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Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Arnt on Friday July 14, 2023 @02:32AM (#36720189)
What did Van Moof make, exactly? Do you think they were normal bikes?

They made expensive e-bikes with theft recovery features. They have features that make it possible to trace and locate them, and Van Moof would actually do this. For people who spend €3-4k on an easily stolen object that the police won't care about, that's a unique selling point.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by wiseowise on Friday July 14, 2023 @02:48AM (#36720291)
Waiting 6 weeks for any kind of repair was also their unique selling point?
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by greenpresident on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:23AM (#36720534)
That’s a common waiting time at my local bike shops to be honest. The difference is that you can do most stuff on a normal bike yourself with off the shelf parts (supply chain woes permitting).
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Bootvis on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:44AM (#36720639)
What is local for you? In Amsterdam a 6 minute waiting time is more common if you have a regular bike.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by greenpresident on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:57AM (#36720720)
There are three within 5 minutes on my bike. But waitlists for appointments are crazy in the summer. My friends don’t cancel but pass them on amongst each other if they don’t need theirs.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Arnt on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:47AM (#36721705)
Not OP, but I live in Munich and have heard of both six-week and one-day waiting times this summer. It depends on part availability. One day is common, six weeks not unheard of. A friend waited almost that long when two strange and unusual screws had to be replaced, the wrong ones arrived from the manufacturer, etc. The quick routine procedures failed her, the result was slow.

Just from what I hear, it seems that there are more cases of unavailble parts this summer than a few years ago. Maybe the supply chains haven't quite settled after covid, even now.

The person who mentioned six weeks didn't specify whether Van Moof has a six-week average or whether it's a 99th percentile.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Bootvis on Friday July 14, 2023 @06:56AM (#36722145)
It was claimed six weeks was common, common is more like 'average' than it is to '99th percentile'. Your example of the missing screws is unfortunate but it also sounds like something that is not 'common'.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Arnt on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:54AM (#36722545)
Right. Old and unusual screws, a misunderstanding on the phone, someone on vacation... it was an uncommon congregation of bad luck.

Words like "common" have stretchable meanings, though, and particularly on Twitter.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by vr46 on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:08AM (#36722232)
In Hamburg and London, bike shops absolutely have six week backlogs.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by nerdbert on Friday July 14, 2023 @11:53AM (#36725759)
That sounds rough. Normally the guy at my corner does them for me within a few hours if it's something quick. If he's busy or on holiday I'll go to one of the other five or six bike shops within a few minutes' walk of the house.

Before moving to the Netherlands I did a lot of repairs myself but I've totally stopped now that it's so quick to have them done for me.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Arnt on Friday July 14, 2023 @02:53AM (#36720320)
Hardly unique, I've heard that from Tesla owners too. From a VC's point of view that doesn't per se speak against the prospect of a successful venture.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Cthulhu_ on Friday July 14, 2023 @02:59AM (#36720368)
Note that when they first came out, they were actually pretty affordable; since then, competition and mass production spun up and you can get an e-bike for <€1K now, and they'll be less custom made, more generally available parts too. The brand's USP then became that they look and are pretty unique, which is cool on one hand, but they weren't able to make it financially viable. Probably because they relied on VC money, and spent it on people who knew they had VC money to burn.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by RamblingCTO on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:44AM (#36721125)
Any recommendations for an ebike < 1k? You also seem to be EU based :)
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by reacharavindh on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:30AM (#36722362)
I have this - Tenways C600 for EUR 1400. My work subsidised it by EUR 500, so it was a EUR 900 e-bike for me. It is almost perfect for my commuting needs. https://www.tenways.com/products/cgo600
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by RamblingCTO on Sunday July 16, 2023 @03:47AM (#36744567)
That looks awesome! Thank you
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by oblio on Friday July 14, 2023 @06:32AM (#36721986)
My problem, especially with electric bikes is:

What are the decent, mass market brands???

