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Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by julianeon on Friday August 04, 2023 @12:09AM (#36995391)
A good one would be "productive AI." People forget, but a short while ago, AI was treated as something where being actually useful was perpetually 20 years away, and the real-world status of it was exemplified by a chatbot like Eliza.
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Retric on Friday August 04, 2023 @12:23AM (#36995456)
Yea, Eliza is a far worse chat bot than ChatGPT…

More seriously AI has made lots of things better, it’s really the hype cycle that’s disappointing. More FPS in games just isn’t as exciting as self driving cars. But by the time you can buy a level 5 self driving car the technology will be pedestrian.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by chx on Friday August 04, 2023 @12:36AM (#36995535)
An L5 self driving car is decades away. The needle hasn't moved on that one.

Nothing we have currently moves closer to that. Just doing more of the same of the current models will not get you there.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by p1esk on Friday August 04, 2023 @01:29AM (#36995824)
Don't we have self-driving cars operating as taxicabs today in SF?
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by fragmede on Friday August 04, 2023 @01:36AM (#36995863)
Cruise is currently operating self-driving "taxi" service between the hours of 9pm and 5:30 am throughout the city to members of the general public who've waited on the wait-list. Waymo is too, in Phoenix, and supposedly SF too, but I don't know anybody personally of the general public in SF that has ridden one.
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by kortilla on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:06AM (#36996025)
So yes, we have L5 driving. The cars don’t have drivers, regardless of some time restrictions.
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:51AM (#36996329)
Level 5 means it can do anything a human can.

They're level 4 with very severe location and weather limits.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by chx on Friday August 04, 2023 @08:04AM (#36998789)
Yes.

Creating a self driving car which can navigate a dark, rainy parking lot is something we do not know how. Not even in theory. You can't just throw more compute at it. You can't go from a Vickers Type 464 bomb -- one of the most complex bombs in WW II -- to the "Little Boy" by just putting more explosives in there.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Retric on Friday August 04, 2023 @08:41AM (#36999165)
You have the definition slightly wrong.

Level 5 driving just means it can drive a child or blind person around who can’t take over in an emergency. That’s the difference between Little Boy and a Moab.

However current level 5 cars aren’t something a consumer would buy. A car that refuses to drive in 99% of situations isn’t marketable. The minimum threshold for that might be a car that can only drive in Hawaii, not a large enough market to pay for R&D, but still plenty use for a blind person living in the area.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 04, 2023 @08:51AM (#36999270)
> Level 5 driving just means it can drive a child or blind person around who can’t take over in an emergency.

No, that's what level 4 means. Level 3 can rely on having a driver to switch to, level 4 can't.

The difference between 4 and 5 is that 4 can park and give up under arbitrary circumstances, while 5 has to be able to keep going almost always.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Retric on Friday August 04, 2023 @10:03AM (#37000217)
Level 4 is steering wheel mandatory. Level 5 is steering wheel optional.

Geofencing is part of the criteria, but a car that can only drive in the USA but can’t drive in Europe still qualifies as level 5.

Similarly a car that refuses to drive in a blizzard but can do everything else is level 5. Being able to drive at night or moderate rain is mandatory however.

That said, there is plenty of slightly different definitions thrown about. I am sure someone is going to argue a car needs to be able to drive in any country to qualify etc etc.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 04, 2023 @12:54PM (#37002579)
Steering wheel doesn't matter, despite the cute mnemonic.

Level 4 cars need a steering wheel to be generally useful. But a limited vehicle like a taxi doesn't need a wheel, no matter whether it's 4 or 5.

I agree with the rest of what you said. Geofencing entire continents isn't about driving ability, and blizzards are an acceptable human-level restriction.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Retric on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:52PM (#37004201)
Your right. I have read that human override is still mandatory at level 4.

However it looks like this just changed: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2022-03/Final-Ru...

“For vehicles designed to be solely operated by an ADS, manually operated driving controls are logically unnecessary.29 To account for this, the NPRM proposed a regulatory scheme in which the affected standards would not assume that a vehicle will always have a driver’s seat, a steering wheel and accompanying steering column, or just one front outboard passenger seating position.”

They are apparently allowing level 4 Taxi to be considered full ADS even if they have additional “Stowed controls” options.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:11PM (#37004456)
Glad they agree but I'd say the street legality of a vehicle is a separate issue from the self-driving level.
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Retric on Friday August 04, 2023 @06:14PM (#37006590)
These levels come from the US’s National Highway Traffic Safety Administration formal definition in 2013. It’s been updated a few times since then with SAE introducing an extra level in 2014, but the point was really a formal definition for regulation.

https://unece.org/DAM/trans/doc/2013/wp29grsp/WP.29-161-18e....

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 04, 2023 @08:36AM (#36999111)
I don't know if I agree with that particular example. You only need to go 3-5mph in a dark, rainy parking lot.
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by krisoft on Friday August 04, 2023 @08:43AM (#36999180)
> Creating a self driving car which can navigate a dark, rainy parking lot is something we do not know how. Not even in theory.

I do not recognise the reality you are in.

Navigating dark and rainy parking lots is not hard. At all. Not hard in theory, and not hard in practice either.

We have lidars which work very well in rain. We have cameras with excellent dynamic range. Parking lots are slow environments where everyone moves slowly and you are generally allowed to stop if you are suddenly spooked or need a bit more time to check things.

There are hard problems about self driving cars, but dark and rainy parking lots are not the stumbling block.

