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Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by hayst4ck on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @06:52PM (#36132212)
It's a literal national security issue.

I know people who have two factor codes and password vaults on their phone's that if compromised by a competent attacker could compromise nearly every major corporation in America.

Imagine if a foreign intelligence agency managed to get a border guard asset.

Even from a reciprocity point of view, if we search other people's phones, that sets expectations that ours can get searched too. It's dangerous precedent all around.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by emodendroket on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @07:23PM (#36132524)
> Even from a reciprocity point of view, if we search other people's phones, that sets expectations that ours can get searched too.

This is actually a favored method to do an end-run around your rights: just get a foreign state to violate them instead.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by qingcharles on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:31PM (#36133445)
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by lern_too_spel on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @03:34AM (#36135554)
The Five Eyes agreements are the exact opposite of what GP claims, which of course is illegal and would have been leaked by any number of whistleblowers if true. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/an-exclusive-club-the-fiv...
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by roblabla on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @05:11AM (#36136182)
Snowden showed they absolutely spied on each other and shared documents, though the legality question is still not exactly set. From the wikipedia on Five Eyes:

> Documents leaked by Snowden in 2013 revealed that the FVEY has been spying on one another's citizens and sharing the collected information with each other, although the FVEY nations maintain that this was done legally. It has been claimed that FVEY nations have been sharing intelligence in order to circumvent domestic laws, but only one court case in Canada has found any FVEY nation breaking domestic laws when sharing intelligence with a FVEYs partner.[11][12][13][14]

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by lern_too_spel on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @10:02AM (#36138541)
> Snowden showed they absolutely spied on each other and shared documents

[citation needed]

The very first sentence you quoted doesn't cite any of Snowden's docs that says that. The very next sentence you quoted has a bunch of citations that say the opposite. In fact, conspiracy theorists speculated what you claim after Snowden dumped his documents, but none of Snowden's documents corroborated that claim.

Previously discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35763700

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by CatWChainsaw on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @02:50PM (#36142333)
Funny enough, I started reading Butler to the World. First chapter retells an ancedote from NSA General Michael Hayden. In 2003 he called up his GCHQ counterpart and told him that in the event of catastrophic failure at the NSA, GCHQ would "run the show". Hayden's words.

So much trust involved in a possibly nuclear-level scenario, and you're not curious at all how that trust was built up? Such as by sharing intelligence?

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by lern_too_spel on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @09:40PM (#36146718)
> So much trust involved in a possibly nuclear-level scenario, and you're not curious at all how that trust was built up? Such as by sharing intelligence?

Because they don't spy on each other and they share intelligence gathered elsewhere, as the agreement says. Why would you jump to the conclusion that this quote means they help each other break their respective countries' laws despite complete lack of evidence?

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @05:40AM (#36136391)
thats is eaxctly what is happening and exactly what was leaked.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by markdown on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:45PM (#36133553)
Hence five eyes
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by CobrastanJorji on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @07:05PM (#36132353)
You should probably tell the person who keeps information on their phone that could compromise most US major corporations to stop having that on their phone, or at least to stop traveling internationally with that phone.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by ArchOversight on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @07:12PM (#36132424)
Except that CBP claims that within 100 miles of the US border they have jurisdiction.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by xeromal on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @07:18PM (#36132478)
That includes airports as well so it's defacto the entire US
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by RajT88 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @07:42PM (#36132696)
I guess it's 100 miles from any "external boundary" as well as "points of entry", but not "100 miles from points of entry".

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

But then there's also this:

> In practice, Border Patrol agents routinely ignore or misunderstand the limits of their legal authority in the course of individual stops, resulting in violations of the constitutional rights of innocent people. These problems are compounded by inadequate training for Border Patrol agents, a lack of oversight by CBP and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, and the consistent failure of CBP to hold agents accountable for abuse. No matter what CBP officers and Border Patrol agents think, our Constitution applies throughout the United States, including within this “100-mile border zone.”

