It’s the same for me, but the ideal is a mix of 2-3 work from home and 2-3 days from the office.

2-3 and 3-2, right? unless you work 6 days a week

The expression "2-3" isn't intended to be a schedule, like MT-WThF. It's shorthand for "two or three".

I was doing this pre-pandemic and it was the happiest I've ever been in a work situation. Most meetings would wait for the in-person time and my WFH days as a result were usually heads down. We were able to lean into the best parts of both work styles, and the people who preferred to work in an office would be there every day.

It depends on the team and work but I definitely feel a lot more disconnected being fully remote these days. Seeing my team (and broader org) every quarter was a nice compromise that combatted this somewhat but I miss the energy of the hybrid model.

How about a face to face meeting once per quarter?

Why not a face-to-face meeting everyday? It’s what some people prefer.

because it's as obvious as the nose on your face it is not what all prefer.

But you can then also see that it’s obvious that people who like seeing people face-to-face every day do not prefer this:

> How about a face to face meeting once per quarter?

Some people, yes, but not everyone.

Nobody’s stopping you from doing whatever you want. You want to pay for an office building and sit it it that’s fine.

The problem comes when you try to stop what others want.

Nobody can make you work in an office if you don't want to. Organizations should obviously be free to demand it and you should be free to work somewhere else if you don't want to.

1. Nobody’s stopping anyone. If you’ll only work for a remote company, nobody’s forcing you to come back into the office. Just get a new remote job and quit.

2.Even if your job is forcing you to do something you don’t like, that’s not a problem. If I want to use Windows and the company only lets people use Macs, then that’s not a problem. It’s a rule that either I’ll comply with or I won’t work there anymore.

If a company decides to be in-person-only then the people who want to work at a remote-only company won’t work there (or they will).

This sounds good in theory. I have a problem with giving bogus reasons for RTO. If corpos would be honest about this and provide the right incentives we wpuld not have a problem

1) Nobody is preventing you from working for a tyrant like Twit…er X and be forced to work in the office everyday (as long as they’ve paid their rent). Forcing 100% in office is nothing less than tyrannical behavior. If you don’t like their WFH policy, go work somewhere else

To sum up your summary, that’s why we’re seeing companies lose employees faster than they anticipated.

> Forcing 100% in office is nothing less than tyrannical behavior. If you don’t like their WFH policy, go work somewhere else

From the perspective of those who prefer in-office work, how is this any different from forcing a WFH policy on everyone? Why is that not tyrannical behavior?

How do we effectively give that minority what they want without forcing it on the majority? If you have 8 guys who don't come in and 4 who do its not really like working in an in office company you will end up relying on remote tools in order to include the other fellows anyway. It logically will be almost like working remotely but with a commute. At that point do you want to drive in to have a zoom meeting?

What happens when you have two office locations, even a few blocks apart in the same city? Or two floors in the same tower?

Logically you end up using remote tools and you might as well connect to those from your desk at home.

Indeed - this happens between people on two floors of a building I often visit, even when their offices are directly above/below one another!

Really, that’s your logical conclusion?

For many people the separation between home and work has real value and for many people (particularly younger people with roommates in smaller apartments) their homes don’t have a dedicated workspace with a desk.

The WeWorK I go to has nicer furniture, Internet, and lighting than my home. It is in no way logical for me to work out of my apartment.

You need a minimum of 4x5 workspace and a full size mattress is about 5.5 x 6 a twin closer to 3x6.

Even an apartment bedroom 10x12 can accommodate both in an L. Gig internet is also a lot cheaper than commuting or we work. If you are a professional there is little excuse not to have a desk and fast Internet at home.

Doing tech support I was always shocked to see some folks including techies angry that their elcheapo Internet plan with 10 year old rented equipment downstairs wasn't working well for their hyper important job.

Invest in yourself a bit.

> If you are a professional there is little excuse not to have a desk and fast Internet at home.

Jesus Christ, here’s my excuse: Before the pandemic I didn’t work at home. After the pandemic, I work at WeWork.

WeWork is $150 a month btw and includes free coffee and A/C in the summer (my apartment doesn’t have A/C) as well. Plus I can walk there in 30 minutes so the dollar-cost of commuting isn’t an issue.

You realize picking a nearby office of your choosing is nothing like coming into the office right. You selected it for proximity to obviate 99% of the downsides of the office and if you don't like the situation you can pick up and change it without changing jobs.

It’s actually further than where my office used to be pre-pandemic. I’d have a similar bike/walk commute to probably 70% of the office jobs in my city.

I hate remote work but I happen to like my current job enough to stick with it despite it being remote. My next job will be in-office.

> How do we effectively give that minority what they want without forcing it on the majority

You don’t have to. Somebody at the company (owner, board, leadership team, etc.) decides if they want to be remote, on-site, or hybrid. Then leave it up to everyone who works there to make a decision about whether that’s something they can live with.

Then go to the office. Mandating return to office is the problematic part.

There needs to be other people at the office for there to be a point in going there.

Many offices are empty wastelands so, no, the only option is to switch jobs.

