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Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by e63f67dd-065b on Friday May 19, 2023 @12:40AM (#35997820)
These numbers are not public, but the grapevine is that visa/mastercard keeps about a third of all interchange.

Credit card rewards are a regressive tax on the poor -- literally, only those like us here on HN with good credit can get 2% cashback on everything, the rest who pay with debit/cash effectively subsidise our 2% discount. I enjoy my 2% cashback, but really would rather see a world where, like the EU, interchange got slashed to 30bps and it all went away.

Take a look around the rest of the world -- Alipay in China is 55bps, TNG is Malaysia is 50, Pix in Brazil (I can't find concrete numbers, but seems to be around 22bps), etc. 2-300 bps is outrageous, we should demand better.

I don't know what's the solution here. I'm weary of government intervention in capping prices, but I'm not sure what's the alternative here -- force each card to be available over multiple networks and for them to bid the interchange per transaction? Durbin amendment style caps? I don't know. But I do know that the status quo cannot stand.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @12:44AM (#35997850)
I think the EU model - and as you say the Durbin model - is completely reasonable.

I will say the Durbin exemption for banks with under $10B in assets is pretty silly.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Scoundreller on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:01AM (#35998674)
Are there some abusers of the exemption out there?

I kinda like smaller orgs getting a small leg up against bigger ones. Discourages excessive consolidation. It’s like an anti-oligopoly provision.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:07AM (#35998704)
Before Durbin there used to be a lot of banks that offered points-earning debit cards. After Durbin, for many years SunTrust had a debit card that earned Delta miles. I think that's since moved to Truist. [1]

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'abuse.'

Is Truist abusing non-Durbin status by giving out points for PIN debit transactions? Or are all the other non-Durbin banks who give back nothing abusing the exemption by keeping the interchange?

[1] https://www.truist.com/checking/debit-cards

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by hiatus on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:50AM (#36000639)
Being non-Durbin enables Truist to compete with bigger banks by being able to offer things like cash back on debit. That seems less like abuse and more things working as intended.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Scoundreller on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:16AM (#36002264)
From what I can tell, the exempt interchange fees were unregulated. So don’t know if they went out of control or not.

But even Durbin wasn’t perfect: before many cards would charge more of a percentage model, but after Durbin, raised them per swipe fee to the max. Which can be unfortunate for small purchases.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by AmericanChopper on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:00AM (#35997954)
> Credit card rewards are a regressive tax on the poor

Maybe credit card loyalty systems are specifically, but if you want to make comments about the entire system of credit cards then you should look at the entire system of credit cards to figure out who’s subsidising who. On the other side of credit card rewards the fact that revenue from high spenders subsidises credit account defaults. If you chose to only focus on that single element of the system you could just as reasonably say that credit cards are a progressive tax on the rich.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by e63f67dd-065b on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:23AM (#35998088)
Different CC brands target different parts of the demographic. Amex targets superprime, BoA/Chase is more prime-subprime, Discover leans subprime, etc.

Different brands also have different business models. Amex relies very heavily on interchange, Chase is a balanced mix iirc, Citi is more interest, and different companies have everything in-between. This is a deliberate strategy -- issuers split people into transactors, who never carry balances and pay off their CC bills every month, and revolvers, who carry balances and pay interest. It's a core strategic decision to target how much of your customer base you want to be one vs the other.

To a first order, defaults are subsidised by the high interest rate that they pay. Transactors primarily earn the banks interchange revenue, which is a more stable part of the business, and revolvers primary earn the banks interest, which obviously carries with it much greater credit risk. To a second order, some issuers securitise their portfolios into different tranches, and the default risk is thus pushed to the debt purchasers. It gets much more complicated from there, with different scoring models to determine spending patterns, default risk, bust-out risk, etc. (As an aside, there's a fascinating story around Synchrony switching from FICO to VantageScore a while back, thus making it much more complicated to securitise their CC portfolio)

But, in general, credit card interchange is a cost built into everything you buy, and on which the prime-superprime consumer receives a rebate.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by anonymouskimmer on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:13AM (#35998030)
I think you misread the point GP was making. The poor-poor don't have credit cards. They have cash and debit cards. They pay the same as we do at most[1] merchants, despite credit card transactions nominally costing the merchant more money than cash or debit transactions. Most merchants budget the cost of credit card fees into their regular prices that all people pay regardless of method of payment.

[1] - https://www.thebalancemoney.com/credit-card-surcharges-31542...

TLDR: The existence of credit cards is basically an automatic 2-3% inflation on prices. As a fraction of income, this hurts the poor the worst. The better off get this 2% back as rewards. Cash payers get nothing back.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by AmericanChopper on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:28AM (#35998122)
> The existence of credit cards is basically an automatic 2-3% inflation on prices.

If you want to draw this conclusion you’d have to calculate the cost of the alternative. What would the impact on prices be if there were no electronic payments? What would the impact on prices be if every bank had to implement its own electronic payment system with every merchant? The credit card system integrates a huge portion of the worlds merchants with nearly all of the worlds banks. It’s massively more efficient than the alternatives, apart from other conceptually similar systems that have exactly the same type of costs. Your claim that removing this efficiency would lower prices seems entirely implausible and to me.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arecurrence on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:43AM (#35998201)
Canada already has a national electronic system called Interac. It was established in 1984 and has a somewhat complicated fee schedule that generally maxes out around 35 cents per transaction. https://www.interac.ca/en/business/support/understanding-fee...
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by e63f67dd-065b on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:06AM (#35998344)
The world you described exists, and it’s called Alipay (in China), TNG (in Malaysia), Pix (Brazil), etc (that's why I listed them in my original comment). Alipay and Wechatpay is the standard in China, a country with a population triple that of the US, and only charges 55-60bps, a quarter that of the US. So yes, I do believe that we can gain efficiency by switching.

Also note that interchange is capped in the EU at 30bps, and they seem to do just fine without 2% cashback on every purchase. One might start to think that we can do with something similar here in the US.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by AmericanChopper on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:01AM (#35998671)
I use several such systems, including TNG, and they have all of the same fee structures as credit cards.

The TNG cash back program: https://fintechnews.my/33848/e-wallets-malaysia/fave-offers-...

The TNG loyalty program: https://www.touchngo.com.my/promotion/redeem-your-points/

The TNG cardholder fees: https://www.touchngo.com.my/policies/touch-n-go-card-fees-an...

There’s also merchant fees (which are confidential). All of these systems are just reinvented credit cards. They often try to compete with credit cards on merchant fees, but you’re still paying for exactly the same thing. This “alternative” is just the same thing with a different name. You might find a few base points difference in merchant fees here and there (especially during the growth phase of these technologies), but the alternative isn’t to eliminate the premium charged for processing credit cards, it’s simply to allocate it to a different service provider.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by kalleboo on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:03AM (#35999075)
This is the relevant number here: https://merchantsupport.tngdigital.com.my/hc/en-us/articles/...

Merchants are charged 0.5%. Compared to 2-3% in the US credit card scheme.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by AmericanChopper on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:08AM (#35999498)
That’s a promo rate, and only available to certain merchants. Wait until it becomes profitable in “3 to 4 years”. The only real opportunity these systems have to increase efficiency is to not offer consumer fraud protections, which is obviously of questionable value to the consumers.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by kalleboo on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:20AM (#35999861)
EU interchange rates are regulated to 0.2% for debit and 0.3% for credit and they offer fraud protection just fine
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by thomasahle on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:20AM (#35998435)
> If you want to draw this conclusion you’d have to calculate the cost of the alternative. What would the impact on prices be if there were no electronic payments?

