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Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by dingnuts on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:37PM (#37324677)
>even the lightest SUV here is doing something like 3.5x the damage compared to a Honda Civic

this is crazy to consider when you know that parents with three children in car seats cannot find a sedan that can hold three car seats, and wagons disappeared to be replaced by SUVs because of... EPA emissions standards.

So it could be argued that the emission standards are the cause of this extra wear, which is additionally ironic when you consider asphalt is an oil product

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by Zak on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:41PM (#37324774)
> wagons disappeared to be replaced by SUVs because of... EPA emissions standards

I think that's only half-true. In the US, people weren't buying many wagons when they were available. For the majority of people who don't use their SUVs off road, this seems irrational. I've heard a number of people say that the higher seating position makes them feel safer, though that feeling is not reality-based.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by delecti on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:45PM (#37324845)
I think it's a tragedy of the commons situation. Driving an SUV feels safer because there are more other vehicles you can see over to keep appraised of your surroundings, but that also makes it harder for the drivers of those other vehicles.
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by redundantly on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:48PM (#37324913)
> I've heard a number of people say that the higher seating position makes them feel safer, though that feeling is not reality-based.

It is based in reality, albeit a kind of self fulfilling prophecy.

As more and more taller cars (large SUVs and pickup trucks) appear on the road the more dangerous it is for smaller cars. The crumple zones on a compact or sedan don't do much good when the front and rear bumpers of SUVs and trucks clear the hoods of smaller cars, effectively putting the bumper at eye level.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by Zak on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:03PM (#37325239)
> * the front and rear bumpers of SUVs and trucks clear the hoods of smaller cars, effectively putting the bumper at eye level*

I expected that to be illegal, but it seems that it is not in the US. A quick look suggests that for typical unmodified SUVs the issue affects repair costs more than occupant injuries. Homebuilt monster trucks are, of course another issue.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by jandrewrogers on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:30PM (#37325708)
SUVs aren't made for off-road [0], the functional ones are made for poor road conditions. Subaru has targeted that market segment quite successfully with light, low-cost cars with AWD and high ground clearance. In some parts of the US, especially the western half, an AWD with high ground clearance is often a practical requirement due to the geography and weather risks even if you never go off-road.

[0] The original "sport-utility vehicles" were built for off-road usage and had 4WD but that hasn't been true of almost anything marketed as an SUV for decades.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by Arrath on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:45PM (#37325958)
> In some parts of the US, especially the western half, an AWD with high ground clearance is often a practical requirement due to the geography and weather risks even if you never go off-road.

This is exactly why Subarus are massively popular in Alaska.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by ricardobayes on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @02:13PM (#37326447)
Not sure about that. For a long time, the go-to "dad car" was a wagon, with wooden siding.
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by parasense on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @04:01PM (#37328142)
> For the majority of people who don't use their SUVs off road, this seems irrational.

Because that's a kind of regulatory fiction, right there.

So let's cut the crap!

For the majority of the so-called SUV market the "s" in SUV is a long lost myth, and if we're being honest then it's just Utility-Vehicle (UV). But you say they sit higher off the road, perhaps that's technically correct, but actually false when compared to off-road vehicles. But we've already acknowledged SUV's are not really off road vehicles, but rather normal passenger vehicles with normal road tires, normal suspensions, and lower center's of gravity. The Model-y is really just a slightly taller/longer version of the model-3. But how much higher, well if you look at the ground clearance, then it's only ~1 inches higher off the ground. But overall the vehicle is taller, will a larger overhead canopy, and the seats are places over booster blocks to raise the eye-level higher. It's really an illusion, the Model-y is really just a sedan, that technically meets the minimum requirements to say it's an SUV. You can safely consider the modern SUV as the equivalence of old-school station-wagons.

If it waddles like a duck... quacks like a duck... you might be dealling with ducks my dude.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by webdood90 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:42PM (#37324791)
or is it having children?
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by asow92 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:54PM (#37325066)
Population replacement rate is at least 2.1 kids per couple. What are you suggesting here, bud?
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by zqfm on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:52PM (#37325018)
nope
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by saiya-jin on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:46PM (#37324855)
This is not true, at least not in Europe. Wagons/sedans didn't disappear, we drive recent BMW 5 series and there are plenty of others (Audi A6, Skoda Superb, VW Passat, Mercedes and so on and on). Its as wide as it gets and you can buy official or unofficial conversion of back seat into 3-same-seat row. You just click a conversion layer into ISOFIX from what I recall.

It doesn't magically make back row wider, so you can't fit comfortably 3 taller adults regardless of seat arrangements, but 3 child seats are easy. It then has exactly same space as usual 3-seaters like Seat Alhambra, its VW equivalent etc. but you drive much better, more powerful and also safer car (ie frontal crumple zones).