I'm in Europe, I don't want to buy a Mercedes S Class. Who sells the Volkswagen Golf of electric bikes? I just want decent build quality, decent comfort, decent features, good repairability and easy maintenance.

The electric bike market seems immature to me. I want 20-30 big bike brands that I can compare, just like the car brands here, for example:

https://www.arenaev.com/

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by oezi on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:33AM (#36722385)
I mean there are the big brands incl. KTM, Decathlon (elops), Fischer, Bergamont, Cube, Haibike, Stevens...

But the comparability requires you first to pick a type of bike.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by oblio on Friday July 14, 2023 @08:09AM (#36722707)
Well, I guess I want a robust EV, from what I see with a Bosch electric motor, probably a belt drive. Commuter bike, low frame, disk brakes. Transmission, dunno, Bosch or from what I see, maybe Pinion? I think Shimano doesn't make belt drives.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by yourusername on Friday July 14, 2023 @08:43AM (#36723092)
Those requirements will make the bike expensive. Belt drive you don't really see on bikes below €1000. A pinion gearbox is €1000 by itself. So what you're saying is you want a S class for the price of a VW golf.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Aaargh20318 on Friday July 14, 2023 @09:05AM (#36723391)
I have an e-bike like that, belt driven commuter bike, removable battery in the frame (you want this, as it lowers the center of gravity compared to a battery under the cargo rack), disc brakes, 7 speed transmission, from a A-brand, etc. Basically this bike: https://www.batavus.nl/elektrische-fietsen/finez-e-go-power-... (although this is the 2023 model and mine is a few years old now)

The listed price (€3699) is about the same as what I paid for it back then. I made one upgrade to it, by replacing the standard display with a Nyon (which includes satnav among other things) which added €400 to the price.

Awesome bike, absolutely the best bike I’ve ever owned. Rock solid, nothing rattles even on rough terrain or going over speed bumps. I highly recommend the satnav if you plan on touring around. You can pre-plan routes on your PC and upload them to the display (it has wifi). And with the belt drive it’s completely silent, which is nice if you like to tour through nature like me.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by dtech on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:54AM (#36722544)
In the Netherlands all the big bike brands are doing a lot of E-bikes, and there's a gazillion small competitors who do cheap bikes with mostly off-the-shelf components. The bigger brands include Gazelle, Giant, Batavus and Sparta.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by kanar1e on Friday July 14, 2023 @08:08AM (#36722692)
In the Netherlands at least most of the established brands (Gazelle, Sparta, Batavus) have been selling e-bikes for 15-20 years now with sales really taking off in the last 5-10. Most are comfortable city bikes that use standard bike parts. Battery performance has improved a lot over the years and most models allow you to remove (and replace) the battery. Depending on where you live they may be sold under different brand names. I saw that Sparta is for instance sold as Hercules in Germany.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by oblio on Friday July 14, 2023 @08:13AM (#36722751)
Those are all 2k+ from what I see, so closer to Mercedes S Class than to Golf.

Golf would be a 1k bike as the original comment mentioned :-(

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Aaargh20318 on Friday July 14, 2023 @08:57AM (#36723300)
€2+k would be a Golf-class e-bike. A decent non-electric bike is around €1k, add to that the battery, motor, display, charger, etc. and you get to €2k quickly. High-end e-bikes easily go for €4-6k.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by stingrae on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:47PM (#36730383)
Mercedes S class would be a Riese & Muller, you need to adjust your pricing expectations for e-bikes.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by aembleton on Friday July 14, 2023 @09:36AM (#36723827)
> What are the decent, mass market brands???

Decathlon own brands like B'Twin

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by mattio on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:29AM (#36720563)
I am not sure why everyone thinks they are expensive. Just the bike is about 2000 euro.

There are eBikes costing 4000 euro.

My van moof was about 2800 because I bought the 2 packages taking care of theft and repairs. Because of their image I never have to lock the bike besides their amazing kick lock bike, so getting on and off the bike with locking and unlocking it is a matter of seconds.