The alternative is credit or debit cards with a tenth of the fees and no cashback, just like in every other country.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by hamandcheese on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:20AM (#35998437)
The alternative is not "no credit cards", it is "credit cards, but with lower interchange fees"
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by anonymouskimmer on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:18AM (#35998777)
> What would the impact on prices be if there were no electronic payments?

According to the local gas station, 10 cents cheaper per gallon. Which is about 2%.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by nailer on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:00AM (#35999045)
It’s a flat fee of 0.000025 and takes about a second for payments to go through on current gen blockchain L1s, many of which have retail Point of Sale systems.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:26AM (#35999258)
You are failing to price in counter-party risk, exchange rate risk, and myriad other risks. Not to mention the cost of having a whole separate point of sale for a currency nobody has - or the fees for converting it back into a currency you can pay your suppliers and taxes with. Or the cost associated with reporting.

You can pay a very similar flat 1/3 of a cent fee for an instant FedNow payment with none of those risks or costs.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by nailer on Friday May 19, 2023 @08:43AM (#36001200)
Cash, bank transfers, etc don't price in counter-party risk either. The only thing that does is Visa, and that's a layer on top of your existing statutory rights. Agreed re: fiat onramp/offramp.

0.3c is still far in excess of 0.0025c but maybe that won't matter.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:09AM (#36009301)
The wild fluctuations in exchange rate and having a terminal for a currency nobody uses are a dramatically bigger risk than 0.3c - and yes, your counter-party risk is a non-issue in legacy finance.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by jonhohle on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:09AM (#35998008)
Do you mean high debtors? A good number of high spenders rinse all of their transactions through credit cards to collect the rewards and then pay them off every month. I haven’t paid a fee in at least 18 years, and typically collect several hundred dollars a year in rewards on spending I would do anyway.

When local vendors give me a cash discount, it’s typically 3%, better than most rewards programs, and I take that.

The few cards that offer 5% in other categories have to be getting that from interest payments or promotional retail agreements as opposed to transaction fees. Hitting one of those on a high spending category is like hitting the lottery!

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by AmericanChopper on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:22AM (#35998085)
Well that too, but there’s plenty of money made off the transaction processing fees. My point is that if you want to make comments about a complex system, that you can’t just take one component of that system and ignore everything else. If you wanted to make claims about what income brackets contribute what revenue (and what liabilities), and to who by using credit cards, then create a model to show your work. Focusing only on one component that you might find objectionable isn’t enough to draw such a conclusion.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by gostsamo on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:15AM (#35998042)
Actually, what you say is that the middle class pays for the cashbacks of the top spenders and for the defaults of the most poor. Unless somehow you get the cashback and you are still the one paying for the credit risk of others?
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by godelski on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:45AM (#35998214)
For those not understanding this comment, think about microtransactions. Who "subsidizes"? The people that can spend a lot but are also addicted. Connection? People that spend a lot on credit cards and gather late fees but not enough to ruin their credit or lose their card.

You know who banks love? That person who has 5 overdraft fees on their checking account per month while maintaining a healthy balance in their savings account. Know who banks hate? Poor people defaulting on their loans that won't get collected. Know who banks love the most? People who park large amounts of money in them. That money makes banks bank. Banks and credit card companies aren't just leeching off the poor. They have various sources of income.

There's more nuance to the system than just "fuck the poor" and framing it that way just muddies the waters.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by e63f67dd-065b on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:51AM (#35998262)
Yes, of course there's more nuance than "fuck the poor". I almost never attribute malice to any actor -- the structural effects of systems are mostly organically evolved over time, nobody woke up one morning and designed the system to fuck over anybody in particular, just to make money.

I'm basing my view on the classic Boston Fed paper https://www.bostonfed.org/publications/public-policy-discuss... . I don't keep up much with the literature, so you can probably find rebuttals and more complex models in the last 13 years of economic research, but I think the big picture largely stands -- all prices are increased by 200bps, and super-prime customers get most of it back as a rebate on their credit cards.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by BenjiWiebe on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:05AM (#36002101)
In my experience credit score isn't based on how much money you transact/owe, but how well you manage whatever debt you have.

I.e. I have two 2% cashback credit cards even though I make <$30k/yr.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by wanttocomment on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:16AM (#35998056)
Studies show you buy more with a credit card than cash. You think you're saving 1-3% but you would easily save that with slightly more conservative spending.

It's also worth mentioning the real business is analyzing the consumer data you give them for pennies.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by danpalmer on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:30AM (#35998491)
I'd love to see the distribution on this. My bet is that most people don't spend more and a minority spend a lot more.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by wanttocomment on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:37AM (#36000483)
It's something as small as throwing in a milk shake with lunch. you don't experience the money leaving.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by danpalmer on Friday May 19, 2023 @08:00AM (#36000746)
I'm still not sure. I don't use a credit card for most purchases, only big things, and I think a lot of people are in that boat.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by mdasen on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:20AM (#35998076)
> I'm weary of government intervention in capping prices, but I'm not sure what's the alternative here

Instead of capping prices, you could simply require any fees to be paid by the cardholder. Combine that with a standard for payment processing so that lots of companies could compete for payment processing and fees would drop really fast.

If someone is using a POS terminal like Toast or Square, it should be trivial for them to support lots of new payment companies if they're all adhering to a standard. If consumers have to pay the fee, they're going to shop around for the lowest-fee card (just as many shop around for the highest-reward card now). You wouldn't need government caps.

You could tell stores "once you accept payments with the new system, the consumer is responsible for the fees." This would drop fees really fast - even for stores that didn't upgrade their credit card machines. If Walmart, Target, CVS, etc. all update their machines quickly, I'm going to find a card with a low fee. Then when I use that card at a non-upgraded shop, they have to pay the fee, but it's a much lower fee since I had shopped around for a low fee.

The issue right now is that the person choosing the card doesn't feel any of the pain. As the article notes, Visa (Canada) charges 1.25% for a regular consumer card or 2.08% for a premium card. I will pay with a premium card since it will give me nice rewards and I don't feel the additional 0.83% that the store has to pay. If I did have to feel it, I would make different decisions.

If you're looking to change behavior, align people's incentives. Another commenter said that they're capped at 0.3% in Europe. Consumers might hate the idea of paying 0.3% additional, but I think credit card companies would drop below that cap if consumers had to pay it. I think they'd look to make it up on interest or other things. As you note, credit cards can come with 2% rewards so they're essentially giving you the whole interchange fee back already. Make consumers shop around for the lowest fee cards.

The problem is that stores need to take the cards that consumers have with little option to forgo the fees. If Bank of America had a no-fee card while Chase charged 1.5%, consumers would move to BofA if they felt the fee.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by ivan_gammel on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:38AM (#35998178)
You won’t sell this idea in Europe. Here the price tag for anything is the full amount you pay - including all commissions and taxes. People use debit cards, the paid amount is immediately deducted from bank account. If customers are forced to calculate how much they actually will spend on each transaction, they will instantly switch back to cash.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by f6v on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:26AM (#35998825)
You can show the full price and the breakdown at the same time. That’s how it works eg in the Airbnb app: I see the price host charges and the fee I pay to Airbnb. The taxi apps show their fee as well.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by kelnos on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:07AM (#35999116)
That doesn't work in a brick and mortar store where they wouldn't know your card's fee until you go to pay.