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by ROTMetro on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @12:15PM (#36140078)
Ignorance of the law is no defense... unless you are a Federal agent violating people's Constitutional rights. America in a nutshell.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by gammajmp on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @08:49PM (#36133188)
This isn't true. But, 100 miles from our two borders is incredibly abusive enough.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by rand85632 on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @01:51AM (#36134948)
You’re forgetting the coastlines, near which a large percentage of Americans live.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by gammajmp on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @11:33PM (#36147309)
You're right. I meant to say that international airports don't yield a 100 mile radius for the CBP to perform arbitrary stops. Shorelines count; the whole situation is ridiculous.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:03PM (#36133256)
So would you suggest that US Customs not operate at ports of entry?

I guess we could go back to 1910 and only import stuff and admit people in coastal cities. Make everyone from Europe fly to JFK on the way to Atlanta.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by ceejayoz on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:26PM (#36133785)
Operating at ports of entry is fine.

Pretending I don't have Fourth Amendment rights on one side of the Customs desk at said ports of entry is not.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Spooky23 on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @07:53AM (#36137243)
The customs bubble extends beyond the desk. For example, bonded warehouses.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by ceejayoz on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @01:07PM (#36140736)
I said the Fourth Amendment issue is "on one side of the Customs desk at said ports of entry", not "in every coastal area". The idea that you are subject to warrantless seizure on American soil just because you haven't cleared customs yet is a travesty, and I'm glad this ruling has started to address that.

As for coastal areas, though, If CBP can stop me away from the border without a warrant and without reasonable suspicion of a crime, that IMO is a Fourth Amendment violation. The ACLU cites specific cases of this happening: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/14_9...

> Between 2006 and 2010 in the Rochester, NY, area, approximately 300 immigrants with legal status were arrested by Border Patrol agents, then released

They also cite the regulations establishing the 100 mile rule: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/8/287.1 defines "reasonable distance" and "external boundary", and https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1357 utilizes those definitions to do things like "without warrant... interrogate any alien or person believed to be an alien as to his right to be or to remain in the United States" and "to board and search for aliens... any railway car, aircraft, conveyance, or vehicle".

It's quite clear that significant parts (all?) of Delaware fall within that claimed jurisdiction.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by rayiner on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @08:51PM (#36133193)
Man, that 100 mile thing is one of the most successful misinformation campaigns I’ve seen in law.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by 49erfangoniners on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @03:55AM (#36135685)
That's nothing. Check out what the U.S. has done for centuries to misinform us all about the treaties it signed with indigenous tribes, technically binding under the Constitutional
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by bumby on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @12:12PM (#36140034)
Can you elaborate on what's misinformation?
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:01PM (#36133246)
No they don’t. This is an asinine assertion made because of a misleadingly written ACLU piece.

The border patrol is allowed to operate up to 100 miles from the border or in the vicinity of international airports. They need to meet the reasonable suspicion standard to initiate a stop.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by hiatus on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:14PM (#36133338)
> They need to meet the reasonable suspicion standard to initiate a stop.

You mean, "it smells like weed"?

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by 49erfangoniners on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @03:56AM (#36135688)
In this forum right now in fact
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by throwaway742 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:18PM (#36133361)
Odd because I have been detained at CBP checkpoints inside the US without any sort of reasonable suspicion.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by nirav72 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:05PM (#36133669)
Are you a U.S citizen or permanent resident? If not, then the CBP has more flexibility on who they detain.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by throwaway09223 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:15PM (#36133722)
Resident status can't be determined until after detaining someone. Your comment is self-contradictory.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by nirav72 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:07PM (#36134046)
Not sure how I'm contradictory. If you're a permanent resident, therefore you have a green card. That is a form of documentation you have to show at the CBP counter before they determine if you're lawful alien or U.S citizen. The line for U.S Citizens and permanent residence is the same. Every port of entry in the U.S has a sign that literally says - "U.S Citizens Or Permanent Residence". All other visa holders have a separate queue and detention usually starts after they've determined if a person has a valid visa or not or is a U.S citizen/permanent resident (green card)
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by throwaway09223 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:15PM (#36134087)
We're not discussing ports, we're discussing so-called "interior checkpoints." The comment you're responding to is remarking said:

"Odd because I have been detained at CBP checkpoints inside the US"

You cannot stop a person inside the US and request they produce any kind of identification without first detaining them. The CBP detains everyone. If you prove you're a citizen, you can leave after being detained.

