I think you strongly overestimate the competence of the average barkeep, many are there for the seasonal job or just to fill a gap between jobs. Not that there's anything wrong with either one of those, but it's good to know beforehand so you don't have a drink absolutely butchered. I can't even begin to count the times I've been served a "skinny bitch" that's just vodka and soda water.

As an example of this I once ordered a margarita in a casino bar and the bartender looked up the recipe in a book.

I like the humility

It goes to show how much adult life is and will always be a middle school dance.

How was it?

Terrible :(

Ah, too bad, it would have been a funny reversal of expectations.

That seems better than dumping a yellow mixture of unknown origin over some well tequila.

> A martini only has two ingredients

I think that's the point :)

Just like you'd test an Italian chef by ordering pasta al pomodoro.

Or just like you can test a software engineer by discussing basic data structures and how they behave both in theory and in practice.

Or fizzbuzz

Or test a bartender by ordering a fizzbuzz and see if they're a former software engineer who got fed up with the crunch and left to go work in a bar (something I think all of us have considered at least once).

It's been a long time since I heard a jwz reference.

I think I'm going to start calling a gin and tonic a "fizzbuzz".

Maybe more appropriate for the vodka soda which is literally nothing but fizz and buzz.

buzzfizz, I think.

I've had so many people tell me that it is unreasonable to ask in an interview "What's the difference between an array and a set?"... Then I ask how they'd feel about reviewing PRs from a person that does not know the difference and they mostly of change their minds about it.

To be fair, it does depend on the question. Yours is fine.

I've also seen things like "Why would you specify the # of elements when initializing an ArrayList in Java?", and you just know the person asking is the guy that sprinkles magic constants all over his code. And gives negative reviews when you don't put random (often relatively small) numbers in yours too.

Instead of hardcoding, you can specify a million configuration variables to be determined at runtime, and shift the responsibility to SRE to draft a deployment plan for that :P

You can learn a lot about an engineer by asking them to implement a linked list.

I had a relative who owned a restaurant. One of his tests when interviewing a new chef was "Make me an egg."

What sort of response were they looking for with that? "How would you like it - boiled, poached, fried, scrambled or turned into an omelette? Or a meringue maybe?"

GP said a restaurant, not a road-side 'caf'/'diner'. They'd be looking to be given something good, whatever the candidate wants/comes up with/thinks they can do well. e.g. a bad candidate returns literally just a fried egg on a plate, a good candidate returns a devilled egg neatly presented, say.

So it's just guessing what the interviewer wants?

As a restaurant customer, I would prefer a fried egg over a deviled one.

The restaurant owner is interviewing a chef, not a cook. Part of the chef's job will be to innovate -- new dishes for the menu, small changes to existing dishes when customers ask for it or particular ingredients aren't available, something completely different when a coeliac vegan turns up.

It's doing something technically impressive which a fellow domain expert can appreciate whether they'd personally order it from a menu or not.

Exactly. If the chef said "What kind of egg would you like?" the chef didn't get the job.

I guess that makes sense.

It's weird how different industries work - even if they're both creative ones. If a customer under-specifies what they want, and I just make what I think will wow them rather than what they were thinking of but didn't think to tell me, that's a bad job on my part for not engaging with them and finding out what they actually desired.

Not a customer though, an interviewer who asks you how you'd go about designing the architecture for an IoT-controlled fleet of egg-cracking robots.

You might talk in great detail about SoA design, and the interviewer might be hiring for a monolith, but still respect the acumen, you could still be a great fit.

It doesn't mean the chef's only going to be cooking tasting menus any more than it means the engineer has carte blanche over greenfield design or to rewrite an existing project.

Think if you’re good at cooking the answers become obvious. If you’re excellent at cooking even more so.

If this were a software engineering interview question, it would be five paragraphs long and start with:

"Assume a female Gallus gallus domesticus lays a capsule containing an unfertilized ovum..."

Ha yeah and if the 20 year chef asks "what?", then push away from the table with a shocked look: "um how long have you been cooking again?"

"How can you pretend to make a steak when you don't know the first thing about protein folding??"

Writes: "Did not prepare for interview, strong pass"

* * *

That's supposedly common, but as a non-chef I have no idea what the expected outcome is :D

Eggs are versatile and require special handling, so egg dishes are good for showing both creativity and technique. There's a lot to pay attention to: cracking eggs, picking cooking vessels and utensils, seasoning, plating, texture, how fast you move, etc.