Also doesn't work online if you're not signed in, or if it's the first time you've visited that store and you haven't given them a card number yet.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by kmlx on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:30AM (#35999919)
but they would know how much tax the customer would have to pay.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Symbiote on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:50AM (#35998966)
In Denmark, the additional fees charged for foreign (non-EU I think) or corporate cards are passed on to the customer.

The price says 100DKK, but they pay 101.50DKK or whatever it is.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by carlosjobim on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:17AM (#35999193)
That's probably not the card fees, but the currency exchange.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by wodenokoto on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:32AM (#35999929)
No, that’s the card fee. At point of sale you usually choose which side does the currency exchange (you choose on the terminal if you want to pay in home or local currency)
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Symbiote on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:40AM (#35999987)
* * *
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by carlosjobim on Friday May 19, 2023 @08:26AM (#36000997)
Wow, so that's even worse. Then you can only avoid this fee using ATM cards or cash.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Symbiote on Friday May 19, 2023 @09:49AM (#36001928)
Very few people pay the fee, most people pay with a debit card or cash.

People trying to get air miles, cashback or similar have to pay the cost of that.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by carlosjobim on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:18AM (#36002307)
Visa electron/maestro are they debit cards now? Back in the day they were only for ATMs and very few businesses.

Don't most people have the normal visa/mc debit cards there?

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by petre on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:15AM (#36002951)
Yup. Visa Electron and Maestro are quite normal debit cards. I have one of those as well. Apart from renting cars you can pay for just about anything with it. Maestro has an ATM withdrawal fee even when you use it in the emitting bank's ATMs, which is a reason why I avoid it like the plague.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by vetinari on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:27AM (#36003081)
> Back in the day they were only for ATMs and very few businesses.

That was pretty much specific to German-speaking countries (or at least they were the only one, where I noticed that). Elsewhere, there was no such thing as ATM-only card (or even ATM-only PIN).

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by qwytw on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:37AM (#36003186)
> Visa electron/maestro

Don't even exist in many places anymore. e.g. in the EU country where I live both were replaced ~8 or so years ago by Visa/Mastercard Debit (since they removed embossed characters the only way to distinguish them is the word 'debit' written in a tiny font.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by hakfoo on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:23PM (#36009091)
Maestro is literally starting to wind down this year, supposedly they've decided to switch everyone towards Debit Mastercard products.

I assume there's gradually less and less appeal for a card that isn't as broadly accepted, and if it encourages more fee generation, all's the better.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by jeffh on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:55AM (#36002698)
Curious what the justification is for 0.9375% (very precise number), given the report 0.3% interchange fee cap in EU noted in this thread? The vendor can charge you more than it costs them to accept the card?
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Symbiote on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:35PM (#36004636)
I'm not sure. I don't have a personal credit card to check.

I know there are extra fees for business/corporate credit cards, and these are specifically excluded from the EU cap. (The cap was for consumer protection, so business transactions aren't regulated.)

Foreign (non-EU) fees are also not part of the EU cap, as there's no way to control those.

It could be poor wording on the sticker, or it might be including the other fees. The 0.3% is just Visa/MasterCard's fee, there's also the fee from the card processor — HN is familiar with Stripe, but there are many companies offering this.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by petre on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:07AM (#36002844)
Danish banks already have ridiculous comissions for wire transfers to other EU countries. Like 8€ for a 1500 DKK transfer.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by jkaplowitz on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:21AM (#35999222)
The price tag in Europe already has at least one exception in some countries like Germany: bottles and cans subject to the deposit system usually have the deposit added on top of the listed price. Of course, one can recover the deposit by returning the bottle or can to a suitable store, but it is usually added on top of the sticker price.

But yeah, I guess that doesn't differ by payment method, so it wouldn't affect the choice of payment method.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by ivan_gammel on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:56AM (#35999432)
Yes, deposit is different: it is fixed absolute amount on a single specific product, it is refundable, so in the end your expense will be the price without it. Also it is much higher than any transaction costs. Transaction fees on the other side do require some calculation effort and you have to remember the percentage.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Semaphor on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:59AM (#35999446)
But a) those prices are straightforward, 0.08, 0.15 and 0.25 are the options depending on the type of bottle, b) as you said, you get the money back, and most importantly c) the deposit money is included on the price sticker.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by eru on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:23AM (#35999231)
Aldi already does a credit card surcharge in some countries.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Osiris on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:27AM (#35999261)
That’s not the case on the US (tax is added after the fact) and there hasn’t been a massive switch to cash. Convenience is a powerful thing.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by ivan_gammel on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:43AM (#35999354)
Consumer behavior in different countries is different and depends on many factors - culture, mindset, local customs and habits, structure of taxes and regulations etc. American system will not be convenient for Germans, for example (I personally do not understand how it can be convenient).
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by qwytw on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:42AM (#36003238)
> personally do not understand how it can be convenient

It can be very convenient for retailers since sales can vary in different counties let alone states:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_Stat...

just try to imagine what a mess it would be if any advertisement, price sticker etc. would have to show the full price.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by mrguyorama on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:08PM (#36004327)
It wouldn't be difficult at all. Price stickers are printed/managed in store often enough. Any company that allows you to purchase online already had to deal with differing sales tax, and everything is owned by like one company right now anyway so they already have systems in place to deal with differing tax rules in different states.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by qwytw on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:00PM (#36006193)
But it's not just states. In California (and I guess many other places) towns in the same country can have different tax rates. Sure price stickers is not an unsolvable issue but advertising prices including tax publicaclly would be almost impossible.

> everything is owned by like one company right now anyway so they already have systems in place to deal with differing tax rules in different states.

Yeah I agree it would generally be a much higher burden for small businesses than for Amazon.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by flangola7 on Saturday May 20, 2023 @07:02AM (#36010854)
Why is calculating the price with correct tax possible but not the advertising of that price? What is the physical bottleneck?
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by zamnos on Saturday May 20, 2023 @07:37AM (#36011027)
GP has it wrong. It's entirely physically possible to advertise prices including tax, but it's illegal to do so.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by ivan_gammel on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:24PM (#36004512)
I see it as a mess in the tax system being projected to customers. I do not understand the choice of taxpayers to have such system.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by qwytw on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:04PM (#36006244)
Well local jurisdictions are funded by sales taxes they themselves set. You live in a tourist town? Well higher sales tax results in more funding for local services and possibly lower property taxes and you could just drive to the next town if you want to save the 1-2%. What's not to like?
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by ivan_gammel on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:33PM (#36007103)
There’s so much wrong with this, that I don’t know where to start. So let’s start with the elephant in the room: driving to next town to buy something that is available locally is generally a red flag of market economy failure, because it is incredibly inefficient and environmentally harmful.

Then there’s an incentive to produce higher inequality: high sales tax affects mostly poor, while low property tax usually benefits rich. Poor people are usually underrepresented in democratic institutions, so it would not be surprising if inverse redistribution would be a frequent problem.

