call that accidental radio pollution, because most of the people doing it probably didn't realize that they were causing interference, but regardless it was becoming a problem.

Hence regulations to address it.

That's the world we're in now. You have a problem, you do a search online for help, and among the answers you often will find some that really should only be used by people with more experience or expertise than you but do not make that clear.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by dtaht on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:48PM (#37395279)
Vint Cerf and I shot that proposed anti-dd-wrt regulation down thoroughly: filing here:

http://www.taht.net/~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf

Substitute IoT for router in everything we wrote there on page 12-13 and that seems to be a starting point everyone around here has come to think is necessary. I would prefer not to summarize such a large filing here.

Also Dan Geer wrote extensively on these topics at the time.

Of late I have been strongly suggesting that software be at least "built in america": https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/an_upgrade_in_place/

I care most deeply first - that the front doors to our houses, the home gateways, are properly secured, kept up to date, and have ipv6 and bufferbloat fixes on them.

IoT devices belong on their own vlan...

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by Finnucane on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:36AM (#37393143)
This is kind of adjunct to the right-to-repair question. "Smart" features are being added to things that a person would expect to have a long usable lifetime--like cars, kitchen appliances, and so on. If the manufacturer is saying, we'll only support the "smart" features for five years, one would be inclined to opt out on that unless there is a way to ensure the appliance remains useful.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by entropyie on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @11:47AM (#37393366)
This is also a key point to fighting ewaste and making devices last longer. I have appliances from the 70s including a rotary telephone, that I still use regularly. If you combined mandatory OSS support with repair cafes, you would have a model for sustainable reuse and better security. You may even start a commercial aftermarket in reflashing older devices!
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by treyd on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:32PM (#37394167)
Yeah if companies that make IoT hardware complain about the costs to keep old devices updated then they should be required to make them more user-modifiable and release source code / signing keys when they're abandoned by their manufacturer so that they can be picked up by the communities and development can be continued (also requires some policing to determine when hardware is functionally abandoned, as releasing a minor update once a year that doesn't fix real bugs should still be considered abandoned). Repair cafes would be fantastic for helping support small businesses keeping people's old hardware running.

Of course, manufacturers don't want that either because they make money off of planned obsolescence and consumers keeping old hardware running makes them less likely to buy old hardware.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by 1000100_1000101 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:49PM (#37394477)
Releasing Signing keys seems a potentially dangerous one. Someone could produce malicious firmware, sign it, and convince your device to auto-update with it.

I think (and I'm a security know-nothing, so could very well be off in the weeds), the firmware should accept updates signed with two keys. The manufacturer key, which can allow automatic updates, and a post-service key that cannot be automatic. Either a user has to initiate the firmware update manually, or consent via some other means.

This post-service firmware may very well enable a third key for automatic updates of its own, so there's just a manual step on the transition from manufacturer to some community project you support, not each revision afterwards.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by treyd on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:38PM (#37396698)
Presumably they'd remove the auto-update functionality before releasing signing keys and require that it be physically loaded by a user at that point.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by 1000100_1000101 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @10:54PM (#37400841)
That's assuming they make a final firmware update. Having the 2nd manual key available from day 1 ensures the device is unlockable with just a release of the key. Having a 2nd key or a signed unlock firmware update I guess are two ways to achieve the same goal, but the 2nd key would be better. The 2nd key likely stay in place forever, in each update, while the unlock firmware would likely end up remaining as the original firmware, because why would most vendors build two firmwares for each release. It would sit forgotten on a drive somewhere. The use of original unlock firmware could mean making a device vulnerable between loading the unlock firmware and the community firmware, so the 2nd key is preferred. It's always ready.

Ideally, the key would also be pre-registered somewhere to ensure they can't skip out on releasing it, but I'm not sure how you do that without it potentially leaking before the device reaches end of support. I guess a code sitting in a lawyer's vault somewhere. Again, nobody is paying the lawyer to refresh his vault's firmware image after each patch, so 2nd key wins over unlock firmware again.