You want to be in office with people who don't want to be there?

This. I've been going back to the office three days a week and it has been much better for my mental health. I thought it was just being alone but when my husband started working from it didn't really get much better. I am enjoying the 30 minute commute to listen to my podcasts. Two months into this schedule and I just feel better.

Five days in the office would probably grind me down but 3 has been a great hybrid for me.

> Personally, working from home and not seeing my teammates and colleagues in person for long periods of time makes me more depressed and increases anxiety level.

That sounds unhealthy. Do you have family and community relationships? Work should be professional relationships. You provide services in exchange for money. If you are getting anxious and depressed from not seeing the people you work with, I think something is wrong with work life balance.

By the way, it is the company that benefits from this one sided attachment. If you feel emotionally attached to the company you are less likely to leave for higher pay or tolerate more abuse from the company. Believe me, the company will have no regrets parting with you if they feel you are not adding to their business value.

Companies love selling their employees on how they are a part of a family and how they are all on mission together. They are trying to inspire loyalty. In reality, the company has pretty much zero loyalty to you.

I think one of the reasons companies are trying to get rid of WFH, is that it is harder to make people emotionally dependent on the company and inspire one sided loyalty if they are working remotely.

> That sounds unhealthy.

This is kind of risible. No, it does not sound "unhealthy" to express a desire to spend time around colleagues as part of the work day. I can hardly imagine a more natural or healthy desire.

Frankly, that says more about you than OP.

Well I agree with him. I strongly prefer in person work and find working from home depressing.

When someone implies it’s a character flaw or because you don’t have a social life it’s offensive. My life is fine outside of work.

It is fine to want to spend time with your coworkers. However, it is unhealthy if not seeing you co-workers make you depressed and anxious.

I think, in fact, "not being around other people makes lots of healthy, ordinary people feel depressed and anxious" is just about as robust a finding in human psychology as you're likely to find.

Agreed. But if the only people you are around and depend on for your mental health is your coworkers, that is unhealthy. There should be other relationships in your life that are meeting your social needs outside of work. If that is not the case, it is unhealthy.

> Work should be professional relationships

Sounds like a cultural thing.

One of the best periods in my life was working with people who became my friends.

> Believe me, the company will have no regrets parting with you if they feel you are not adding to their business value.

"The company" doesn't exist. Its a somewhat useful abstraction. The people involved can and will keep people on long after they "should" have been fired. At least here is Europe.

Sorry it sounds like you don't have a satisfying life outside of work, and that has nothing to do with WFH vs RTO.

Learning to WFH is as much a skill as learning to operate in an office environment. The difference, when you learn the former you also have increased freedom.

I’m always surprised to see these accusations. “Oh you don’t like not seeing human beings for 40-60 hours a week? You must not have a life or any friends.” WTF. Is it really that unfathomable that other people are different from you?

You don't like remote work so your life must be unfulfilled is such a horseshit take. People have different preferences.

Plenty of people enjoy in-person interactions with their colleagues, and it's quite reasonable for them to prefer an environment where such interactions are possible.

People aren't obligated to shut up and tolerate working conditions they dislike. Changing their lives outside of work won't make them enjoy those working conditions more.

You can make your point more generously than this

I have a very satisfying and social life outside work but working from home still sucks.

> Sorry it sounds like you don't have a satisfying life outside of work,

When you spend 40 hours of your week doing something, it's going to influence you.

No amount of "satisfying life outside of work" can make up for a workplace that you don't enjoy. That's true for toxic workplaces, it's true for people who can't stand in-office work, and it's true for people who can't stand remote.

It's unfair to try to blame it all on the person's personal life. Different people work well in different environments. The WFH maximalists and in-office maximalists need to stop acting high and mighty like their way flawless.

After a year in full remote I noticed counter intuitive effects. I'm still pro WFH (for energy, time, social reasons). But I had moments where anxiety shot up due to being alone with my stuff. So I can understand. And it's weird cause I don't like most of the other employees (nothing bad, just never clicked) but there's a little thing about sharing a space to contribute to a common corporation.

It also depends on the crowd. On old jobs (public services) I felt there was more warmth (a lot more problems but still) whereas as a dev the spirit is a lot more dull and nerdy. I don't miss that.

I've felt the same but working in-person is just not an option for me with my current company. I deal with it in other ways that are outside of the job. Spend more time with my partner, take care of my dog, go for frequent walks and have a side hobby that really interests me.

I feel for you, and anyone who has emotional difficulty with this shift to remote work.

However, consider the fact that the old status quo of working in open concept 'feed lot' style office spaces makes people feel awful too.

I do not mean to discount your experience or feelings. Just pointing out that people are different, and you are just on the other side of the fence post shift.

Remote working isn't for everyone, and seemingly not for you. I don't think that makes it a problem per se. If you are not allowed back into the office you have a dispute with you employer.

> Personally, working from home and not seeing my teammates and colleagues in person for long periods of time makes me more depressed and increases anxiety level.

For some, it is exactly the opposite.