This is different than everywhere else in the country. It is the fundamental civil rights violation which is being objected to above.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by kelnos on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @02:56AM (#36135307)
> If you prove you're a citizen

How does that even work? I don't know anyone who regularly carries around their passport, or some other proof of citizenship. A driver's license or state ID isn't enough to establish citizenship, or even legal immigration status. (Though I suppose they could cross-reference your identity, based on the state-issued ID, with whatever databases have that information.)

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by throwaway742 on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @05:09AM (#36136163)
They just ask most people if they are a citizen and if they look white enough CBP waives them past. If they don't CBP pulls them into secondary where they have a sniffer dog that alerts on their car allowing them to search the car and it's occupants at which point they will check their ID and run it through their system.

Personally I refused to answer, set the parking brake, turned the car off, and removed the key. They told me to go to secondary and I just didn't say anything and kept looking forward. Eventually enough traffic backed up behind me on the freeway they just waived me through to get traffic moving again. I know the courts have found it to be legal, but I don't care. I'm not going to comply. If no one complied they wouldn't be able to get away with this shit. Unfortunately most people don't care.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by ceejayoz on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @06:38AM (#36136721)
It’s basically this meme in real life. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/family-guy-skin-color-chart
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by spiralpolitik on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @07:33AM (#36137074)
Lying to a federal investigator is an offense. It's usually how the feds get you if they can't make anything else stick (see Martha Stewart).

Usually with the border patrol stops a vehicle they ask if there are any non-citizens in the vehicle. If you lie at this point and they don't believe you it would likely give cause to investigate further. So either tell the truth or shut up.

Given that any documented not-citizens are supposed to carry their permanent resident card or passport with them at all times then the assumption is that any not-citizens are doing just that so can easily prove their status. Not everyone does and in recent years they've been policing this a lot harder than they used to and you can find yourself in hot water if you encounter the wrong officer (most cases you will get a very stern talking to).

So if you aren't carrying a permanent resident card or passport then the assumption is that you are either a citizen or undocumented. How hard they push to find out which depends on the bias of the officer making the stop.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by throwaway09223 on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @09:17AM (#36138021)
> How does that even work?

Look up "stop and identify." You don't have to present any kind of documents if you're a citizen. You do have to identify yourself, and yes it's vaguely defined. Generally this means name and address. An ID will also provide this info.

The officers will call in your information, check warrants and resident status, etc.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by rnk on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @06:51AM (#36136798)
I lived in Arizona, they have these checkpoints everywhere, many miles from the border. They just stop everyone and harass whomever they want. This is not "at the border", this is 30 miles up the freeway. They questioned my friend from India once, insisting he was pretending to be from that country, he was really from Mexico they said.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:18PM (#36133744)
You should file a complaint with the inspector general.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by ceejayoz on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:32PM (#36133817)
I'm quite certain they're aware; it's very much a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Border_Patrol_in...

> The United States Supreme Court ruled that Border Patrol agents may stop a vehicle at fixed checkpoints for brief questioning of its occupants even if there is no reason to believe that the particular vehicle contains illegal people. The Court further held that Border Patrol agents "have wide discretion" to refer motorists selectively to a secondary inspection area for additional brief questioning.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Spooky23 on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @07:52AM (#36137237)
That’s not detention. It’s the same operating theory as DWI or Registration checkpoints.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by ceejayoz on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @08:17AM (#36137432)
I think SCOTUS was wrong to permit those, too, but they're significantly different. Registration and DWI checkpoints rely on something outwardly visible/demonstrable; a sticker or signs of intoxication.