This is not expensive at all.

*their image amongst bicycle thief’s makes the bike unattractive. They hunt down stolen bikes if you bought their theft service. If they can’t find it you get a new one.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by mjhagen on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:37AM (#36720607)
> This is not expensive at all.

> If they can’t find it you get a new one.

Can't figure out why they weren't profitable.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Arnt on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:41AM (#36720624)
Seriously: They bought a lot of expensive machinery to build things, rented and furnished a lot of shops, and hired a lot of people to staff those, and sales didn't grow to to use their production capacity, sales area and staff time.

Their prices for that trace-or-replace service were quite a bit higher than what my insurance agency charges me for my theft insurance. That operation may have lost money, but that's not obvious.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by m000 on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:01AM (#36720742)
I think that insisting on operating boutique shops around the world was a very costly option. They could have made it much cheaper for them (and convenient for customers) by affiliating with existing bicycle shops when they went worldwide.

I share your worries about the trace-or-replace service. Specifically about the "trace" part of trace-or-replace. Ok, the program is excellent promotion, and did put them on the map. But, tracing stops making economic sense very quickly: Bills rack-up very rapidly when you send a couple of your people in a multi-day hunt in an unknown location.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by vr46 on Friday July 14, 2023 @11:08AM (#36725076)
No kidding on the boutique shops, an expensive street in Covent Garden is super cool to pickup a bike from but running a specialised servicing department from there was clearly commercial suicide. For profligacy this was topped only by a datacentre I was asked to help decommission that was in an Art Deco building on Strand. Next to The Savoy. Overlooking Cleopatra’s Needle and the Thames.

That said, it is a shame that you can’t have specialised bicycle service shops in the centre of London. VanMoof offered a pretty good bespoke experience and my X2 has had a few issues but it’s going quite well four years in. What goes up quickly comes down quickly, I suppose.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by usrusr on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:44AM (#36722451)
In their defense: if the trace efforts succeed in disencouraging thieves (big if), I'd consider it far more valuable than insurance. I'd rather have the bike not stolen than stolen and replaced.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Arnt on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:38AM (#36720612)
To clarify: I personally don't see them as expensive. My neighbour who bought an e-bike this year called them expensive, because they were well above the cheapest things on offer.

They have some fine features that IMO justify their prices, but I'm guessing that I'm an outlier wrt judging bike values and my neighbour more mainstream, so I called them expensive.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by estomagordo on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:53AM (#36720698)
> This is not expensive at all.

I mean, you can get a regular bike for €300, €700 if you want to splurge. But of course, the downside of that would be that you'd get more exercise.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by moooo99 on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:25AM (#36720944)
I mean, you can also easily spend >2k on a bike. In terms of e-bikes the prices for Vanmoof and their competitor Cowboy aren’t particularly cheap, but they aren’t incredibly out of line either.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by haspok on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:46AM (#36721149)
Yeah, but for the price bump you get features which affect the ride of the bike directly (lower weight, better braking, easier shifting etc.). Of course there are diminishing returns, but a 2k bike is significantly better than a 1k bike in almost all aspects, and a 4k bike is also noticeably better than the 2k one. (Whether the price is worth it for you is another question). For me, theft-protecting a 4k bike which otherwise would be a 2.5k bike is nonsensical, because I don't need theft protection - basically you would be trying to sell me a 2.5k bike for 4k. No, thank you.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by scotty79 on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:12AM (#36721375)
I'm using a bike that I bought new for less than 100 euro from a big box shop. I've been using it for more than a decade with zero maintenance (apart from fixing occasional flat). It still works. It's just little stiff which is a feature because I can prop the handlebars against the wall and it stays like that because the weight of the bicycle is not enough to turn the handlebars. It's also heavy because it has suspension. I could buy lighter bicycle that runs smoother but riding a bicycle is an exercise for me. Why would I pay to make it easier?
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by haspok on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:18AM (#36721433)
I mean, why buy a bike at all? You could just run instead of riding, it is even more exercise for you, and doesn't cost a penny.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by scotty79 on Saturday July 15, 2023 @01:47AM (#36733956)
Maybe you can. I can't run. Even a minute or two. Never could. My lungs fill with a up with fluid and joints get easily injured when I run. I can walk though. And I'm walking a lot too. Biking engages different muscles, I move differently and it puts less stress on the joints.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by oblio on Friday July 14, 2023 @06:26AM (#36721948)
This is a commuter bike. That's hardly related to "exercise", it's about getting from A to B efficiently, cheaply and comfortably.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by estomagordo on Friday July 14, 2023 @08:39AM (#36723043)
Pretty ridiculous claim to say that biking to and from work every day isn't providing you with exercise.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by timothyduong on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:42PM (#36729639)
It’s a scale, the majority of colleagues that have an e-bike state they don’t want to rock up to work in sweat.