Efficiently making an egg dish that can be served to customers would be a pass. The standards depend on the restaurant and the chef that does the interview.

Eggs are also extremely easy to overcook (I'm far from a professional, I think around ~70C/160F, and the temperature tolerance band is quite small), so there's a lot of techniques in controlling the temperature.

Rumor has it that every fold on the top of a chefs toque signifies one of the ways to cook an egg.

>In 1903, Auguste Escoffier wrote the essential book for French cooking, Guide Culinaire, and outlined 143 ways to cook eggs.

https://www.thepaseoclub.com/blog/the-magic-of-eggs

https://archive.org/details/cu31924000610117

A French omelette is a classic interview test for restaurant cooks, as touched on here:

https://www.seriouseats.com/classic-french-omelette-recipe

An egg perfectly over-easy is quick and super impressive. I've never been able to do it at home without breaking the yolk.

That’s table stakes for a cook. While it has been years since I was a line cook, even I can still consistently make over easy without issue.

Throw the entire egg in a blendtek blender on high for 10 minutes until it is a frothy soup with no indication of the egg shell.

Microwave for 3 minutes.

Add chocolate.

You're hired. Welcome to Chili's.

My imagined reply - as I am not a chef: "What do you think I am? A hen? If you want an egg dish, ask for it. An extra word won't hurt you. I can't work with tight people, I'm outta here."

> "Make me an egg."

I'd be reaching for the polystyrene, spray paint and duck tape. Possibly, a 3D printer to show my technique is up to date.

I suspect I'm far too literal minded for this kind of test but then I'm an engineer.

The man wants to be an egg. The customer gets what he wants.

It's just domain-specific language. This would be clearly understood as "prepare me an egg" by anyone receiving the question in context.

off-topic, but since we're talking about chefs, please take a second to remember Frederic Forrest, who died yesterday. Among numerous roles, he played 'Chef' in Apocalypse Now, an amazing, iconic, memorable performance. "Never get out of the boat."

Coffee also only has two ingredients, beans and water. Maybe a third if you got milk. That’s it, so it’s very easy to make good coffee every time.

Steak has only one ingredient, meat. That's why I make it so often, it's impossible to mess it up.

* * *

Substitute ghee for butter and you've got one foot in heaven.

I love ghee, it’s like freebasing butter.

I love both. Ghee to fry the steak, butter to baste the steak towards the end. Heavenly

I totally forgot about ghee despite having a tub in the fridge, and using it last time I cooked a steak lol. Good shout. It adds a nice nutty flavour if I recall

But butter is only for finishing, to bring out the garlic and thyme flavours. I cook it with a bit of oil if I finish with butter

Nothing wrong with those. But if you buy great meat you can grill a steak with absolutely nothing on it and it comes out fantastic.

Steak without salt is gross so it needs 2 at least

Coffee is mostly ingredient however. Good luck doing a good coffee with poorly roasted or stale beans while fresh beans will give you a proper cup using a press even if you do it extremely poorly (in so much as you can even mess up a press).

A proper martini has only one real ingredient. The other is virtual.

I've said it (quoted it?) before and I'll say it again: A bone dry martini is just a glass of cold gin.

A martini requires vermouth. Drinking cold gin is a fine thing to do, but you needn't confuse the issue by calling it a martini.

If we're not mixing them, I'd pick the vermouth any day personally.

I'm pretty sure that quote from Churchill about how to make a martini is apocryphal.

"I would like to observe the vermouth from across the room while I drink my martini.”

Or "pour the gin and nod in the direction of France"

The Martini you are thinking of definitely has two ingredients - you couldn't make it without ice.

I can only imagine this is the actual preference of two types of people:

1) Those who've never had a good martini made with high-quality, fresh vermouth, carefully chosen to complement the gin (or vodka, for that variant) being used.