There's no outward sign of citizenship, nor are citizens required to carry proof of it.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Spooky23 on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @09:38AM (#36138264)
* * *
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by jayofdoom on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @07:13PM (#36132438)
Stop traveling internationally with that phone: yes, very possible.

Stop keeping that information on their phone: not always possible. Many highly-secure places require you to coordinate with an application on your phone when authenticating. In my experience, there is rarely a non-mobile option presented to users.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by bboygravity on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @02:26AM (#36135152)
Just a reminder that those same companies store that same information on things like Google Drive and OneDrive.

That means any and all of that information is already in the hands of the US government.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @11:30AM (#36139478)
I have seen in more than one remote first org handbook instructions to wipe your corp devices prior to border transit, and restore upon arriving at your destination.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by nullsense on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @07:12PM (#36132421)
Are we talking crypto backdoors or like the CEO of SolarWinds?
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by hayst4ck on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:00PM (#36133242)
Small c compromise, not big C. These are invented toy examples, but when I say compromise I mean things like chat logs, public transportation/taxi ride history, supply chain attacks, etc.

If you want to think about the attack surface, look at companies that serve other companies and ask "what can someone with root on all of this companies machines do?" and more importantly "How mature are these companies security teams?" Imagine compromising a law firm, a public relation agency, or a newspaper. A VPN provider, a corpnet provider, or a cloud provider.

My password vault doesn't have my ssh keys, but it does have my no 2fac required github recovery tokens. Phones have a lot more than just security tokens. They could provide information useful for phishing or extortion, too.

I think you asked this because I used a rather grand example and that's fair. If I were to look at my post critically I think I under-stated both the potential security mitigations in place by competent security teams and the difficulty of really compromising someone's phone, and therefore somewhat overstated the problem.

When playing war games, you give your opponent every conceivable advantage somewhat grounded in reality, and I have given this idealized attacker the advantage of an incompetent security team, easy compromise of phone, and lack of political consequences for taking a phone out of someone's sight and/or compelling them to enter passwords by threat of force.

If you had an intelligence agency with a significant amount of APT penetration, you might look up every person who requests a visa on LinkedIn and determine if they can amplify the position of your APTs. Maybe you have compromised a taxi app or and and know what hotel they are going to and you can steal a notebook when they leave the room.

I think phone out of your possession is a credible attack, maybe less so today, absolutely 10 years ago it was. Pegasus is a thing, and there were definitely rumors that Chinese police had a little USB stick they could put into peoples phones that would install an app that then disappears from the home screen.

For as long as I can remember, it is hammered into every person who works around security that "no physical security means no security." Losing possession of your phone is the loss of physical security.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by ipaddr on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:16PM (#36133735)
Anything you do on your phone is not secure. If you still need to store secrets on your phone: Don't carry your life around keep that phone at home.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by nullsense on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @03:18AM (#36135453)
Right, I'm with you. I can totally appreciate what even small compromises can open up.

My wife's laptop just got compromised a couple of weeks ago, and I've been diving down the security rabbit hole of figuring out how it happened, what's going on on my network and my computer and phones etc. It has been a rude awakening as to the sheer amount of blind trust I've been placing in all my devices. After watching what network traffic comes and goes on my laptop and how much info gets recorded by the system I've come to the conclusion that modern OSes and browsers that aren't explicitly privacy focuses are basically spyware. My new mindset is 'assume everything is compromised at all times and treat it accordingly'.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by hayst4ck on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @04:28AM (#36135895)
Sounds like a lot of fun (actually)!

What OS? I assume Windows? What kind of artifacts have you already discovered?

DNS is a surprisingly fruitful thing to pay attention to.

Some viruses will delete themselves if they detect things like Wireshark or Python are installed.