If exercise was the primary focus alongside a commuter, then getting a non-electric bike would be likely the focus.

Source: I just bought a bicycle and went through months of asking colleagues and friends their opinions on e-bikes. I ended up with a bike cause I’m not planning to commute

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by michaelt on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:43AM (#36721662)
> I mean, you can also easily spend >2k on a bike.

And what you would have is an expensive bike. $2k is an expensive bike.

The fact the market offers a $3,000,000 car doesn't mean a $100,000 car isn't an expensive car.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by ctvo on Friday July 14, 2023 @09:08AM (#36723433)
The fact the market offers a $5,000 car doesn't mean a $25,000 car is an expensive car.

We can stop going in circles. You think it's expensive, but it's not an order of magnitude more expensive, like your example cites. Others don't think it's that expensive, and I agree with them. Researching e-bikes 1-2k seems like market price, and they were within that range.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by foepys on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:07AM (#36720789)
Have the prices come down lately? When COVID hit, it was nearly impossible to find cheap new bikes.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by estomagordo on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:19AM (#36720890)
I bought a new bike for €300 something in 2021, in NL. But it does seem like some stores hardly carry anything that costs below €1000.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by mvanbaak on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:46AM (#36721145)
e-bike with alarm and all other features like apple find my? This is about the VanMoof price, so you have to compare with bikes that bring in the same set of features.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by estomagordo on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:14AM (#36721389)
If the features are nearly useless, like for instance an electric motor, then we can simply assign a very low weight to them when comparing.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by oblio on Friday July 14, 2023 @06:28AM (#36721956)
Are you saying that the specific electric motor used by VanMoof is useless? If so, under what circumstances? Always, or just on steep slopes or at high speed?
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by dpatterbee on Friday July 14, 2023 @06:29AM (#36721961)
I would say a motor is remarkably useful feature on a transportation device.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by rerx on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:28AM (#36721525)
Market changed. Bike vendors have a harder time unloading their inventory these days.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by oezi on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:28AM (#36722357)
You can get a cheap bike for 300 where every part except the frame fails within a year.

Otherwise 500-700 is the low end for quality bikes.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by mjhagen on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:41PM (#36728931)
300 buys you a fantastic second hand bike with all standard parts that any shop can repair or replace.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by verbify on Friday July 14, 2023 @12:30PM (#36726257)
People have different requirements. I had a commute that on an ebike took 50 minutes, and on a regular bike took me about 1:15 minutes each way. I couldn't do 2:30hrs of cycling every day, 5 days a week - it wasn't an option both in terms of time and effort. Maybe with a serious training program (and if I was older it would be even more difficult).

45 minutes of cycling on an electric bike was still plenty of exercise, and if I hadn't done that, I would've probably taken a train.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by mjhagen on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:33PM (#36728854)
There are kids in Amsterdam getting children's e-bikes for a 5 minute ride to school. I'm still not seeing this as good development, at least not in most places in the Netherlands.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by verbify on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:44PM (#36730352)
As the expression goes, 'horses for courses'.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by ornornor on Sunday July 16, 2023 @02:45AM (#36744281)
You can also exercise with an ebike. I push just as hard as on my acoustic bike when I feel like it instead of all the time. It’s 30C outside? I don’t have to arrive all sweaty with an ebike. I have a meeting or go into work? Same.