Finally, local tax as a way to fund communities is not the only alternative and relying on it would mean that some communities will never get out of financial trouble. Tourist towns are minority, after all. Other countries just keep some of the collected VAT locally and redistribute excesses from richer to poorer communities through federal transfers (German solidarity tax did exactly that, for example).

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Semaphor on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:00AM (#35999449)
And people in Europe are usually puzzled why you’d have such a crazy system, yes.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by brewdad on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:06AM (#36002837)
Largely due to inertia, consumer psychology where lower sticker prices encourage more purchases even when consumers know the checkout price will be higher, and the fact that taxes can be different based on the type of item you are buying and the exact jurisdiction you are buying it. Two identical stores across the street from each other can have different tax rates if they are in different tax jurisdictions.

The stores have the info to calculate this, and do at checkout, so it's really the first two points mostly.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by yamtaddle on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:26AM (#36003076)
The two of my (American) kids who've gotten old enough to buy stuff on their own, even if it's just us sending them into a convenience store with money for something, have immediately recognized this system as idiotic, and they frequently complain about it. It's so plainly-stupid that, literally, even a child can see it.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by qwytw on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:47AM (#36003314)
Because sales taxes are ussually set by the local jurisdiction.

So it could 10.25% in one place, 9.75% in the next town 8.750% and 8.975% if you drive for another 15-20 minutes. Imagine if you run a business, have multiple locations and want to buy a TV/Billboard/etc. ad with the price how would that work? You'd also need to make different price stickers, won't be able to print the price on the packaging etc.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by beojan on Friday May 19, 2023 @12:35PM (#36003856)
You could set one tax included price, so the actual revenue you get would vary slightly in different places. Costs already vary based on location so I don't see a huge issue there.

Of course this does change the incentives for localities setting their sales tax, and they might be inclined to set them higher if the cost isn't borne by local residents. I don't know if that's a bad thing, if that money improves local services and / or lowers other taxes.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Broken_Hippo on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:10AM (#36000195)
That's because it has never been that way in the US, or at least not during my lifetime (I'm over 40). Having the fees be added on wouldn't be much different from an increase in sales tax or having your phone bill be more because the quoted prices don't include tax. Cash already has surprise totals.

Convenience isn't even a factor.

Compared to other places, where the price is what you pay (in most cases). You would be adding inconvenience and a little uncertainty to one form of payment. Americans would switch too, if this were the case.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by polski-g on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:12PM (#36006319)
The fee could be done annually from the credit card company itself. (ie: You made 300 transactions this year, that is $300).
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by e63f67dd-065b on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:44AM (#35998208)
As a sidenote I hate that sales tax is not shown on the price tags here in the US. I strongly believe that you should be able to walk out of the store paying the price shown on the price tag -- not a cent more. This obviously clashes with the obvious solution of making credit card surcharges a thing and letting consumers deal with it. I genuinely don't know what's the best solution here -- I think the EU did a good job, but I'm skeptical of government intervention generally, so I'm trying to come up with more structural solutions that make it so it's competition that drives the price down, not government price caps.

Edit: Actually I think there's a simple solution: the fee should be assessed on the consumer side, not on the merchant side. Your issuing bank charges you 200bps on your end instead of taking it from the merchant cut. The net effect is the same.

People would hate it, and it would never happen, but it's fun to think about :/

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by xhendrick_neues on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:09AM (#35999135)
The sales tax surcharge does seem awkward

On the other hand, that's probably why sales tax is around 5%? whereas VAT is 20%+

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by badcppdev on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:42AM (#35999351)
There's a great map of the US on Wikipedia showing the Sales Tax by County ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_Stat... )

Sales Tax ranges from 0% through to 12%

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by carlmr on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:02AM (#35999468)
But still OP's point stands. If the VAT was more visible, people might be less accepting of it, like with credit card fees.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Broken_Hippo on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:17AM (#36000277)
I'm in Norway. There is no real way to avoid knowing what the VAT on things are.

I have to pay it if I order from Amazon or Etsy, for example. If I order from the US, I pay later.

Every sales receipt has the VAT right on the receipt. I can see it every single time. If I order from inside the country, I can see it before I pay.

It isn't hidden. It isn't secret.

It wasn't even secret to an immigrant that didn't yet understand enough Norwegian to know.

What I do get is to be reasonably certain what I'm going to pay when I get to the cash register. I don't have to do mental gymnastics with a total if I'm tight on money - like I have many times in the US. It won't change if I'm in a different part of Norway. There simply aren't as many price surprises like that.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by computing on Friday May 19, 2023 @12:25PM (#36003744)
I think this comes down to you being Norwegian (ie getting good quality govt services in exchange for your taxes). Now imagine being Greek. If folks realised they're paying 22.5% to the govt on top of everything they purchase... they wouldn't be very happy.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Broken_Hippo on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:42PM (#36007169)
Oh, I'm not Norwegian. I'm American, I just moved here some years ago. Considering everything, I'm probably paying fewer total taxes than I did in the US - if anything, because I'm getting stuff like healthcare for my tax money now.

Greece is in the EU, which means they are paying at least 15% VAT on most stuff, assuming everyone is paying their taxes (which might or might not be). Trust me, even being built into the cost, everyone knows how much they are paying in taxes on goods. Greek folks aren't unintelligent. This sort of tax isn't a secret any more than sales tax was in the US.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Reason077 on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:10AM (#35999144)
Competition drives prices down in a fair market, but the credit card business is an oligopoly - with huge regulatory and structural barriers to entry. That is, despite Visa and MasterCard’s enormous profits, there is little chance of new players entering the market and increasing competition.

Regulation is warranted in monopoly/oligopoly situations. Either by changing the rules to favour/promote increased competition, or, as the EU has done here, by capping the fees which they can charge.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by eru on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:25AM (#35999246)
Here in Asia we have alternatives to Visa and Mastercard popping up.

Merchants are typically happy to take them, because their fees are lower.

> Regulation is warranted in monopoly/oligopoly situations. Either by changing the rules to favour/promote increased competition, or, as the EU has done here, by capping the fees which they can charge.

I suspect you might want to look into lightening regulations, so that upstart competitors have an easier time entering the market. Instead of piling on ever more regulations that only those who are big enough to afford an army of lawyers and accountants and lobbyists can manage.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Reason077 on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:00AM (#35999455)
Right. That’s exactly what I mean by “changing the rules to promote increased competition”.

This is unlikely to happen in the US, however, where market-dominant corporations have huge lobbying power and can ensure the rules are written in their favour, and any potential upstarts drowned in a sea of red tape.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by eru on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:46AM (#36009447)
Yes. My emphasis was that the specific rule changes you want are probably the removal of special rules, whenever possible.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by dr_dshiv on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:43AM (#35999355)
Part of the cost of a tax is cognitive. That’s why VAT is a great tax. Build it into the systems.

Instead, private credit cards are built into the system. That makes no sense to me. The US system of credit cards does very little for economic stability or growth. It has clear harms to the vulnerable and it hardly benefits the economically stable. Instead, there should be a system of frictionless debit payment. Governments shouldn’t pick winners and losers, but they should build infrastructure for healthy markets.