2) Folks who've adopted the preference not due to genuinely preferring straight gin to an actually good martini, but because they've decided it's somehow more hard-core, classy, or old-school, due to Churchill et al. (I wouldn't say it's any of those, but to each their own—if anything, the Churchill thing reads to me more as an alcoholism joke than serious advice)

I would agree, however, that given a decent-or-better gin and cheap vermouth that was opened six months ago and has been sitting in the back of a cabinet since, I'd rather have the gin neat or over ice. Both primary ingredients need to be good to make a tasty martini—otherwise, sure, why bother, and yeah, the vast majority of bars probably don't go through enough good vermouth to justify stocking it at all (let alone multiple kinds to pair thoughtfully with various gins) so many places just can't make a good martini. I certainly wouldn't judge a bartender's skill at anything but a very-fancy bar based on how good a martini they make. It's not a drink with an acceptable cheap version, IMO—there's nothing for the cheapness to hide behind.

I'm in category 1 personally. I'll drink straight vermouth (if it's good) as an aperitif. But so many people seem to agree with Churchill I find it funny.

It would take a true maestro to make a damn good martini but even the basic AF store bought pina colada mix tastes good.

Getting into tiki cocktails, I’ve never had a bad one because it is literally impossible to mess up fruit juices and large quantities of rum and other spirits.

I don’t know — I suppose I’d agree that even a “bad” rum-and-fruit-juice cocktail is almost always still drinkable. But there’s a wide difference between a Mai Tai or a Zombie made at a tiki bar following the classic recipes and one made at an Applebee’s. :)

Yes, but like the best simple recipes, the skill lies in picking the right two and using them in the right proportion.

Gins and vermouths both vary a lot in flavor, and a martini is a drink that's all about the subtleties of how they interact. If you get an olive or three in your martini, there's also the element of the olive brine. That could be an incidental amount from the surface of the olives, or an amount added beyond that, at which point the drink is properly called a dirty martini.

A martini is the perfect test of a bartender's skill, just as a plain cheese pizza is the perfect test of a pizza maker's skill.

Agree with cheese pizza, and will add plain cheeseburger. But with a martini one normally specifies the ingredients (or at least the base) as the orderer, otherwise it’s just well alcohol. So I would normally say something like “vodka martini” and they would give me whatever is on well with whatever the vermouth is, and I guess olive juice if I specified. Otherwise I’d order a “X Brand vodka/gin martini” and they’d do the same but with the specified brand. So this isn’t really helpful to determine anything about the bartender. Unless you’re telling them to surprise you, but then you’re likely just testing if their preferences match yours.

Furthermore, the recipe specifies the proportions. Whatever ounces or whatever ingredient. I would argue that them deciding the proportions outside of the recipe is bad.

I think your romanticizing martinis too much and reading too much into them. Martinis are good btw, just saying they’re the most basic drink.

You can only do so much if your ingredients and oven is bad. I don't think you can judge the cook in those cases, only the restaurant as a whole.

If the ingredients and the oven are bad, a good cook fixes that or leaves immediately.

Not everyone has the luxury to die on the hill of quality, and we’re not talking about safety-critical changes to the drinks.

Well then said cook/bartender will be judged by that

Cheers, mate.

Your last line reminds me of this scene regarding a cheese burger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bjDrg5q7ZY&ab_channel=Movie...

Vanilla ice cream. Can't hide behind overpowering flavor distractions.

Or maybe just drop the pretentious snobbery all together.

My standard test cocktails are a Vieux Carré, and a Sidecar, but i ask for it to be less sour than usual. The former is moderately complicated, and tastes wrong if it's not bang on. The latter is simple, but tests their ability to deviate from a script.

(also, standard-ratio Sidecars are an abomination)

I normally do a 3:2:1[1] for a sidecar and get good feedback on it.

[1] my recipe is 2 x VSOP Brandy + 1 x Cointreau + 0.5 x Lemon juice / Shake & strain.

A drop of bitters can make a HUGE difference. There's also many many variations in style and substance. (I prefer a Vesper that's actually close to the original recipe with Tempus Fugit Kina l'Aero d'Or or an upside down Martini with a vermouth as the main and gin as the additive)

Negronis only have three ingredients but make for a good bartender test for exactly this reason. a) do they even know what it is? b) do they know the 3 ingredients? c) Do they know the correct proportions?

It's not like a martini which is a term that can mean just about anything from person to person.

Agreed! I love negronis, but have found that they can easily be screwed up. I've had more barely-adequate negronis than ones that were good or even worth drinking, but they're my favorite cocktail when they're good. They're just uncommon enough that many bartenders forget exactly what's in them.