But when I choose too I can lower the assist level, pedal hard, and/or go faster and longer.

Best of both worlds. But I have a European ebike with torque sensing, not the glorified escooters with pedals where the motor is either full torque or no torque: I still have to pedal to make the bike move.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by holoduke on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:16AM (#36720856)
They are expensive. All parts are cheap chinese crap components. I had to dismantle the main motor because some slip ring got worn out. Turned out to be a cheap motor you can find in parts on Alibaba/expess. The brakes are bad. The electronics are bad. They almost always fail after a while. The only thing what is good about VanMoof are the looks. Everything else is just shit.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by abyssin on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:01AM (#36721265)
And where they could use standard pieces, they don’t. It took me ages to replace a bottom bracket because the cheap one they had installed was bent and replacement was nowhere to be found easily, except at their shop for an outrageous price.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by newaccount74 on Friday July 14, 2023 @06:24AM (#36721932)
That's pretty much par for the course for all bike manufacturers. There's a million different bottom brackets, headsets, axles standards, etc.

Eg. if your through axle breaks, good luck finding a store that stocks one in the correct length with the correct thread and the correct thread length, and even if you do, you'll probably end up paying 40€ for a small piece of metal.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by sudosysgen on Friday July 14, 2023 @09:22AM (#36723633)
That's really not true. Most European bikes use standard bottom bracket sizes and you can easily find dozens of compatible bottom brackets. Same goes for headsets, axles, brakes, etc...

The big exception right now are thru-axles, yes, but the vast majority of bikes don't use thru-axles (and there's no reason a vanmoof commuter bike would need to use those), they use quick release axles, and those are completely standard.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by beardedwizard on Friday July 14, 2023 @09:54AM (#36724080)
this may be true for commuting bikes that are typically lower end, but absolutely not true for higher end bikes across the model line of all mfgs. In many cases they switch year over year.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by abyssin on Friday July 14, 2023 @11:03AM (#36724997)
In this case it was a low-end model of VanMoof. I could see no excuse not to use something standard, the goal seemed to be customer lock-in.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by sudosysgen on Friday July 14, 2023 @12:41PM (#36726393)
I don't understand your last sentence. There is more than one standard for many bike parts/mounts, so even when they switch (from one standard to another), that doesn't mean it's not standard all of a sudden.

I've had very high end bikes where all but a couple components were standard, and those that weren't will probably become standard soon, too.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by newaccount74 on Monday July 17, 2023 @06:37AM (#36756307)
"Standard" doesn't really help you much. To stay with thru-axles, yes, most rear thru axles are a standard size of 12mm. But they may have a M12x1, M12x1.5 or M12x2 thread. The length of the threaded part depends on the frame. The total length depends on the frame.

Another problem is that every manufacturer has their own standard, eg. Shimano has 24mm hollowtech bottom bracket axles, whereas SRAM has 30mm axles, and they come in a million different sizes (threaded BSA, threaded italian, 68mm wide or 73mm wide, press fit external or internal).

In any case, a bike shop will rarely have the part in stock, because there are so many of them.

Sometimes it's even worse, when a manufacturer just updates their "standard" every few years, eg. the Shimano i-Spec standard for mounting shifter levers has 4 incompatible variants.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by usrusr on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:38AM (#36722425)
Well, unless you think they are ugly (I very much do)
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by haspok on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:38AM (#36721077)
They are expensive for what is essentially a commuter bike. I think they simply chose a wrong strategy, because if you have a cheap(ish) bike and a good U-lock, you can leave it anywhere without much stress. It will most probably not be stolen (because the value of the bike is low), and if it does get stolen, then it is cheap to replace - you can buy at least 5 commuter bikes for the price of a fancy one. In fact, in the past 20 years I had exactly one bike stolen from me from an open basement where the bike was not locked, and there were construction works in the building (=my fault). I do have bikes worth >2k but I don't use them for commuting and I don't leave them around for more than 10 minutes even locked.

ps. I also happen to own a Brompton, which is another strategy - fold your bike so you can take it with you anywhere. Even it was heavily overpriced (~900 GBP IIRC), and it has propietary parts so servicing is not easy. My excuse for buying it is that it paid back it's price in about a year of commuting (by not having to pay for public transport).