Signing credit card slips? What is that? Clearly irrational. Visa and Mastercard are not just normal market players. American capitalism would function better without the excessive role of credit cards in commerce.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by robertlagrant on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:49AM (#35999387)
> Instead, there should be a system of frictionless debit payment

Here in the UK we have frictionless debit payments and we all use credit cards. Credit cards have a safety net in case of fraud. Much better.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by nicoburns on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:01AM (#35999461)
Do we all use credit cards? I know people who use credit cards specifically for large purchases. I know very few people who use one regularly for groceries, etc.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by robertlagrant on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:00AM (#35999735)
Seems crazy not to, just because of the risk of tapping a debit card that gets cloned. I only use a debit card to (occasionally) draw cash.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Symbiote on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:54AM (#36000075)
Debit cards are 48% of all payments in the UK, and credit cards 8%.

Cash is 15%, the rest are various types of bank transfer. Note this is all transactions, online and in-person, including things like subscription renewals.

(How can a debit card be cloned, anyway? I'm not aware of any case of this, only a possible problem in the USA where data is 'cloned' onto a magstripe card.)

https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/system/files/2022-08/UKF%20Paym...

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by robertlagrant on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:13AM (#36002218)
Accordingly to ukfinance.org[0] 13% of card transactions are CC and the rest are debit. I'm surprised it's that high for CC, but still, I think it's reasonable to say a lot of people use them.

Er yes, you're right about debit card cloning I think. I'll retract that one :) However if purchase something that doesn't work your CC company is jointly liable (crazily enough) and if your card details leak you have protection against fake purchases. Neither is the case for debit card use.

[0] https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/data-and-research/data/card-spe...

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by jandrewrogers on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:18AM (#36002985)
The reason sales taxes are not posted is at least in part because there can be several independent authorities that can and do change the sales tax on a whim. The sales tax you pay is the aggregate of these separate authorities. There is no central sales tax authority that keeps these changes on a sane and sensible cadence, which is one of the reasons sales tax is highly variable and hyper-local in the US.

In this scenario, it is much easier to change the sales tax at the register than to reprice the entire store every time one of the several sales tax authorities decides to change the rates or rules.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by bombcar on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:11AM (#35998378)
> Instead of capping prices, you could simply require any fees to be paid by the cardholder.

This has begun. Many restaurants near me have a credit card fee, as does at least one car repair place.

No fee of paying with cash/debit.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by namdnay on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:27AM (#35998480)
I was in Manhattan earlier in the year and a lot of restaurants had that written at the bottom of the menu!
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by withinboredom on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:20AM (#35998438)
That is usually against the card-processing agreement. If you want to have fun, you can report them to Visa/MC and watch that go away within a few days.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by hyperbovine on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:44AM (#35998570)
Nope, this is completely (laws vary by state) legal as of ten years ago.

https://www.lawpay.com/about/blog/credit-card-surcharge-rule...

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by withinboredom on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:30AM (#35998847)
Legal, yes, you're not going to go to jail for it. However, in accordance with the contract they signed to get access to the card network… they probably are not allowed to do this. Each card issuer has a dedicated form to report this activity.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:35AM (#35998881)
Parent provided you a link explaining how this changed 10 years ago. You are unequivocally allowed in the United States to pass along credit card surcharges. It's permitted by law, and it's permitted by merchant agreements!

If you don't believe parent, and you don't believe me, I hope you believe Visa's own FAQ.

> Q. Can I add a surcharge to card transactions?

> As a result of a legal settlement to resolve claims brought by a group of U.S. merchants, merchants in the U.S. and U.S. territories may add a surcharge to certain credit card transactions, starting January 27, 2013. Merchants who choose to surcharge must follow consumer disclosure and other requirements agreed to as part of the settlement.

[1] https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/surcharging...

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by withinboredom on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:48AM (#35998959)
Hmm, I think we are talking past each other. It isn't allowed without notice to MC/Visa, the cap is ~4% of the total, IIRC (which is usually far less than what I remember seeing when I last reported it a few years ago), and they require advance notice to the customer (before consumption) along with a line-item on the receipt.

Just because it is legal, doesn't mean they are doing it right -- and in my limited experience, they usually aren't.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by bombcar on Friday May 19, 2023 @08:54AM (#36001340)
They’re doing all of the above correctly, it’s placarded, and it’s obvious that since it’s all done similarly that there’s groups detailing how to do it.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by refurb on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:36AM (#35999960)
You realize that contracts can't contain illegal clauses right? They aren't enforceable in any court.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by withinboredom on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:05AM (#36000158)
I thought we already established that it wasn't illegal? You can, however, create contracts that restrict your abilities or for things that are perfectly legal. For example, we can sign a contract that you're no longer aloud to walk, or buy candy. That's a legally enforcable contract.

In this case the contract is that 1) you tell them you're doing this and 2) that it is capped to a certain amount and 3) you are visibly doing it and the customer is properly informed.

These are all pretty reasonable contractual terms, IMHO.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by refurb on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:30AM (#36000403)
For example, we can sign a contract that you're no longer aloud to walk

No, I can't.

If you have me sign a contract that says "refurb agrees to no longer walk in exchange for $50,000", that will not be enforceable in court.

https://blog.ipleaders.in/unenforceable-contracts-what-you-n...

You said "If you want to have fun, you can report them to Visa/MC and watch that go away within a few days.", so no, if they are following the contract terms, it won't go away.

And Visa isn't able to include a blanket ban on surcharges due to changes in the law that would make such a contract illegal and unenforceable.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by alwayslikethis on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:38AM (#35999337)
* * *
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by withinboredom on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:00AM (#35999456)
I believe so, but it could also vary state-to-state.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:09AM (#35999503)
Cash discounting was blanket permitted in all 50 states under Durbin. [1] It also de facto invalidated any clause in a merchant agreement that precluded this practice.

[1] https://www.atlantafed.org/blogs/take-on-payments/2018/04/30...

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by ridgered4 on Friday May 19, 2023 @08:42AM (#36001197)
Only places I've ever seen do this are gas stations. And I've calculated the discount, I've never seen it be more than the cashback I get on gas purchases from my card. Usually, it is way less. And that is without getting into losing the time saving/convenience of paying at the pump.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by lathiat on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:30AM (#35999922)
That is largely not the case at all. In fact charging such is explicitly legal but also regulated: https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/card-surcharges

The exception to that is American Express directly issued cards and American Express merchant contracts have had such terms at least in the past. Not sure if they still do.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by no1lives4ever on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:56AM (#36000712)
Back in 2005, I bought a car in India. I was trying to pay a part of the purchase price using my credit card. My auto dealer wanted me to add a surcharge. When I called up my card company and complained about this, i was asked to pay the surcharge by my card issuer's call center employee :-(
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by MichaelZuo on Friday May 19, 2023 @09:39AM (#36001800)
The parent is likely referring to AMEX cards, which is the only issuer that enforces it as a global policy.

And hence why in developing countries only luxury and ultra-luxury establishments accept AMEX cards.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:03AM (#36009280)
It's not a global policy. It's regional.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by MichaelZuo on Saturday May 20, 2023 @06:23AM (#36010675)
Source?
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by rippercushions on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:31AM (#35998850)
This is pretty much what Australia does: credit card surcharges have to be clearly disclosed and must be commensurate with the actual fees.

