Sorry to add to the flames, but many (most?) introverts generally do find joy in deep, meaningful long conversations. It's the small talk they tend to dislike.
The problem is trying to shoehorn everything into introvert vs extrovert. The reality is it's a vector. Small talk vs meaningful conversations is an axis different from enjoying crowds vs alone time.
Both, however, do drain me.
I'm pretty sure this is bullshit.
Level of drain = lack of trust in that person X overall level of anxiety
If you're highly anxious and socializing with people you dont trust (strangers, acquaintances) then the experience will be stressful draining.
Ive met many self declared introverts who have no problem socializing for long periods in small groups with people they trust absolutely.
Ditto self declared extroverts who are "socially performing" in a critical sitation where they will be judged can't help but find the experience draining.
> Ive met many self declared introverts who have no problem socializing for long periods in small groups with people they trust absolutely.
How do you know they had no problem socializing for long periods? Did you ask them, or did they just not complain about it to you? Part of the issue for many introverts is the social expectation is often set by a more extroverted culture, and they just try to fit in. That doesn't mean they prefer chatting with you for four hours rather than, say, two hours.
Yes of course. I think pretty much every self declared introvert Ive asked about this had 1-5 people for whom spending time with them didnt "drain" them - e.g. best friend, parent, spouse, etc.
When they described what type of situations drained them that they enjoyed it would generally be something like going to a party where they didnt know anyone.
As far as I can tell this is really just true for a sort of Reddit centric extremely online crowd, in the category of “everyone knows” stuff that just originates from random message board postings that catch on.
> I'm pretty sure this is bullshit.
As an introvert, it's spot on. I have no problems socializing with people, whether I trust them or not. I spend long periods (e.g., days camping) with groups that I trust. I enjoy all of it in the moment. I don't have anxiety. It's all still draining, and I need to spend days alone to recharge after days of socializing, enjoyable or otherwise.
It's just two different ways of describing the same phenomenon. I like the authors because it's much more multi-faceted and easier to find practical applications, at least in my mind. "I enjoy a good amount of solitude, and I've just spent several days socializing, so I'm going to prioritize alone time for the next few days" rather than "I need to recharge so I can be social again." It's similar, but I like the first one better.
As an anecdotal personal example. I love my wife and kids dearly. I trust them, and feel no anxiety being around them. Yet it’s draining. Now they’re gone for a few days, and I feel very good being finally alone for a few days.
Likewise I enjoy getting together with friends and family. I’ve also learned to be sociable. But it’s draining. After a day of having to interact with people I really, really, really cherish being alone for a few hours with my own thoughts, and preferably silence.
We’re different like that, people in general, I mean.
I mean, I do see how someone might believe that just because one finds an activity draining they’d strive to avoid it at all costs. But that really doesn’t have to be the case.
That process of getting comfortable is the relevant context though - not a virtual dial in their brain that goes from "introvert" to "extrovert".
They don't though. You just sound like an extrovert that can't fathom that introverts exist.
Even if my family visit me and I am comfortable with them, I will still be extremely tired when they leave. I won't feel "energised"
likewise i have given presentations on various topics in front of dozens or hundreds of people. my comfort level depended on how well prepared i was, and how the audience reacted. during the speech part anxiety is higher because i get little to no feedback, but then the Q&A can turn things around if people have lots of questions that show their interest in the topic.
oh, and when i am drained, i can't go to sleep. i have to do something interesting for myself for at least an hour or more in order to divert my thoughts away from the draining experience.
Don't know what that makes me but I don't worry about the labels
> I'm pretty sure this is bullshit.
Both me and my SO are more introvert than not.
We've come to the conclusion that one of the core reasons it's so draining for us is that we puts a lot of thought into interactions and conversations, even superficial small talk ones.
At least in our experience, those who appear more extrovert seem to do less of that. They don't seem to reflect over all our actions, or everything we say. Some of it, or at certain times, sure. But seemingly not to the same degree.
If that is the case, then it is more draining, because we exert more mental effort.
> Level of drain = lack of trust in that person X overall level of anxiety
Speaking for myself at least, anxiety has nothing to do with it, nor lack of trust. I don't feel any anxiety striking a random conversation with someone in a bar or with a family member at home. And when I have a random conversation with someone in a bar, it doesn't matter if I trust them or not, because the topics are almost never intimate. With my family members I know I can trust them, so that's moot as well.
But both conversations can be quite draining, and at least for me, I suspect it has more to do with what I described above.
I understand that the idea of draining vs. charging works for some people, but I always found this concept even more baffling. For me, when I've been in solitude for a while, I feel a restless desire to go out and interact with people. When I'm in that lonely state, I find social interaction "charging" and further solitude "draining."
But when I go interact with people for a long time—especially in a large group where I don't know people well—I feel an urge to retreat to solitude.
So am I charged by solitude and drained by interaction, or the other way around? It feels like the answer is "both"... so what am I supposed to do with all this?
One way you could think about my model is that you have four "batteries", each of which has an optimal "charge level." If you're under that level, you'll feel a desire to be in that state for a while. If you're over it, you'll feel an aversion to being in that state. And it's possible that if you're quite introverted, your optimal level of large-group interaction is close to zero.