I believe this is one of the big boy tools, though I haven't used it: https://www.volatilityfoundation.org/about

https://www.varonis.com/blog/how-to-use-volatility looks like a fun exercise.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by nullsense on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @11:00PM (#36147133)
I ran OSForensics on the machine last night. It was my first time running a tool like this, and I while I didn't manage to find a smoking gun, I did find some questionable files masquerading as an installer where there were all kinds of different files and file types but they were actually all executables. I wound up deleting those.

What I did discover is that by default Chrome captures and stores every field you submit to every form in a SQLite database. The amount of PII that turned up was absolutely staggering. If I could only exfiltrate one file from a machine, it would be that.

It sort of boggles the mind that that's a thing at all. I don't ever want to touch a browser ever again.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by XorNot on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @08:29PM (#36133055)
Honestly this is where the current phone industry is letting us down with soldered on memory though.

This whole strategy depends on the fact that by the time you realize you might not want to have your "real" phone on you, you can't do anything about it.

From a technical perspective we need a phone where you can dump out the main memory chips and swap in a blank firmware image quickly.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by nomel on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:04PM (#36133266)
It seems like the "easy" route would be a thin client phone, with just a charge port.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by userbinator on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:25PM (#36133415)
It's worth noting that eMMC, which is the used as the "hard drive" of most smartphones, evolved from what was originally a removable media format: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MultiMediaCard

I suspect it's possible to design a phone which entirely uses removable storage, but beyond devboard-like systems, I'm not aware of any.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by catherd on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @02:47AM (#36135257)
I'm working on a phone which can be configured to dump the memory if someone fails to unlock it properly, keeping only a dummy profile.

There is also a way to restore the deleted info from a backup server once you have the phone back.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by rblatz on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:47PM (#36133922)
In what world is it faster to tear apart your phone swap in random spare blank chips and turn it back on then to ask your phone to wipe its security key and mark all space as free?
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by XorNot on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:44PM (#36134244)
True: a decent chunk of my annoyance is Android still doesn't have an "exact restore" function for it. A wiped android doesn't get all it's apps and my home screen organization back.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @08:56PM (#36133216)
Why? They’ve almost certainly already compromised the provider. Even RSA hardware tokens were compromised by the Chinese military.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by modriano on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:07PM (#36133286)
I don't follow. This decision doesn't stop the Mexican or Canadian governments from searching the phones of people going from the US to Mexico or Canada. It stops US CBP agents from searching the phones of people entering the US. Are you saying the national security issue is that CBP might get hacked by an entity that then gets access to the phone scans? Or that Mexico and Canada will just reciprocate the practice?
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Seattle3503 on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:28PM (#36133432)
That is correct, it is both.

US soft power can influence international norms.

US agents not having access to travel devices means US international travelers can reduce their risk exposure. Travelers can chose not to visit countries that will search their devices. If the US searches phones, it is is much harder for a US traveler to manage the risk.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by modriano on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @11:07PM (#36134044)
The US is in an extremely lucky geographical position; we're protected on the east and west by oceans, we only have one neighbor each to the north and south, and both of those neighbors are friendly. But as a result, we don't really know the languages or customs of other nations around the world well enough to do espionage; we're really not great at Human Intelligence (or HumInt). But we are the more technologically advanced nation, and our Signals Intelligence (or SigInt) capabilities are the best on earth by a wide margin. (Interesting tangent: Russia is the opposite, and it's mainly geography and demographics that ingrained a KGB, HumInt tradition so deeply in their culture. The Russian state kept conquering different groups as it expanded across Asia and has had to manage a massive number cultures, many with their own languages, in order to avoid revolts).

So, as much as I like the idea of being free to take my phone to another nation without my rigorous digital hygiene routine, I know that the US is never going to cast off its great defensive and offensive SigInt advantages. And I doubt this kind of case could ever make it past an appellate court, because every appellate judge knows that limiting Presidential power in any way immediately dashes any hopes of making it the running for a Supreme Court appointment.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by kelnos on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @02:59AM (#36135339)
> But as a result, we don't really know the languages or customs of other nations around the world well enough to do espionage

Where do you get that idea? Pretty sure there are several three-letter agencies in the US that would disagree with that statement.

