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Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:51AM (#36996329)
Level 5 means it can do anything a human can.

They're level 4 with very severe location and weather limits.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by chx on Friday August 04, 2023 @08:04AM (#36998789)
Yes.

Creating a self driving car which can navigate a dark, rainy parking lot is something we do not know how. Not even in theory. You can't just throw more compute at it. You can't go from a Vickers Type 464 bomb -- one of the most complex bombs in WW II -- to the "Little Boy" by just putting more explosives in there.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Retric on Friday August 04, 2023 @08:41AM (#36999165)
You have the definition slightly wrong.

Level 5 driving just means it can drive a child or blind person around who can’t take over in an emergency. That’s the difference between Little Boy and a Moab.

However current level 5 cars aren’t something a consumer would buy. A car that refuses to drive in 99% of situations isn’t marketable. The minimum threshold for that might be a car that can only drive in Hawaii, not a large enough market to pay for R&D, but still plenty use for a blind person living in the area.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 04, 2023 @08:51AM (#36999270)
> Level 5 driving just means it can drive a child or blind person around who can’t take over in an emergency.

No, that's what level 4 means. Level 3 can rely on having a driver to switch to, level 4 can't.

The difference between 4 and 5 is that 4 can park and give up under arbitrary circumstances, while 5 has to be able to keep going almost always.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Retric on Friday August 04, 2023 @10:03AM (#37000217)
Level 4 is steering wheel mandatory. Level 5 is steering wheel optional.

Geofencing is part of the criteria, but a car that can only drive in the USA but can’t drive in Europe still qualifies as level 5.

Similarly a car that refuses to drive in a blizzard but can do everything else is level 5. Being able to drive at night or moderate rain is mandatory however.

That said, there is plenty of slightly different definitions thrown about. I am sure someone is going to argue a car needs to be able to drive in any country to qualify etc etc.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 04, 2023 @12:54PM (#37002579)
Steering wheel doesn't matter, despite the cute mnemonic.

Level 4 cars need a steering wheel to be generally useful. But a limited vehicle like a taxi doesn't need a wheel, no matter whether it's 4 or 5.

I agree with the rest of what you said. Geofencing entire continents isn't about driving ability, and blizzards are an acceptable human-level restriction.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Retric on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:52PM (#37004201)
Your right. I have read that human override is still mandatory at level 4.

However it looks like this just changed: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2022-03/Final-Ru...

“For vehicles designed to be solely operated by an ADS, manually operated driving controls are logically unnecessary.29 To account for this, the NPRM proposed a regulatory scheme in which the affected standards would not assume that a vehicle will always have a driver’s seat, a steering wheel and accompanying steering column, or just one front outboard passenger seating position.”

They are apparently allowing level 4 Taxi to be considered full ADS even if they have additional “Stowed controls” options.

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:11PM (#37004456)
Glad they agree but I'd say the street legality of a vehicle is a separate issue from the self-driving level.
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Retric on Friday August 04, 2023 @06:14PM (#37006590)
These levels come from the US’s National Highway Traffic Safety Administration formal definition in 2013. It’s been updated a few times since then with SAE introducing an extra level in 2014, but the point was really a formal definition for regulation.

https://unece.org/DAM/trans/doc/2013/wp29grsp/WP.29-161-18e....

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 04, 2023 @08:36AM (#36999111)
I don't know if I agree with that particular example. You only need to go 3-5mph in a dark, rainy parking lot.
Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by krisoft on Friday August 04, 2023 @08:43AM (#36999180)
> Creating a self driving car which can navigate a dark, rainy parking lot is something we do not know how. Not even in theory.

I do not recognise the reality you are in.

Navigating dark and rainy parking lots is not hard. At all. Not hard in theory, and not hard in practice either.

We have lidars which work very well in rain. We have cameras with excellent dynamic range. Parking lots are slow environments where everyone moves slowly and you are generally allowed to stop if you are suddenly spooked or need a bit more time to check things.

There are hard problems about self driving cars, but dark and rainy parking lots are not the stumbling block.

Where do you even get this idea?

Let me tell you two harder things about self driving cars: "How many nines do you want in your certainty that the car won't hit anyone?" and "How do you want that proven? With stats or with fault tree analysis, or a mix of both?"

Re:Successful room temperature ambient-pressure magnetic lev... by kortilla on Saturday August 05, 2023 @12:34AM (#37009053)
Humans can’t do everything humans can. What a dumb nebulous definition.