If you're somewhere in the middle like me, though, the simple idea that you're "drained" by one thing or the other feels off.
I can be home alone all week and still dread going out to a party if I’m not in the mood. I’m a very social person, but it is still draining. I have never felt so alone that I need social interaction, but I have frequently felt a strong need to be alone.
But I’m also like the parent in that I’ve lead large teams, had greater interpersonal relationships, and have been hoisted to leadership positions regardless of if I was trying to get there or not.
Finally, I imagine the reality of extrovert vs introvert is similar to the modern understanding of gender as a spectrum. I would guess there are not many people that are wholly introverted or extroverted.
There are negative social interactions, and they frequently leave me drained, or seeking solitude.
There are busy interactions where lots of people require my time and attention even though I have other things to do - they can also leave me drained.
There are also positive interactions, with friends or maybe places where people are gathered with a common interest that leave me buoyant and full of energy and enthusiasm.
Even online interactions might count as interactions, and fill my day with various effects on my energy.
Pet interactions are generally pretty positive. I often wonder if some people use pets as proxies for human interaction (may be healthy or unhealthy)
I imagine that, just like how it is impossible for me to empathize with someone that gets re-energized from social interaction, it is nearly impossible for an extrovert to understand how introverts feel.
How is a person with existing relationships vs. new people? Similar people vs. different people?
My theory is that a lot of people labelled "introvert" are just more selective then average in who they want to deal with.
- how much one ‘masks’ one’s feelings
- how much attention/energy one spends deeply engaging with the other thoughtfully
Eg two very different examples of draining conversations:
1. you’re at a party hosted by someone you care about and being a fun guest, but more for the host’s sake because you care about them and want to show up for them and help assuage their worries their party might not be a success. you can keep your energy expenditure lowish but likely find yourself on social autopilot. passive engagement + commitment to fixing oneself to the event = energy cost
2. you run into a total stranger whose interests align exactly like yours and who is just as excited to talk to you as you are to them. But at the end if such conversations you have explored so much and learned so much from them, it takes a bit of a breather to disengage. Fun and active engagement but really high energy expenditure
I posit that any activity which falls short of flow state will also cause energy drainage in kind. What distinguishes introverts and extraverts in a given social interaction, then, has to do with the degree to which they consider themselves challenged and how skillfully they think they are performing. High challenge + high ability = flow, which is an energizing state where you lose track of time. Mess with those parameters a bit and you get boredom and anxiety (along with shades of other things), which are draining states different in kind.
To use a crude analogy, you can be both thirsty and busting to go to the toilet the same time.
For a battery, getting "drained" is an expected change, perhaps "discharge" would be a more neutral way to put it, but IMO it just comes down to personal imagery.
The primary difference between myself and my extreme extrovert wife is that at the end of the day I am emotionally drained and need some quiet time to recharge, while she’s still itching to talk.
You aren't "an" introvert or an extrovert, rather you have cognitive functions that are themselves introverted or extroverted and they are ordered in your personality between strongest and weakest.
Everyone has both introverted and extroverted functions, and the opposite is always the second strongest. This is why people make up the word "ambivert." People are also confused depending on whether that function is perceptual (intuition / sensory) or judgmental (thinking / feeling), with the perceptual ones, from the meme level understanding appearing introverted.
Do you consider yourself an introvert or extrovert? I am deeply introverted, but deep conversations are what I yearn for, but I find most people are not willing to engage in such, especially extroverts.
It was my understanding that most introverts actually feel deeply, which is precisely why social interactions that are not intellectually stimulating are draining. Though even the intellectually stimulating ones are still tiring, just not draining.
Probably what's being re-hit upon is that there's more to personality types than introvert and extrovert.
I fully agree with the second thing you said.
But I think the more broad and modern personality models beyond introvert/extrovert are better for this rather than the broad strokes I painted with.
The nuance on the flip side that I see discussed even less is that extroverts are not necessarily actually good at interacting with people, especially in more structured settings, they just maybe enjoy doing it more. Presumably there is at least some correlation between extroversion and good social skills, since if nothing else the extrovert might get more practice. But my anecdotal experience is that they're definitely clearly distinct personality aspects that fairly often do not go together.
Enjoy socialising but after a party you're glad to put your feet up and read a book? Get slight anxiety making small talk with strangers, to the point where you feel bad if you do it for more than six hours? Don't want to hang out with your boss at the mandatory company event on the weekend when you could be with your husband and kids? Congratulations, you're A) perfectly normal and B) an introvert, sort of, if you squint!
The problem is not that I don't get what it's like to feel drained, it's that I'm pretty sure everyone I hang out with except for literally one single person feels drained by social interaction at some point.
It may mean having to go to bed very early because you're all used up. The effects varies alot though.
It's not a preference.
I am sure that the vast majority of people have had at least one day where social duties overwhelmed them. Extroverts, meaning people who are never ever drained by social interaction (for whichever meaning drained is given) seem to be vanishingly rare.
I feel this way: having led teams of hundreds of people, I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy.
I encourage reading this recent opinion post in Washington Post that delves into this nuance with a unique perspective: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/12/rebecca-m...