Learning the language and customs of a foreign country to a deep enough level to fool even people looking for you into believing that you're a native doesn't seem like a remotely intractable problem.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by modriano on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @04:17PM (#36143693)
Looking back on my statement in your quote, I concede; it is literally incorrect. We are absolutely willing to spend the cost to make programs that generate skilled HumInt operators, attract or ensnare local sources, and maintain intel alliances that enable us to do HumInt espionage. Our military doctrine essentially requires that we develop pipelines that can enable us to churn out competent linguists in any language [0].

My point was more that this isn't a deep part of our culture (the way it is in Russia), rather I think we spun up a lot of these programs after the national security apparatus failed to stop 9/11 or divert us away from a pointless war in Iraq. Based on the instant collapse of the Afghan government without US troop support, I can only conclude that we lacked sufficient HumInt capacity to understand that context well enough to form an enduring strategy.

So my point there is more that HumInt isn't one of our natural strengths, the way SigInt is.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi5taR18uZ8&t=836s

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by hayst4ck on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:29PM (#36133799)
If we search foreigners phones, that means we are OK with our own phones getting searched too. If our foreign policy is creating a "rules based international order" which Blinken certainly seems to say a lot, then rules for thee but not for me is a clear violation of that principle. I don't want my phone searched at borders which means I don't want to search other peoples phones at the border, particularly without a warrant.

Border agents with unchecked discretionary power is also a slight against rule of law and I think warrants are a check on that power. Maybe they are more checked than I believe them to be or have less discretionary power than I believe them to have. I am open to the idea that I am wrong.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Dalewyn on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @02:58AM (#36135330)
Entering a country as a foreigner is a privilege and not a right, but you neglect the fact that entering a country as a citizen of that country is a right and not a privilege.

There is absolutely a distinction to be made between a foreigner and a citizen and their respective personal properties.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Mordisquitos on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @05:17AM (#36136223)
> There is absolutely a distinction to be made between a foreigner and a citizen and their respective personal properties.

But that distinction is not relevant in this case. Case in point: your luggage.

Try using your status as a citizen to refuse your luggage to be inspected for contraband or taxable imports when returning to your home country from one with which it does not share a tax and customs union, and see how that goes.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @06:42AM (#36136743)
> Entering a country as a foreigner is a privilege and not a right

We have the Visa application and interview process for that.

> There is absolutely a distinction to be made between a foreigner and a citizen and their respective personal properties.

Could you pinpoint this distincrion?

What would I be allowed to carry through US border as a citizen but not as a foreigner? Guns? Cocaine? Illegal french cheese?

I think you are resting in fallse comfort that your possesions are more protected than those of unwashed foreign masses.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by vkou on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:08PM (#36133288)
> by a competent attacker could compromise nearly every major corporation in America.

> Imagine if a foreign intelligence agency managed to get a border guard asset.

Sounds like a great reason for Corp IT to not allow anything too important to go on mobile devices.

(Which is already how Corp IT in most well-ran firms operates, not because they are afraid of compromised border assets, but because they are afraid of a million other, mundane reasons for why corp access on a phone can turn into a security and compliance problem.)

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by swiftcoder on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @04:43AM (#36135985)
Direct corp net access from the phone isn't generally the risk here - typical BigTech corp employees carry a 2fac generator on their work phone, and that is supposed to secure access to both the corp net and the 3rd party password manager in which the corp net passwords are stored
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @09:32PM (#36133455)
> I know people who have two factor codes and password vaults on their phone’s that if compromised by a competent attacker could compromise nearly every major corporation in America.

That is a national security concern.