If you think about 3 solid wide seats for 3 adults, such a car wouldn't fit in regular parking spot in most EU/Switzerland and struggled on narrower roads, yeah we normally don't do that kind of stuff here since roads and parking spaces are shared among everybody.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by wazoox on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:52PM (#37325002)
"Wagons" are Chrysler Voyager, Renault Scenic, Citroën Picasso, Volkswagen Golf Plus, Toyota Prius+ and those have almost entirely disappeared (Golf Plus and Prius Plus aren't made anymore; Picasso will disappear this year, etc).

BMW series 5, Audi A6 etc are sedans. These are strongly declining too; SUVs make more about 40% of sales of new vehicles in Europe.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by felixfbecker on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:10PM (#37325353)
The Audi A6 comes in both a sedan and wagon (hatch back) variant (named "Avant"), I would assume saiya-jin was referring to the wagon variant. The only wagon variants sold in the US are the "allroad quattro" variant and the RS6 though.
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by jeroen on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:18PM (#37325487)
Same for the 5-series, the Passat, and others mentioned. Those are available as wagons in Europe and still seem to sell well, based on what I see on the roads.
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by sokoloff on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:02PM (#37325222)
The Audi A6 Allroad is definitely a wagon. BMW had a 5-series wagon but stopped selling it in the US a little over a decade ago.
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by saiya-jin on Thursday August 31, 2023 @04:23AM (#37334071)
You are a bit lost and clearly no clue what you comment about, I personally have BMW 5 series wagon (F11 model to be precise). VW has Passat wagon, Skoda has Octavia/Superb wagon etc. I see them here in Europe much more often than sedans, if you go for big car you usually also want the maximum trunk space.
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by theshrike79 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:48PM (#37324923)
A side note: there are special 3 or 4 seater car seats that are one integrated section and can fit on a normal sedan's back seat.

"Multimac" is the first brand that came up on Google: https://thetravelhack.com/blog/multimac-car-seat-review/

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by betenoire on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:50PM (#37324955)
I'm not sure about this, there are still many wagons out there. They don't have those classic wood panels and tacky colors, and the backwards facing rear seats are gone, but aren't these Outbacks and similarly shaped vehicles wagons?

Regarding car seats, they are just THAT much bigger these days. My family had 3 car seats in a rabbit, in the early 80s.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by xp84 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:58PM (#37325127)
> parents with three children in car seats cannot find a sedan that can hold three car seats,

This is a categorically untrue myth. Lots of car seats are stupidly wide thrones, but there is no reason you have to buy those ridiculous things. Diono makes a full line of car seats which fit 3-across in any midsize car. They're even cheaper than a lot of seats from the biggest brands, starting under $200. [1]

People are buying SUVs because they want them and because we've made it attractive to do so:

* Externalize excess road wear costs onto all taxpayers due to gas tax

* Overall trends contributed to pathetic selection of good sedans

* Finally, Reasonable fears that since "everyone else" is driving 3-ton monstrosities, perhaps they won't be safe in a car 5 feet shorter than the truck that hits them.

It won't be easy to reverse any of this, since the only lever is to replace gas tax with a fair road tax like this Norway one -- the rest of them are functions of the trend. Sadly, anything that raises taxes on a majority of Americans (those who drive big SUV things) would be political suicide.

[1] https://store.diono.com/radian-3r/ (No affiliation with them, though I've purchased 4 of these so far personally.)

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by jonhohle on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:18PM (#37325475)
If a gas tax was replaced wholesale with a mileage tax I don't think I'd be too upset, however, how do you deal with out of state use, work vehicles that spend most of their time on job sites as opposed to roads, when and how is it assessed and collected, etc. If a mileage tax was added without repealing the gas tax, I don't think it would go over to well.

Historically gas was a reasonable proxy for road use, but that is going to be increasingly untrue. It's reasonable to see EVs as a tax dodge against road use taxation that can primarily be taken advantage of by the well-off, but in AZ it's $100-$200 a year.

Either give EVs a 1¢/mile use tax or give everyone the tax and remove the gas tax, or drop them both and become more efficient ;-).

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by pests on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @02:22PM (#37326593)
1 cent a mile might be losing money in some areas!

Registration in Michigan for a Model 3 is over $500 a year and used to be closer to $700.