Why a lawyer's vault? I know lots of people would love to take ownership of the device immediately, but from the device creator's perspective, they tend not to like that... especially if a device is a source of subscription revenue. So I'm not sure how you'd get vendor buy in to early release unless it becomes mandatory... which I can't see.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by phero_cnstrcts on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:10PM (#37395573)
At rotary phones still compatible with todays standards? If that’s the case I might get one too.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by dpifke on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:09PM (#37396324)
It's been years since I've seen a landline, but as of a ~decade ago you could still dial "rotary" by tapping the receiver hook with the correct spacing. (1 click to dial a "1," 2 clicks to dial a "2," etc. with a pause between digits.)
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by entropyie on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @02:24AM (#37401878)
In my case I use a small gadget to convert the pulses to DTMF tones, which feed into a voip connection. The point is that the device itself still works, unlike much iot crap which can't be made to work once the server goes down.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by Ajedi32 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:17PM (#37393906)
I'm a big supporter of the idea of applying right to repair principles to software, but I don't think it should (or legally can) be implemented by fiat of unelected bureaucrats at the FCC. Labeling requirements like what the OP is proposing seem much more palatable to me.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by ChrisCinelli on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:21PM (#37393982)
Openwrt is not the best example. Community sucks, some routers are full of bugs and the security is not great either.

In general even if I like open devices and having the option to use my own software, this is not a solution for most of the consumers.

It is not a solution even for the enthusiast that know how to flash their own firmware. Because even if they may do it a few times initially, eventually they stop doing it.

You need a system that can update automatically even when you are busy in another project.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by abwizz on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:41PM (#37394324)
openwrt is surely lacking in many aspects, but all the points you brought forward also apply to the manufacturer firmware but those are even less user friendly and cannot be modified.

there are a lot of open and closed firmware projects building upon openwrt

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by ChrisCinelli on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:59PM (#37394635)
I am not clear how "all the points you brought forward also apply to the manufacturer firmware"
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by adventured on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:28PM (#37395037)
> but all the points you brought forward also apply to the manufacturer firmware but those are even less user friendly and cannot be modified.

That's more than a reach of a claim. All manufacturer firmware are buggy with poor security? That's very obviously false. With closed manufacturers the history is that it's a mixed bag, not a blanket. Some are excellent, some are very poor.

Openwrt has been mediocre and all the negatives about it do not equally apply to all closed manufacturer firmware.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by abwizz on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @04:13AM (#37402517)
> All manufacturer firmware are buggy with poor security? That's very obviously false.

guess we have a difference of opinion then

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by petsfed on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:11PM (#37396351)
There is absolutely no scenario where I want the firmware of any of my infrastructure devices updating without my say so. Even if there are dire security consequences of not updating.

If a firmware update on my smart watch bricks it, who cares? But if my entire house/office is without internet connection because of a bug in the router update, then I don't want to waste time determining if its my ISP, my physical connection, my local hardware, or the firmware update that just occurred silently. I want to send the "update" command, note that network response did not resume within 5 minutes, and revert from there.

A lot of folks tend to think of firmware updates as identical in complexity and risk to any other software update. I submit that if it can't go wrong in such a way that it requires an in-system-programmer to fix, its a software update, not a firmware update.

In that sense, I think true firmware updates (e.g. BIOS updates and the like) require a different set of regulations than your standard IoT security updates.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by ale42 on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @05:05AM (#37402819)
I see two essential points (that might have been addressed in another comment somewhere else in the thread, but I can't read everything) regarding pushed firmware updates:

• It happens, especially if the update has been a "quick fix" to a security issue, that the update introduces unexpected behaviours, or incompatibilities. Supposing this was just a "security-only" update that doesn't change any features, I would approve it, and then discover it breaks something in my installation (e.g., compatibility with a specific device or software I'm using). In that case, I need to be able to rollback the update and run the previous firmware version (possibly mitigating the security issue in another way, if it's properly documented) to avoid serious issues that, depending on the device, might prevent important equipment from being operated.

• For firmware updates that include more than security fixed, approval and the possibility of rolling back is even more important. It's quite common that updates remove seldom-used features a minority of users depend on. It even happens that some features get removed and replaced by subscription-only services, which is even worse.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by MarcoPerazaFCC on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:32PM (#37395088)
Maybe the presence or absence of this capability could be something disclosed on the label? It's an idea worth thinking about. I encourage you to file a comment with your thoughts on the matter. You probably want to focus on how this information could help a security-concerned consumer/business make a better purchasing decision. Or if you're arguing that this be a hard-requirement for label, why a device should not be considered secure without this capability.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by basch on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:33PM (#37395102)
Also, one of the single most important parts of security is human manageability. Having to go into a proprietary app for each manufacturer.