Nevertheless, partly thanks to COVID, cash usage is way down and many people seem happy to pay the standard 1.6%-ish for the convenience.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by kalleboo on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:46AM (#35998943)
Where I'm from in the EU, many shops are happy to go card-only because the card fees (with the aforementioned EU regulation) are lower than the costs and crime risk of dealing with cash (which for supermarkets etc that handle a lot of it might mean paying a security company to show up with an armored truck, having to prepare change, staff pocketing some of it, etc)

So if we're making customers pay the fees for their preferred payment method, is it also OK to charge cash customers a surcharge?

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by acherion on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:35AM (#35999619)
> Instead of capping prices, you could simply require any fees to be paid by the cardholder.

This already happens in Australia. The price is the price, until you go to pay and if the shopkeeper sees you pull out a credit card, would adjust the total to include a 1.5% surcharge (Visa or Mastercard, and you'll likely be turned away if you pull out a different card like Amex).

The problem with this is that especially since Covid, a massive percentage of in person sales are done via contactless credit card payment, sometimes even with the screen of the terminal not even in view of the cardholder. Some sellers have caught on to this and are charging _much_ more than the 1.5% -- three sushi handrolls at the store around the corner of my workplace would cost about 9 AUD to buy (already includes GST), but the shopkeeper then added a whole 1 AUD on top for surcharge. I protested and have not shopped there since, but there's still plenty of customers at that store.

More and more stores are adding 50c or 1 AUD on top to cover surcharge for items well under 10 AUD, I'm guessing because calculating 1.5% is not trivial for a lot of people, and are ripping off their customers. Calculating 2.08% in your head to make sure the shopkeeper is not pulling a sly one on you unfortunately is not something a lot of people are going to do.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by lathiat on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:27AM (#35999900)
The excessive fees have been illegal for a few years now. They can only charge the actual cost incurred. Worth a lodging a complaint about them: https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/card-surcharges
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:01AM (#36009274)
> The price is the price, until you go to pay and if the shopkeeper sees you pull out a credit card, would adjust the total to include a 1.5% surcharge (Visa or Mastercard, and you'll likely be turned away if you pull out a different card like Amex).

That's not required in AU, btw, it's optional. It's up to the merchant.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by jpambrun on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:57AM (#36000714)
I much more value the consumer protection laws that prevents surcharges to be added to the advertised price. If we open that door we will end up with tons of junk fees.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by pbreit on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:23AM (#35998091)
Visa & Mastercard do not keep any of the interchange fee. It all goes to the issuer of the card. Visa & MC charge "scheme fees" which are much lower (except for cross-border txns).

Interchange is public information: https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/visa-usa-in...

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by e63f67dd-065b on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:39AM (#35998185)
Maximum interchange is public, but most of those numbers are lies -- big merchants negotiate their own rates, and big merchants are a big chunk of most CC spend (Amazon does not pay a number that appears on that sheet, for example). Costco (in)famously negotiated that number down to basically zero.

It's true that Visa/MC technically doesn't keep any of the interchange -- but the interchange goes to the issuing bank, and then visa/mc turns around and charges their scheme/network fees, which basically means that the issuing bank only gets to keep about 2/3rds of the interchange (that was set and negotiated by Visa/MC). You can dice it up into the processor fee, the network fee, the whatever fees, but I believe that the general consensus is that the networks keep about a third. I don't quite remember where I read that, so if you have better info please let me know.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:43AM (#35998202)
I’m pretty sure their average take is the number I provided from their FY2022 statement.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by e63f67dd-065b on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:55AM (#35998285)
The link shows their consolidated revenue across the entire world. If you have a source that breaks it down to the US, and specifically US revenue on their credit products (Visa is by far the largest issuer of debit cards, for example, and debit cards got their fees capped by the Durbin amendment), I would love to take a look.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:31AM (#35998851)
I'd love to see it too - maybe I'm having trouble following your point.

If those are their maximums, then that's the worst case for the customer right? It is these rates that would yield the biggest spread between cash and credit.

Merchants that are able to negotiate better rates inherently have less of a spread between cash and card prices right, and are therefore able to offer a better relative deal to all customers including cash customers. Walmart can better control their costs than a mom-and-pop shop, has more volume, and hence more leverage against $V. So if you're a low-income person at Walmart, you're going to be least relatively affected by card surcharges. Definitely at Costco as you point out, I think Citi actually went below cost to take the portfolio from Amex.

Even in the case of smaller shops, Square, Stripe, Adyen, etc have done a ton to level the playing field by aggregating volume and using it against networks.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by tpurves on Friday May 19, 2023 @09:41PM (#36008655)
Visa takes zero from interchange but charges volume based service fees in the single-digit basis points (each) to the acquirer and issuer. Visa makes additional yield from cross-border payments and grosses up revenue from value-added services such as issuer or merchant processing (e.g Cybersource) and from other value add services like risk/fraud tools, consulting etc. Source: 12 years at Visa. Around 20something bps yield on volume averaged-out is correct math.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by adrr on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:25AM (#35998096)
Cash is more expensive to take as a payment method than interchange unless you’re cheating on taxes.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by ramraj07 on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:31AM (#35998140)
Nationalize a universal payment interface like india did. India, a very corrupt, bureaucratic place with billions of people did it. There’s no excuse but lobbying.

Credit card rewards are evil. They incentivize crafty behavior to secure miles or whatever and shaft normal people who just want to live life and get what’s equitable without playing shenanigans. I’d rather live in a world where when you pay for a coffee, you pay for the fucking coffee. Not a million equations of cashback and miles with perverse incentives.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by godelski on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:37AM (#35998172)
> Nationalize a universal payment interface like india did

> a very corrupt, bureaucratic place with billions of people did it.

You're not making a great sell here... you're just saying that this is a thing that a corrupt country does and therefor others should.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by ramraj07 on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:51AM (#35998259)
I said it’s something even a corrupt country was able to do that is universally loved and accepted. The fact that the US isn’t able to do it suggests it’s in someways far more corrupt than even India.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by rhaway84773 on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:36AM (#36000473)
The U.S. has legalized corruption in the form of lobbying. This wasn’t so bad as long as donations to politicians were capped, but since Cotizens United there is no limit, so the corruption has gone through the roof as well.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by godelski on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:05PM (#36005673)
> I said it’s something even a corrupt country was able to do that is universally loved and accepted.

I still don't understand why this is a convincing argument. As an example, many countries with dictatorships have people that love and support the dictator (no matter how cruel they are). Dictators will also try to make this look universal.