If you assume 12,000 miles a year that's only $720 total since the 3's release at 1 cent a mile.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by giantg2 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:07PM (#37325301)
"Externalize excess road wear costs onto all taxpayers due to gas tax"

This is true for electric or hybrid, but in general, heavier ICE vehicles will have lower economy which means they buy more fuel and pay more fuel taxes. In many states trucks cost more to register too. So it's probably pretty close to proportional.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by hedgehog on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @02:09PM (#37326362)
You're half right about the seats but seats that fit three across in a normal small SUV or sedan are a small share of what's available. I also think it's worth segmenting out SUVs now that everything has become an SUV. The Corolla Cross is an "SUV" but really compact. A RAV4 is an "SUV" and one of the most popular vehicles sold in the US but it's only slightly heavier than a Camry and gets about the same fuel economy (because it's basically a tall hatchback Camry). Even the next size up (Highlander) is about the same weight as a mini van (Sienna). Weight based tax seems like a good idea to me but I don't think "SUVs" are in general really the problem.
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by xp84 on Thursday September 07, 2023 @06:18PM (#37426382)
> seats that fit three across in a normal small SUV or sedan are a small share of what's available.

Nobody's forcing anybody to buy the giant ones, though, so a few good choices existing is enough that "car seats" isn't a reason on its own to buy an SUV.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by xp84 on Thursday September 07, 2023 @06:24PM (#37426446)
And fair point that SUVs aren't automatically enormous, nor automatically super harmful, except in how deadly their genre-defining high stance is to pedestrians and children.

It just seems super wasteful to me the number of vehicle-miles that are driven in the suburbs by enormous and medium-sized ("Tall Hatchback Camry") SUVs with a single driver carrying a couple bags of groceries. Most of the time, most commuters and even people with up to 2 small children ought to be perfectly fine driving a 4-door compact, which is substantially more fuel-efficient and lighter than even the midsize SUVs. But the incentives don't exist to make people consider that. They figure, "Oh well, I'll spend $25 extra on gas each month but it's worth it so that I can transport lumber once a year."

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by bombcar on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:00PM (#37325179)
The wagon was replaced by the minivan and the minivan is dying.

https://diono.com/diono-journal/the-original-and-the-best-3-... solves the three car seat problem even in a smallish sedan.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by ghaff on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:09PM (#37325340)
Quite a few of my whitewater paddling friends--who often have to shuttle people--prefer minivans over 3-row SUVs but, as you say, minvans have largely been replaced by SUVs which are IMO not really ideal if you regularly fill up the seats. (Even the best/biggest ones I've been in still require something of a do si do between people in the second and the third row.)
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by bombcar on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:20PM (#37325511)
It’s especially hard to find a nine seat SUV anymore - I don’t know if any offhand with a bench front seat.

The Kia Carnival seats 11 in Asia …

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by ghaff on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:28PM (#37325677)
I suspect that, in the US, there's a pretty strong bias to maximizing the comfort for the first and second person rather than being able to squeeze one more passenger in.
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by bombcar on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:35PM (#37325800)
Exactly this. All vehicles are sold to people who buy new vehicles and that cohort is more alike than they’d like to admit.

Commercial vehicles still have some variation because the purchaser is not the driver.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by otikik on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:03PM (#37325242)
> replaced by SUVs because of... EPA emissions standards.

That's the first time I hear this argument. I thought that SUVs replaced them because car makers found that they can justify a bigger price on a bigger, heavier vehicles. Intuitively an SUV should emit more (heavier vehicle, more wind resistance).

I know that John Deere used EPA emissions standards as a smoke screen for them of their unwilling to allow third-party repairs on their tractors. Perhaps they are using the same maneuver here?

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by rurounijones on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:16PM (#37325443)
> That's the first time I hear this argument.

SUVs and the like exploit a loophole in various standards like fuel efficiency requirements because they are not "cars" but "Light trucks" and therefore those standards don't apply to them; which makes them cheaper to design and build for automotive companies.

The "Light trucks" category was supposed to be used for light commercial vehicles, not personal vehicles but then the law of unintended consequences had a love-child with profit seeking corporations and their linguistic games.

Literally the only reason SUVs and trucks became popular is because the automotive manufacturers could make more money doing it that way and convinced the consumers to buy them. NotJustBikes did a good intro video on the subject.

* https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-lo...

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by deadbunny on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:21PM (#37325551)
They do have more emissions, they are however no longer classed as cars but "light trucks" which have different emission standards (much higher than cars).
Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by jonhohle on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @01:05PM (#37325269)
That's only true for triplet infants that require bassinet-style seats and even that might not be the case if you look hard enough. I had twins and a 3-year old in the back seat of an 1990 Infiniti G20. There are slim car seats specifically made for three in the back. It's tight, but it works.

I agree about wagons though. Subaru still makes them. The Lexus CT200h is pretty much a wagon. It would be nice to see more "crossovers" that took more from the sedan side, however, none of the modern ones have jump seats except (maybe ironically) the Tesla Model 3.

We've graduated to four kids which eliminates the vast majority of vehicles from our set of options. Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, and GM all make ≥6 passenger vehicles that are not-minivans, but the options are very limited and put you into the SUV category.

Re:Weight-based motor vehicle tax by piperswe on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @07:19PM (#37330398)
Lexus discontinued the CT in the US several years ago (globally last year), and it's a hatchback (not a wagon).