I picked this up from a local food writer.

One of the categories in which he bins bartenders is "they don't know what it is, but don't try to wing it & when I tell them they make it correctly" and he views that as an acceptable outcome as well. If they can manage to make 1/3 each of 3 ingredients it means he can trust them to follow instructions on other drinks as well.

A classic martini has three ingredients, though I find novice cocktail makers often forget the most important: gin, vermouth and ice water. If you've ever made them in bulk you immediately realize that you need to add ~20% ice water before putting the batch into the freezer (since it isn't added in the process of mixing).

The martini may be simple, but it is not easy to make an excellent one. It's a very solid test of a bartender's skill because, unlike many drinks, ingredients alone cannot carry the cocktail. A piña colada for example, is mostly about ingredients (are you using a good coconut cream? fresh pineapple?) For the martini the chilling and dilution need to be just right. This tests the bartender's most important skill: mixing. Proper mixing of the beverage is ultimately what makes a martini.

In addition, I've had a shocking number of awful martinis served to me.

I am very open to being wrong about the ingredients in a martini, so I checked. I can’t find any reference to any ingredient other than the two mentioned, plus maybe a garnish if desired. Ice water is never listed, so it sounds like you’re having nonstandard martinis, which is totally fine but a little unfair to the bartender if it’s some test. I was thinking that some water does make it into the martini as an artifact of the catalyst (ice) used to make it cold, but then you seem to reference actively diluting it with straight iced water. I think we’re probably just referencing different drinks, I am specifically referencing a “classic martini” from the original post.

I get the sense that this is just a hyper specific hobby of yours, so won’t begrudge you being exacting to the standards you’ve created. Just like some people really, really get off on leather shoes or suits or whatever, hobbies are fun.

The ice water is implicit. It comes from shaking or stirring it over ice to chill everything prior to serving. Dilution from this process is important for the balance of most cocktails.

The drink is diluted a bit by the ice in the mixing glass. It does not show up in the recipe but is an essential element. In the book, How’s Your Drink? The author admonishes the reader not to serve knock out drinks that are not sufficiently left in ice long enough for some dilution to occur.

The cold water making it into the drink as a part of dilution is the whole point of using ice and not just chilling the ingredients. ice serves two purposes: to dilute the cocktail (as water) and to chill the drink. both are essential.

if i show up to a bar and you pour me measures of vodka and vermouth in a glass without properly diluting it, i'll send it back and have a beer instead.

martinis are shockingly easy to fuck up. and this conversation is exactly the reason why the martini is a good test of a bartender's capability. being a bartender is more than putting fixed quantities of ingredients in a glass. how do you know when your martini is properly diluted, either by shaking or stirring? a good bartender will know. a bad bartender will not. a terrible bartender won't even realize dilution is crucial.

Once made friends with a local bartender. Hung out at the place a few times chatting and drinking beer. One night I was feeling liberated so I ordered a gin martini. She must have shaken it for 30 or 40 seconds! It was basically flavored ice water, couldn't finish it.

Tangential, but most bartenders would say a Daiquiri is how you test another bartender. I think I first read that in "Regarding Cocktails" but a quick search does bring interesting confirmation https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bartender%20test%20dai...

The daiquiri is an interesting one because it will weed out easily 90% of bartenders without even receiving a drink. The number of times I have been told "sorry, we don't have a blender" is a source of great amusement to me.

I recently ordered a daiquiri from someone who didn't know how to make one. I received a delicious drink served in a coupe, but the weird thing was that it had a large spherical ice cube in it as well.

Or just don’t test bartenders? They have bosses who do that for you. Did you feel entitled to call up Google and start interviewing their engineers the first time you used the search engine?

In most bars a frozen Pina colada also only has two ingredients: rum and Pina colada mix.

A martini is deceptive in its simplicity. The lack of flavorful ingredients like lime juice or coconut milk means technique and balance are more important, not less.

A good martini takes skill and good ingredients to make. The gin and the vermouth choice make a difference, as does the way they are mixed and how they are garnished.

One thing I've not seen mentioned in other comments is the importance of the lemon twist. It's not just a visual garnish, when the oils are expressed onto the finished drink it adds a big layer of aroma which is an important part of the drink.

Who drinks a pina colada to start a night? Sazerac is the test.