Where do you even get this idea?

Let me tell you two harder things about self driving cars: "How many nines do you want in your certainty that the car won't hit anyone?" and "How do you want that proven? With stats or with fault tree analysis, or a mix of both?"

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by kortilla on Saturday August 05, 2023 @12:34AM (#37009053)
Humans can’t do everything humans can. What a dumb nebulous definition.
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by xyproto on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:50AM (#36996324)
If a city banned all manually driven cars and allowed only self driving cars, the number of car-related deaths would drop to almost nothing. Goods could also be transported more efficiently. The technology to achive this exists right now, L5 or not. The only thing stopping citites from doing this is the cost that inhabitants will have in connection with selling or switching our their car. And all the complaining. But lives would be saved, and the city would be safer and more efficient.
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by pjerem on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:10AM (#36996485)
Cities will not need to do that. In Europe they are gradually banning cars as a whole from city centers an you are right, it saves lives. And it also makes those cities more livable.

When I say gradually, it's an euphemism, it's an _extremely_ slow process, but it's the global tendency here.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by choeger on Friday August 04, 2023 @04:30AM (#36997113)
They aren't banning cars. They're requiring special permits. That's a difference. In effect, they're banning cars for the masses and keep them for a small group (the wealthy, all sorts of delivery drivers, officials).
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by ArnoVW on Friday August 04, 2023 @05:06AM (#36997369)
you're both right.

generally what's happening is a combination of:

    * making pedestrian zones (i.e. banning)
    * deny access to certain types / times  (no vans, no old cars, etc.. i.e. also banning)
    * reducing roads (i.e. 2 > 1 lane, thus reducing attractivity)
    * raising driving prices (the congestion / air quality certificates you mention)
    * reducing access to parking (remove places, make them more expensive, etc)
.. all the while increasing alternatives (i.e. use those reduced lanes for bikes)
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by xkcd1963 on Friday August 04, 2023 @10:14AM (#37000375)
I keep hearing life in Germany gets worse and worse
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:53AM (#36996345)
I'm not sure how relevant that argument is.

You could have said the same thing 40 years ago.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by xyproto on Friday August 04, 2023 @07:56AM (#36998692)
No. Self driving cars are better now.

Cities are also more open to changing which rules cars should follow, because the effects of climate change are more visible, and the effects of pulluted air are better known.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by lfnoise on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:23AM (#36996122)
When COVID hit, my American Airlines flight got canceled and when I went online to ask about getting credit, I got connected to a bot. When I asked to be connected to a real person instead of a bot, the person came online and said: "My name is Eliza. How can I help you today?" At this point, I was very skeptical, but she was indeed a person.
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by pjerem on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:03AM (#36996435)
"Sorry Eliza, can I speak to your manager ?" "Sure" "Oh, hello, I'm Hal. Eliza told me you want to get credit ? ! I'm afraid I can't do that."
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by sparrowInHand on Friday August 04, 2023 @04:01AM (#36996887)
Open the purse, HAL
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by ben0x539 on Friday August 04, 2023 @12:18AM (#36995432)
When AI was 20 years away, people seemed more optimistic about it than now when its inevitable transformative societal impact is seemingly right around the corner, are you sure this is the kind of example they were going for?
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by glompers on Friday August 04, 2023 @01:56AM (#36995965)
Larry Page and Sergey Brin will be so upset when AIs unionize...
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by someplaceguy on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:03AM (#36996007)
I think your point only demonstrates that useful AI was not something we could arrive at quickly like we thought we could, but rather over decades in a much more gradual process which slowly got people accustomed to its capabilities.

Even then, when ChatGPT came out it was a pretty big deal, due to the surprisingly sudden jump in capabilities, at least from the point of view of someone who didn't work in AI and didn't closely watch its progress.

According to Wikipedia, it was "the fastest-growing consumer software application in history, gaining over 100 million users" (in ~2 months).

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by bhaak on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:16AM (#36996528)
This is mostly due to "they're taking our jobs!".

Which actually highlights a problem in our society that we have to work to be able to afford living instead of living to be able to work on something more meaningful than earning money.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by ben0x539 on Friday August 04, 2023 @06:46AM (#36998067)
I wish people on this website were as enthusiastic about addressing this problem as they are about tech things.
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by AtlasBarfed on Friday August 04, 2023 @12:09PM (#37001935)
Because AI is a tool of corporations. Corporations that already show a massive indifference/hostility to "customer service". Corporations that reduce you to data points, that treat regulation with open disdain (see: Uber), corporations that built perpetual private surveillance empires (and therefore the actual state has a turnkey infrastructure for total information awareness).

THESE are the companies wielding AI, but this time without nary a "do no evil" in their ethos, long expunged. They are wielding AI with dystopian surveillance and the inputs.

In the era where the Supreme Court has declared them immortal citizens with allegedly the same rights as a real human, except they can't be killed, they can't be imprisoned, they can hop jurisdictions with the filing of a document. They operate under citizens United so there are no limits to their influence on elections and politicians. They can "bribe" with speaking/speech fees. They gain tax breaks that a "real" human can't possibly imagine.

Do you trust Google, especially these days? Do you trust Microsoft, unrepentant sociopathic MBA monopolizers galore? Do you trust Amazon who reduce humans to robots, with the outright stated goal of replacing them someday and churn through human resources at rates that make the Soviet Army in WWII blush?

If a firearm is just a tool and its danger depends on the owner, who is brandishing AI-the-tool?

Uhoh.