There's this level of management at the google/amazom/apple level, and in some cases google even lets me push firmware updates (sennheiser ambeo is an example), BUT there should be a requirement that security settings in firmware be exposed in a way that they can be manipulated in a rolled up dashboard. I shouldn't have to depend on a first party app to stay maintained to get to the settings for a device.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by ics on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:46PM (#37395251)
Possibly weird idea: federal firmware escrow. The OEM gets to put a stamp on their product after submitting firmware source/keys to the FCC. When the OEM either declares the product not supported or provides no updates for X length of time, the files are automatically published to a public repository. Perhaps there is an appropriate license which says essentially that it is almost public domain, with an exception (or fee?) to use it for any purpose other than supporting the lifetime of an existing product.

As others have stated, free software is one way of giving the public ability to keep things up to date but that's almost like the government saying people are allowed to clean up pollution. It doesn't put any pressure on companies to behave better.

Another issue is build-ability of open source code. If an OEM submits firmware source and keys to a third party, even regularly, who really knows whether it is actually functional and complete. Automated tests or sample hardware are possible ideas but have their own failure modes and could be difficult for to implement solely for this purpose.

Another weird idea for the above. If one requirement was deterministic builds, then in addition to source/keys, a suitable toolchain to build could also be required such that the repository stewards would only need to run exactly what the OEM provides, and if the checksums don't match then it means they are not in compliance.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by bick_nyers on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:10PM (#37395574)
This is an amazing idea and I would only buy a product that has this stamp on them. I would put some additional triggers into the publication of source code as well, notably if the company goes out of business. I would also put some kind of timer and renewal process on it, like a company needs to recertify every 1-5 years (pros and cons to different time lengths) and that they have indeed been providing actual updates (and not just fake ones) and actual support.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by ics on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:18PM (#37395673)
The OEM could be allowed to choose their recertification period, perhaps with slight differences in requirements. Perhaps even different options offered by company size. For example 1-5 employee companies might get a "no recertification, provided as-is" option which releases automatically 3 years after filing. Vendors who re-certify every 6 months could get an extra mark on their stamp or whatever. There are tons of possibilities honestly, and though I've been thinking about it for a long time writing it is much easier to come up with more.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by monch1962 on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @07:27PM (#37399225)
Agree this approach seems to be worth investigating further, but as a citizen of a non-US country, I'd like to see a solution that wasn't based on a US-centric set of controls and governance bodies.

These days, with nationalism and populism rampant across the world, I think we need a solution where no one country (or country's leader) can simply decide to turn off critical infrastructure for the rest of the world and/or hold the rest of the world to ransom. Then you run into questions of "do we really want (insert bad country) to be able to expose IOT source code to their evil hackers?".

This is a really difficult problem to solve, but ultimately I think ownership of the "keys" to unlock escrowed code needs to reside with (winging it here...) a body such as IEEE or ISO. Or possibly something like a global council where e.g. any 5 countries out of 7 can collaborate via a sharing of keys to release source code, but no one country is able to do so.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by ics on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @08:02PM (#37399557)
I completely agree that such a thing should not be US-only. There would need to be a clear distinction between one-gov't backdoor and voluntary regulatory certification, because ultimately the goal would be for other countries to follow suit and provide similar/identical certifications. You could look to standards bodies to provide standard implementation details on what "firmware escrow" is, what exact formats and files must be included, etc. IEEE, ISO, JIS, DIN, and all of them could write or adopt the document. But actually running the service and providing the certification is a little closer to a patent office than organizing standards which is why I propose doing it federally. Think Energy Star (which is a US gov't program based on EPA standards) which has been implemented successfully outside of the US.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by punnerud on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:32PM (#37396608)
Classic tech to think of technical solutions to a regulatory problem, but I like it.

Could have the code run in a sandbox where people can apply “external” network traffic trying to hack it (or apply vulnerabilities), inspired by how you can run ML models on kaggle.org on Kaggle servers to validate models.

Have end-points as honney-pots, so if you can access these endpoint you prove you have compromised the code.

If there is no new code with patches the keys are released.

