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Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by irrational on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @03:56PM (#37241290)
I work for a Fortune 100 company. Years ago they wanted to make sure that everyone in the same job was making the same amount of money (they were especially trying to make sure women were making as much as men). So they had an outside consulting group look at everyone’s salaries and adjusted them as needed to make sure they were all the same within $1. I ended up getting a $15k bump. They review it again every year to make sure nobody makes more or less than anyone else in the same job. The end result is there are no salary bands and no negotiation. The salary is what it is. You can’t even get $5 more dollars. They did this years ago and so far it hasn’t seemed to negatively affect us.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by victor9000 on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @04:02PM (#37241369)
It sounds like a great way to miss out on talent that can command a salary higher than the average, while simultaneously attracting talent for whom this is a good deal.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by emodendroket on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @04:31PM (#37241561)
Sure, it sounds that way, if we assume that negotiating skill and job performance are tightly correlated. But why should we assume that?
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by NewEntryHN on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @05:02PM (#37241812)
Above a certain threshold of talent, there is no need to negotiate at all.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by NoMoreNicksLeft on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @05:26PM (#37242051)
If the two traits are just randomly assorted, then sure, they'll rarely overlap at what is a statistically random rate.

But, if we can assume that the "rare talent" is anything other than straight out of college, they will have discovered that they are a rare talent, be aware of it themselves, and barring some sort of crippling neurosis, want to cash in on it. They might not even be skilled at negotiating... they'll just be aware that they have leverage.

We might even phrase the problem that way... that it's not so important that they have "negotiating skill", as it is that they have "leverage awareness".

Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by emodendroket on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @08:39PM (#37243763)
If it were that simple why would anyone need tips for salary negotiation? Even in pro sports, where the skills are extremely elite, all the performance stats and salaries are public, and the athletes have agents in their corner, the correlation between pay and performance is far from perfect, and negotiation mistakes can lead to players leaving huge sums on the table.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by nitwit005 on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @05:47PM (#37242294)
If you literally wrote the book on the subject, or something similar, they'll probably just create a job role for you.

But that said, not every company is trying to hire the best people. As you note, they're expensive.

Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by NoMoreNicksLeft on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @05:54PM (#37242370)
You'd think that, and it's probably even the smart strategy for the employer... But I remember what the guy who wrote homebrew said about his Google interview process.

Once an HR culture develops, anything sane or intelligent probably goes out the window.

Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by nitwit005 on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @07:12PM (#37243134)
Writing a popular app is hardly the same as being the top authority in a field.

I guarantee when Google hires someone like Ken Thompson, they do not get the normal Google hiring experience.

Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by irrational on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @08:23PM (#37243660)
A popular app? I hardly think homebrew is on the same level as candy crush.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by emodendroket on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @08:42PM (#37243779)
Yeah, Candy Crush is harder to reproduce.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by NoMoreNicksLeft on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @11:30PM (#37244681)
I also doubt that Kenny was having to do daily scrums and explain why the web ad wootigulizer algorithm hadn't had any progress since Monday. Long since in executive management, is my guess.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by Rapzid on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:03AM (#37246590)
Let me just preface that inverting a binary tree.. Maybe they wanted a particular answer and it was an off day.

That said, the author of Homebrew would be the top authority in the field of OSX package management yeah? I mean, Apple hasn't even bothered to create a competitor and yet every tech bro at Google using a MBP is going to need to install and use it..

Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by madeofpalk on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:16AM (#37246672)
IIRC the homebrew guy ended up going to Apple and worked on... Swift Package Manager. Or maybe I'm misremembering things
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by madeofpalk on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:14AM (#37246664)
Maybe the homebrew guy isn't a good hire?
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by umeshunni on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @11:37PM (#37244730)
There's an old Dilbert comic that said something like "We want to hire engineers who are really good at what they do, but cannot compare two salary numbers and identify which one is larger"
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by kazinator on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @11:39PM (#37244743)
[delayed]
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by emodendroket on Thursday August 24, 2023 @02:05PM (#37252448)
The problem isn't that; it's all the information you don't have such as "how much are they theoretically willing to pay me," "who else would hire me," "how hard can I push before they just pull the offer," "do they have other candidates they liked," and so on. On top of that, lots of people in this career are not smooth talkers and they're risk-averse.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by CodeBrad on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @04:33PM (#37241587)
You get what you pay for.

If there is a one off person who can command a higher salary, its unlikely they alone will make a huge difference to the company anyway.

If there are a lot of people who could command a higher salary in that role, the pay is too low.

Overall it seems like a pretty good system. You could argue that the current system favors people who are good at negotiating, and not necessarily more skilled workers.

Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by JohnFen on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @05:21PM (#37242011)
There are lots of people who aren't choosing jobs based solely on which one pays the most. I have absolutely taken positions that paid much less than I can command elsewhere because the companies in question offered me nonmonetary benefits that were worth more to me than money.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by thedougd on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @04:53PM (#37241714)
Whenever an employer talks about industry median pay, I ask if they want industry median work, or industry median talent and remind them that half of all will perform better.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by mateo411 on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @05:59PM (#37242399)
Not if everybody in the entire industry is paid the same. :)
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by pcurve on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @05:24PM (#37242047)
Not having a band is surprising at Fortune 100. I'm guessing the talent retention is still done through bonus and LTI.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by irrational on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @10:23PM (#37244345)
Oh, there are band levels (at least, assuming we used band levels in the same way you mean), but everyone in that band level must make the same amount of money. And the band levels are fixed. It's not like talent acquisition can magically make up a new band level to give someone more money.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by pcurve on Thursday August 24, 2023 @09:22AM (#37248452)
If everyone is making the same amount, then there is no band. Band = Range with midpoint. For example, Sr. Software engineer's pay band could be $120,000 - $180,000 with $150,000 roughly being the midpoint, with most people making around the midpoint mark. Now I'm curious what company it is :-)
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by gen220 on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @10:20PM (#37244330)
On the other hand, they probably spend significantly less time bickering about their respective salaries.

IME, talented people can spend an absurd proportion of their time bickering about how ${other_talented_person} makes ${trivial_number}/year more than they do, all because they're ${some_trait}.

Overall, I could imagine this filter being both good and bad. I'm not confident whether it nets out good or bad, but you can't argue it's not a dramatically simpler system, and simple systems are often surprisingly better better. :shrug:

Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by khazhoux on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @03:59PM (#37241330)
But people will still argue over leveling, no?
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by yieldcrv on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @04:42PM (#37241645)
that’s nice but not holistic enough

people are overly assuming ingrained bias from a shadowy cabal of hiring managers and not looking at different gendered funnels, attrition, and personal contribution to the outcomes all within the same roles

HIRED’s recruitment report, for example, found very gendered compensations asks to begin with

similarly, people discount the risk many men take to skew it. for everyone worried about coming across as “too bitchy” there are a bunch of men that came across as “too cocky” and got fired or rejected and kept trying until they were hired at a company who needs someone to “to make the tough decisions” like tough to swallow decisions

the observation discounts how many people are overly focused on moving up in one company, versus not being married to any particular company at all, and how gendered even that is, when the latter has a 30% pay bump compared to eking out 5% discretionary promotions within the same company

also discounted is how many men would also leave the workforce if there was a reliable option of being subsidized for house work and unpaid emotional labor, you’ll get workplace equality and wage normalization overnight with that patch to the culture, instead of focusing solely on trying to patch the workplace and acting confused when the same outcome persists

the incentives for men are work or homelessness, unsheltered, outside. there are no classified ads with discounted or free rent “for men only”, or working for the self accolade of proving you didn't do the easy option. these things are all connected to workplace outcomes

Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by saagarjha on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @08:04PM (#37243514)
Nobody was talking about gender here until you used it as an excuse to reiterate talking points about how pay disparity is actually explained by women not asking for enough money or how men actually have it hard.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by yieldcrv on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @08:13PM (#37243593)
the person I replied to was in an environment about gender

> “they were especially trying to make sure women were making as much as men”

when the incentive models are unequal the behaviors of the market participants will be unequal

you’ll get workplace equality and wage normalization overnight with that patch to the culture, instead of focusing solely on trying to patch the workplace

Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by irrational on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @10:25PM (#37244354)
The company has over 80,000 employees and women are more than 50% of the full time employees and the majority of managers are women (by a long shot). I'm not sure what needs patching to the culture.
Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by yieldcrv on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @11:40PM (#37244756)
Not your workplace culture, the whole culture

To get a similar level of representation more commonly

Re:Common mistakes in salary negotiation by closeparen on Thursday August 24, 2023 @02:06AM (#37245541)
It's obvious to those on the ground that there are vast differences between people doing the same job. You can say "we only want the best" and fire the pretty-good, but the tone that sets is incredibly harsh. You can try to promote your top performers, but L+1 is usually defined as a different nature and scope of work, not the same work done better. This creates perverse incentives like separating people from their mentors so that they can demonstrate leadership, or choosing the most complicated way of getting something done & involving a lot of people so that they can demonstrate scope. Managers play these games because if they don't, they lose their best workers to outside offers.