This isn't a comment on the banking system (or even India), this is a comment on your argument. You're trying to convince others that a thing is good by connecting it with corruption. For me, this just doesn't follow.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by 55555 on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:56AM (#35998296)
Are you American? Have you lived abroad? Here in Thailand (a "poor" "third-world" country) all individuals and businesses can send instant money transfers with no fees at all 24/7. It's an incredible system. I think the truth is that it has less to do with corruption and more to do with the fact that people who implement technology first end up later with, on average, worse technology. (If you build the first rail system in the world you'll have the worst rail system in 50 years.)
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by withinboredom on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:24AM (#35998464)
The US banking system is lightyears behind the rest of the world in banking, where they still use paper checks and transfers take multiple days. I show my family (who still lives in the US) my banking app and they gawk as if it were some magical thing they'd never even imagined. With a tap of a button in my bank account, I can split a restaurant bill in however many slices I want. Restaurants don't even split bills here (like they do in the US), someone just pays the full amount and splits it in the bank account.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by godelski on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:01PM (#36005620)
Read my comment again but remove any reference to countries or even credit systems. My comment would apply to any thing that the parent was arguing for. The logic is "corrupt and evil country did x. Therefor anyone can, and should, also do x." The sentence correlates "x" with corruption. If "x" isn't corrupted, then the argument should be different. But I'm just saying that the argument, presented in that way, is unconvincing.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by 55555 on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:54AM (#35998279)
FedNow is launching soon. It won't support chargebacks or reversals, which merchants would love, so they may offer it as a payment method (if this is possible). Consumers will then be able to save a few % at the expense losing their ability to contest the transaction. Unless credit card agreements mandate the price be the same regardless of payment method, or something.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by adrr on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:33AM (#35998508)
Most debit cards cost the merchant 0.05% for interchange and provide consumers with fraud protection.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by bombcar on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:12AM (#35998384)
I suspect fednow is why visa and MC are moving now to reduce fees.

I can’t wait.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:53AM (#35998614)
It almost certainly isn't. Nobody's taking FedNow at point of sale.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by bombcar on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:18AM (#36002304)
Nobody is doing anything with FedNow yet because it's not out. But if it works it will grow, just like in the EU where they have similar things and they're used.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:19PM (#36004455)
When I said "nobody is taking FedNow" I meant nobody is going to be taking FedNow at the point of sale after launch in July. It'll work just fine, but it enables things like Cash App, Zelle and Venmo to avoid using debit rails. It's quite unlikely it'll actually exist at cash registers. Out of curiosity which product are you referring to in the EU? To my knowledge they just use Visa/MC Debit or local debit schemes at point of sale.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by bombcar on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:58PM (#36004929)
Lots of larger purchases use the equivalent of what would be in the USA a routing number and a bank account number.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:06AM (#36009292)
At which retail point of sale?
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by nailer on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:41AM (#35998914)
I suspect it’s fast cryptocurrency networks. There’s L1s where you can pay on your phone and the transaction goes through in a second and a whole bunch of payment startups.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by herbst on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:22AM (#35999224)
With 3d secure and SMS verification I would argue that any standard crypto payment is faster than credit card as has been for a while. At least online.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by herbst on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:21AM (#35999219)
That sounds great. We all know how secure credit cards are and that nobody ever gets fraudulent charges.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by netheril96 on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:18AM (#35999848)
In China most payments cannot be reversed. By contrast, the security of payment methods are much more stringent in China.

I was surprised when I first learnt that you could spend money online with a VISA card by only card number, expiration date and a 3(!) digit CVV. Those are hardly secure and printed out on the card that anyone can see. Then the US merchants have so many rules about fraud detection but all of them are just heuristics with many false positives and false negatives.

When Internet companies constantly invents new methods to both increase security and usability (two step authentication, pass keys, FIDO-U2F), the payment industry in the US is just stuck in the past.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Symbiote on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:06AM (#36000167)
Many of the large American companies involved in payments (Visa, MasterCard, Stripe, Square, PayPal) also operate in Europe, and implement the modern security practices required here. 2FA for credit/debit payments made online, for example, and chip payments since... 2004 or something.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by rhaway84773 on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:34AM (#36000456)
American payment systems are shockingly outdated and have been so for decades.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by mercutio2 on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:47AM (#36003315)
Just because things are different doesn’t mean they’re “outdated”.

The optimal amount of fraud is not zero. Merchants, and consumers, both benefit from the equilibrium where there is much more commerce, backstopped by bank fraud detection.

Credit card fraud is just not a large problem in the US, and the extra commerce encouraged by continuing to use a relatively insecure system generally outweighs the benefits of tightening security.

Tokenized NFC payments are even more convenient than swiping credit cards, and they’re gradually replacing the old system, but there is no urgency here.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by petre on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:39AM (#36003211)
Stripe and Paypal are annoying. They refuse payments with virtual debit cards, debit cards issued in other jurisdiction than your shipping (or IP?) address, etc. I'm usually put off when I see a Stripe or Paypal checkout screen.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by mindslight on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:32AM (#36002458)
The entire US financial system is built around debits, delayed settlement, and reversible transactions (as contrasted with bearer tokens). If a digital payment method doesn't support chargebacks/reversals, then it's not going to be used by consumers in its raw form. Rather it will have conventions layered on top of it that do support these things - like your bank contacting the receiving bank and saying "this transaction was unauthorized, please send money back". The alternative would be the possibility of logging into your bank account, finding that your accounts had been zeroed out, and having your bank say "too bad, there's nothing we can do". This would be plainly against Regulation E.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by thegrizzlyking on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:56AM (#35998299)
Miles just allow airlines to transfer portion of business expense for personal use.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Scoundreller on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:53AM (#35998621)
And tax free too
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by eru on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:28AM (#35999273)
Yes, I always wonder how this is both legal and allowed by corporations.

Sounds like a kick-back from suppliers directly to employees.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by dumpsterdiver on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:15AM (#35998405)
Instead of air mileage, just give us the coffee. We can't afford the time off, but we can drink that damn coffee.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by eru on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:27AM (#35999268)
> Nationalize a universal payment interface like India did. India, a very corrupt, bureaucratic place with billions of people did it.

Didn't you just contradict your own argument?

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by e63f67dd-065b on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:27AM (#35998481)
I'm not objecting to credit cards and promoting cash instead -- I'll happily support a total cash ban (quite an unpopular opinion around these circles, I believe, but that's a story for another time). I'm objecting to the cost of 2-300bps on credit cards, when it is trivially shown that they can be 30-50bps (Alipay, EU caps, etc) and everything will work just fine, just without 2% cashback.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by adrr on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:48AM (#35998583)
Significant number of people below the povery level are unbanked and live off cash which is why some jursidictoons ban retailers from not accepting cash.

What's your opinion on Buy now Pay Later for online retailers? fee is close to 5% but allows customers to pay for items with interest free installments over 90 days.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Faaak on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:17AM (#36000280)
In some countries, citizens have the right of opening a bank account though
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by sumedh on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:19AM (#36000300)
> I'll happily support a total cash ban

So if you say something negative about the govt and the govt bans your access to e payments, would you still support that?

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by laratied on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:11PM (#36006311)
It will never happen anyway.

We are never going to ban cash in the US because government officials need the anonymity of cash just as much if not more than your local drug dealer.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by usernew on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:03AM (#35998686)
This is a perpetuated lie based on half-information. It is technically correct. If you are comparing a place that only takes cash, and a place that only takes plastic. This place does not exist. This thing exists, is called a vending machine, and it is indeed cheaper for my bag of chips to be cashless.

If a business takes both cash and cards, allowing cards In Addition to already taking cash, does not cost more. It costs a lot less.

But don't take my word for it. Just look at how many places kept trying to offer discounts for cash, how hard and for how many decades the card companies lobbied against that, and how many places do that now since it became illegal for credit cards to force that into their vendor agreements.

Let me give you an example of the logic used for the statement. A 5 ton truck is faster than a porshe 911.