This way FCC/gov don’t need to maintain a technical system. Just build this once.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by agloe_dreams on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:17PM (#37395666)
So this feels like an amazing idea...but do we really want to give the federal government the keys to update your equipment remotely and to be able to pinpoint weaknesses of the source? This feels like Edward Snowden's grimmest nightmare.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by ics on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:30PM (#37395827)
Framed like that, it sounds terrible. However, consider this:

[1] This discussion is about a federal agency providing certification of products essentially in the form of a stamp (on a device, website, etc.). Nothing is stopping a vendor from committing to and offering the same thing but without government involvement. This could easily be a selling point for the paranoid. Something something blockchain and smart contracts...

[2] Even though we're discussing IoT devices, it's not necessary that they be capable of updating over the air 24/7. Creative engineers could probably devise a method to prevent complete remote takeover by anyone holding the keys– physical switches, additional authentication required during the support period, etc.

[3] Personally, I think the federal government getting access to keys for any IoT device made/sold in the US is the only part of this idea that could already be happening. They can knock on doors or mail subpoenas, plant moles, etc. I would be much more comfortable with a technical solution on the physical device than any presumption of privacy in the current state.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by Xelynega on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:27PM (#37395789)
As I understand that's not what's being proposed. The "keys" in this case would decrypt the encrypted source code that's available in a public repository, and there's some logical mechanism(and actual use for smart contracts) that would key the key in escrow until certain conditions are met(company doesn't renew, goes out of business, etc.) After which it will be publicly released so anyone can decrypt the already available encrypted source code
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by kristianbrigman on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @03:43PM (#37396777)
And what happens if the server holding the keys gets compromised? I guess most manufacturers won’t care, but the more reputable ones would have things in their source they consider proprietary and would definitely not want to have to submit it.

Verification that it is, in fact, the actual shipped source might not be trivial either.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by bick_nyers on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @10:49PM (#37400818)
What happens when someone hacks GitHub and gains access to private repositories? That slim possibility doesn't stop the vast majority of companies from hosting their source in a private repo.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by unintendedcons on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:58PM (#37395412)
I like this idea! A code&keys escrow org, yes please
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by dredmorbius on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @04:31PM (#37397297)
A challenge to this sort of suggestion is that the device OEM rarely controls all the software which goes into a device. There are third-party modules, hardware drivers, and more, which are also components. Then there are patents.

Either the escrow would have to apply to all software on the device, regardless of whether owned by the OEM or third parties, or OEMs would be required to vouch for all the included software.

I'd prefer the former myself: multiple software and patent assets can be combined, but on support EOL, all those become public domain.

Build / release / update toolchains must also be included.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by MayeulC on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @04:45PM (#37397499)
I have been thinking that something along these lines should apply to most embedded systems, from mobile phones to game consoles to IoT devices. And more, for cases when companies go under: industrial control automation, etc.

However, it's very hard to police: what if the company only provides a header file or so? Or the basic OS but not the UI?

Moreover, what counts as "support"? There have been cases where companies refuse to consider remote code execution a "security issue". What's to prevent token updates that let the company claim a product is supported while it's riddled with holes?

I could also see companies fighting teeth and nails against this if their devices share a common software base. But hey, you have your support incentive right there!

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by fidotron on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @04:48PM (#37397531)
The problem here is the government can’t be trusted with the signing keys. They will simply use them to deploy their botnets.
Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by caust1c on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @02:05PM (#37395483)
I like this angle. Require device manufacturers to actually comply with OSS licenses and extend it to require providing the means for consumers to build upon the software as you mention.

Furthermore, if the concern is national security, then I think some of the onus should be on the corporate consumers of such devices. Holding them responsible for doing due diligence on their vendors seems easier to regulate and enforce than trying to regulate supply side.

Of course, this leaves the general population without a clear solution to updates if the process of updating using alternate channels has any amount of friction whatsoever. I'm clueless as to what to do about that. Regulating it entrenches established companies. Not regulating it maintains the status quo.

Anecdotally, it feels like software has gotten far more secure in the past decade without regulation but security theater and concerns around national security have grown considerably faster. This isn't easy to measure of course, but that's how I see it.

Re:Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of I... by carride on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @09:04AM (#37404524)
The best alternative firmware example for true IOT devices is Tasmota [1]. Erase manufacturer firmware for every ESP devices the day after purchase to avoid those careless manufacturer firmwares.

[1] https://tasmota.github.io/docs/