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by scotty79 on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:03AM (#36721287)
How do you secure the battery with ulock? Or are there bikes with non-replaceble batteries? How do you charge them?
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by ricardobeat on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:22AM (#36721462)
The VanMoof has built-in batteries that are extremely hard to access. You must take the bike near an outlet to charge.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by haspok on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:14AM (#36721392)
If I had an e-bike I would just take the battery with me. Minor inconvenience for security.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by paholg on Friday July 14, 2023 @06:54AM (#36722124)
Unrelated to VanMoof, my bike has a battery that goes on top of the rack. The battery includes a key, and locks to the bike. To charge it, I usually just leave it on the bike, but you can fairly easily unlock it from the bike and change it separately if desired.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by rerx on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:26AM (#36721500)
They wouldn't be expensive for that price if they used quality parts and assembled them well (I don't think VanMoof offered a good deal because those crucial aspects were lacking). The market for a quick city e-bike is a bit different than the one for a throwaway commuter bike. People pay for being faster and enjoying the ride. Accordingly, I would make sure such a bike is insured against theft and use a quality lock.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by haspok on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:49AM (#36721719)
Having a non-removable battery is a big mistake IMHO, because that's a not insignificant chunk of the value of the bike. Also, it's just a normal e-bike, limited to 25kmh, I wouldn't call that "quick" :) If you want a real quick commuter then get one with a 45kmh limit, that is the point when it kind of stops being a bike and turns into a vehicle. But I think the target market is different in this case, I wouldn't leave a vehicle like that outside my property overnight, that means I need to have a garage or easy living room access. None of this matters for a simple commuter bike.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by rerx on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:08AM (#36722231)
45 km/h S-Pedelecs can't legally be used on most bike lanes, at least in Germany, even at lower speeds. You always have to share the roadway with cars etc. For many that defeats the purpose of cycling.

The actual cut off for the assistance is typically set to 27.5 km/h, because regulations allow for 10% of tolerance... Then, depending on transmission ratios, it can be quite comfortable to ride at ~30 km/h. The acceleration boost at lower speeds is still super useful.

Of course, VanMoof's and Cowboy's original spiel was that you could easily disable the limit in software.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by haspok on Friday July 14, 2023 @09:00AM (#36723338)
Oh, lovely Germany, I remember seeing a couple of Achtung Kontrolle videos where the cops stopped scooter riders and actually checked that their scooter is not tuned or the speed limiter is not disabled... this does not really happen anywhere else in the world, unless you cause an accident. Maybe too many VanMoof riders were caught speeding and illegally tuning their bikes, and that caused the company's demise? :)
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by rerx on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:51AM (#36756999)
You may be kidding, but in several cities the police started pulling out VanMoof and Cowboy bikes because those models came with "US" or "off-road" modes to raise their motor speed limits. It didn't matter whether people had them activated, just having the software option easily accessible was enough (frankly, the manufacturers were very aware of this being illegal). Owners of these Cowboy models were given the option to disable the switch in a firmware update. Newer Cowboy or VanMoof models didn't come with that option anymore. Both brands lost one of their major unique selling points.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by nixass on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:58AM (#36721238)
> I am not sure why everyone thinks they are expensive. > There are eBikes costing 4000 euro.

Is this coping mechanism where you justify yourself you got a good deal from them?