And, no, I don’t mean “warrantless searches of those devices raise national security concerns”, I mean, that state of affairs irrespective of US government search policies is a national security concern.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by xvector on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @02:11AM (#36135074)
I've worked at a security software engineer at multiple FAANG where I've held the proverbial "keys to the kingdom." It was a strange feeling knowing that my compromise could lead to the complete and total takeover of the companies I worked at. Realistically, these companies are already compromised by multiple nation-state actors; regardless, I'm glad to not have that responsibility hanging over my head anymore.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by formerly_proven on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @02:24PM (#36141853)
The dichotomy between your comment and the sneering of Xooglers in the recent "RCEs on Google engineer workstations is not a security issue" is interesting.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by hayst4ck on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @06:38PM (#36145358)
> recent "RCEs on Google engineer workstations is not a security issue"

I'm interested in reading that if you have a link.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Laaas on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @07:46PM (#36146014)
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by kelnos on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @02:50AM (#36135276)
Put more simply/directly: if these people put those credentials on their phones in the first place, they should be embarrassed by their security hygiene. More than embarrassed: possibly fired, or at least have that access taken away until they take a basic infosec awareness course.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by t8sr on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @03:26AM (#36135506)
What are you talking about? Second factor on the phone IS how many companies do 2FA. (Not just ones with poor security, but big tech companies.)

And not for nothing, but a yubikey isn’t exactly protected from border agents either. At least a phone has some legal protections now.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by kelnos on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @03:59AM (#36135701)
OP stated that getting access to the phone would have allowed a hacker to compromise the protected systems. A 2FA credential alone shouldn't allow that, so my assumption was that they were storing a full authenticator on the phone.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by throwaway290 on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @04:29AM (#36135898)
steal password + seize the phone to get 2 factor token = compromise.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by tinus_hn on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @07:17PM (#36145769)
It’s not really two factor authentication if the claim is the phone also contains the passwords, the first factor.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by Y_Y on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @06:11AM (#36136579)
What kind of kompromat could I read on one of these phones during a border search and compromise a big company? Are you talking about a draft press release or dirty secrets about large scale crimes?
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @06:45AM (#36136764)
Before Snowden everyone was like, who cares if the government sees my encrypted traffic, they don't know what is inside; or location info. And then people found out that metadata can be more powerful than the actual unencrypted information and can tie a person to a lot of things. So yeah, how about they don't search the phone without probable cause?
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by bbarnett on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @07:15AM (#36136941)
I find it astonishing, and horribly upsetting, that people think needing a warrant is horrible.

Needing a warrant, means you have to articulate why you want to invade someone's private life, and it further provides a chain of accountability.

It prevents rogue employees(peace officer, border patrol) from doing whatever they want, it provides oversight, it provides a second set of eyes, it provides for adherence to legislation and court decisions!

Yet I see people thinking it's some sort of horrible requirement. So bizarre.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by justinclift on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @10:30AM (#36138835)
It's fairly common to have login credentials to business email, slack (etc) accounts.

So that can be pretty serious for senior staff, infrastructure team members, and so on.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by mikeweiss on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @10:17PM (#36133738)
Sounds like the people you know and who ever they work for are the security risks pal.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by coffeeblack on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @02:30AM (#36135172)
If they have password and 2FA on the same device, then it's not 2FA. Tell them to get an external TOTP generator, at least.
Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by prmoustache on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @03:34AM (#36135557)
Most people need access to their password manager through their smartphone. Having an external TOTP generator do not help much if said system also allow fallback to calling or sending an SMS, which most do in case TOTP generator is lost.

So in many case 2FA is broken unless you decorelate access to app/password and sim card, which mean accessing your apps/systems through a second device instead of your main phone such as another simless phone, laptop, ipod touch, or tablet. Most people would never do that for conveniency reason...But in that case the same search rules/laws apply to second device anyway so it doesn't change anything to the core issue.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by last_responder on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @07:37AM (#36137119)
>if compromised by a competent attacker could compromise nearly every major corporation in America.

This is either bullshit or those people are idiots carrying around that kind of information on a cell phone and crossing borders with it.

Re:Federal Judge Makes History: Border Searches of Cell Phon... by aio2 on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @01:38PM (#36141146)
What are you talking about? They can already search our phones. Just have them call Google or Apple and all's said and done.