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by skerit on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:57AM (#36720716)
> They made expensive e-bikes with theft recovery features

My husband's VanMoof bike got stolen in Ghent, they couldn't do shit about it.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by moooo99 on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:26AM (#36720964)
As far as I know the theft recovery is part of an additional package and not included with a regular purchase.

Certainly fun, but I think there are cheaper theft insurance policies out there.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by tinus_hn on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:14AM (#36721393)
Recovering the bike and thus not promoting theft is also a value.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by michaelt on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:57AM (#36721765)
Maybe, maybe not.

I mean, even if a stolen bike has a working tracker and you're able to trace it to a particular house, do VanMoof's recovery team have the legal authority to bust the door down to reclaim it?

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Arnt on Friday July 14, 2023 @06:24AM (#36721933)
Generally not. According to a newspaper that followed one of the trackers for a day, the tracker offered a choice: "Give me the bike now right now or I call the police, who will see my data, believe me and do have the authority, and I'll meet you at the door if you try to move the bike."
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by moogly on Friday July 14, 2023 @01:24PM (#36727042)
But would the police show up for a measly bike theft? Where I live, they probably would not, even if you caught them red-handed.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by moooo99 on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:39PM (#36730293)
Maybe they would for a bike that costs more than 2k?
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by tinus_hn on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:17AM (#36722278)
If you consistently locate stolen bikes, you might have a bigger chance of the police backing you up.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Arnt on Friday July 14, 2023 @09:48AM (#36724000)
The security guard companies have some sort of arrangement with the police; I've heard that they can call police and have someone show up in a hurry. Why wouldn't Van Moof have the same sort of arrangement in the countries where Van Hoof operates most (well, operated most)?
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by hiatus on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:02AM (#36724176)
Likely because police will not offer a hotline to dispatch them to a bike theft.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by mvanbaak on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:48AM (#36721157)
Mine got stolen in Amsterdam, they couldn't find it, in 2 weeks I got a new one.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Gasp0de on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:19AM (#36721437)
Well in that case he did get a new one, didn't he?
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Arnt on Friday July 14, 2023 @06:14AM (#36721865)
If and only if he had the trace-or-replace add-on (which I've heard can't be retrofitted, it has to be put in place early when the bike is built).
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by crote on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:26AM (#36721504)
An AirTag is $30. So yeah, what did they make?
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Arnt on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:42AM (#36721653)
You're implying that about $30 is enough to build something airtag-like into a bike? Can you describe how? I'd be happy to learn just for myself (I'd love to do something like that with my expensive bike) but you get bonus points if the scheme is usable for a business, ie. doesn't rely on Apple's benevolence or ignorance.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by 1231112315123 on Friday July 14, 2023 @06:23AM (#36721922)
Not sure what the point here is, since VanMoof does integrate with Apple FindMy.

Manufacturers can purchase AirTag-like chips to integrate with their electronics. Done. Price per unit probably orders of magnitude lower than the AirTag retail price.

Of course the whole "locking system" with companion app is a separate thing. But as far as FindMy goes, it should be fairly simple. Would be interesting to learn what kind of royalties Apple charges.

Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by NegativeLatency on Friday July 14, 2023 @11:04AM (#36725012)
There are some nice ways to hide the AirTag in the steerer tube or water bottle mounts that cost a lot less than $30
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by vr46 on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:10AM (#36722239)
Well the AirTag arrived about two years after the bikes, and Apple won’t go track the thief down for you and retrieve the bike.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by Ultimatt on Friday July 14, 2023 @09:03AM (#36723366)
A more unique selling point is having an easily and widely serviced ebike since its complexity and serviceability is worse than a normal push bike for ordinary people. You can get trackers for most other ebike systems.
Re:VanMoof encryption key exporter by WeylandYutani on Friday July 14, 2023 @09:56AM (#36724109)
Not everyone coming to HN may be aware of this but basically every bicycle producer has an app now.

I'll give van Moof credit for inventing some neat things but as we all know just being the first doesn't automatically mean success.