When the truck is cruising on the highway and the porshe is starting off a red light.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by amscanne on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:22AM (#35998798)
What is your argument here?

I believe the oft-cited reason cash is more expensive is primarily due to shrinkage, which is on the same order as the credit card fees (unless you’re a family-run business or have only amazingly trustworthy employees). Cash-only discounts can be just as easily explained by the “flexibility” cash provides — you can’t assume the conclusion as a fact. The fact that most cash discounts are greater than 1% generally supports this idea, since a business offering a 3% cash discount definitely earns less than taking plastic. (But the accounting “flexibility” is worth more than that 3%.)

Are you saying this is not true, and cash shrinkage is less than the fees?

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by usernew on Saturday May 20, 2023 @05:46PM (#36015906)
What I am saying, is what I said. Which has little to do with that to which you are replying. Please read it, and reply to that if you so choose.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by amscanne on Sunday May 21, 2023 @11:57AM (#36022236)
You just asserted it was a lie, but didn’t say why. I want to know how you are refuting the “cashless is cheaper” argument? All of the business owners I know value cash only for the ability to declare a bit less, the fees are a wash with the complexity of dealing with cash. If you are arguing that there is another reason it’s cheaper but not saying how — please tell us! Or are you talking about the every-day, minor tax fraud that makes it cheaper?
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by adrr on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:59PM (#36007776)
Multiple restaurants around me only take card. Also airlines. I work for a dtc company and we would go cashless at our stores unless we are forced to by mall management. Cash is expensive to handle.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/04/15/cashless-res...

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by usernew on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:12PM (#36009039)
Got it - I was wrong about that second part. The restaurants around you don't serve people who are poor, or people under 18. Smart choice.

Several restaurants around you (I've never seen one, ever) being bigoted and rejecting business, does not mean your general statement is true. 99.(99999?)% of physical businesses also take cash. A blanket generalization, like the statement to which I replied, is based on - umm - the general case. a .0001% case of it being true doesn't make it true.

Trees you see, don't grow on land. Because I saw one growing through the water in a shallow lake once.

Here in the real world, the polar opposite of what was stated is actually true. In fact, I'll bet you a lot more businesses Only take cash than only take credit. Adding credit to a business that does cash (most businesses), is expensive. Adding cash to a business that does credit (count them on one hand) is also expensive.

You seem to not understand that, so I do have more tree and fern examples - just ask. You'll have to wait a couple of days if you want other kinds of flora however, as my brain turns slowly.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by carlosjobim on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:26AM (#35999254)
This is mostly a myth. If your business has high revenue, that is a lot of money in fees to CC processors. Of course if you prefer CCs then you can invent a bunch of imaginary costs for handling cash.

This idea of businesses that are handling cash are cheating on taxes is about as right as saying men with moustaches are burglars.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by cardosof on Friday May 19, 2023 @01:31AM (#35998136)
+1 for Pix. It's great, amazing that the Brazil Central Bank pulled that off, it's better than what people have in most developed countries.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by polotics on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:55AM (#35998633)
You are talking about fractions of a percent, for transactions where banks in aggregate take some risk, while Google and Apple keep their 30.000/100.000 ransom on all transactions...
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by ztrww on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:15AM (#35998754)
Because it’s a relatively insignificant market? However it’s pretty remarkable that Apple only makes a few billion less than Visa from its AppStore despite of the processed amount being 100x+ lower.

I guess the problem with the 30% is that it seemed like a very good deal for developers back in ~2010 compared to all other options.. but well it there is no incentive to lower it even more since there is no competition

Then again Steam and GOG for instance can still take 30% despite operating on perfectly open platforms so they must provide some value.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by rjmunro on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:19AM (#35999210)
This is a bank to bank fee. The merchant's bank will charge the merchant a higher fee than this. The banks take no risk here because normally they any fraud get's paid by the merchant through charge back. The only risk is that the merchant goes away completely, but banks have to deal with that possibility all the time.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by eru on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:26AM (#35999260)
The payout to the merchant is delayed, isn't it? So if they go away, they don't get paid anyway?
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by rjmunro on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:38AM (#35999336)
That's one of the ways merchant's banks mitigate the risk, yes. But you have 120 days to make a chargeback, and I think most banks don't delay the payment that long.

I believe bigger merchants with better credit ratings can normally negotiate faster repayments.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by jiggywiggy on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:06AM (#35998697)
Still don't understand why US is so obsessed with credit cards. Debit is much more easy and straight forward, it's the standard in EU. Most of us only have cc to purchase stuff from US sites. Why such a complicated solution? Looks like a bank product.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by crooked-v on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:11AM (#35998730)
You can't use a US debit card online, because functionality for that just doesn't exist in the US banking system.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:52AM (#35998983)
[edit] Edit, for clarity: You can't use it as a debit transaction. You can plug it into credit card systems, where it's run as a credit card transaction and interchange fees apply.

That's not actually true. Card-not-present debit is a separate transaction category than card-not-present credit. Durbin requires that debit routing be available for all debit transactions, not just PIN debit. Further, as of October 2022 the Fed amended the Regulation II rule to extend Durbin debit least-cost routing to card-not-present transactions. [2]

[1] https://www.cardrates.com/advice/atm-card-vs-debit-card-vs-c...

[2] https://cmspi.com/nam/en/resources/content/card-not-present-...

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by CapstanRoller on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:01AM (#35999055)
You absolutely can use USAmerican debit cards for online purchases. You just expose yourself to massive risk by doing so (e.g. getting your checking account drained).
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:08AM (#35999131)
Your liability is strictly limited in this case - similarly to credit cards, but not identically. Unfortunately you're out the funds until a resolution is reached which can be challenging to say the least.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by herbst on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:30AM (#35999290)
What is the difference with credit cards? Just recently YouTube charged me 10 times for something and drained my credit card. My bank was clueless and explained I get the money back within 4 weeks. Only because YouTube doesn't suck so bad I got the money back within a few days.

I never paid for anything on YouTube. Nobody ever explained how that could happen

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by arcticbull on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:37AM (#35999333)
There's a few high-level and a few silly low-level differences.

(1) With a credit card, your fraud liability is almost always zero (but technically $50). With a debit card, it varies - I think by law it's $0 if you report the card lost or stolen before it's used, $50 if you report it within 2 days, $500 if you report it within 60 days and unlimited after 60 days. For card-not-present I think it's 60 days for zero liability.

(2) With a credit card, you simply don't pay the fraudulent charge until resolved. With a debit card, the money is out of your account until resolved.

(3) There's some weird arcana in the Fair Credit Billing Act about common carrier bankruptcy. In some cases, you're not liable if an airline goes bankrupt after you book but before your trip. This doesn't apply to debit cards. [2]

[1] https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/credit-cards/credit-card-...

[2] https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/service-cessation...

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by alibarber on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:07AM (#35999114)
I'm confused - this commenter says the only reason some population of the EU have a credit card is to purchase stuff from US websites. Which to me implies that their EU debit card only works locally.

In my corner of the EU - I don't recognise this at all as every debit card you would get from a bank here (as an adult with no bad credit judgements) is Visa branded and works just fine anywhere worldwide that would be set up to handle Visa (electronically at least).

People who make a habit of purchasing stuff abroad might well seek out a bank with a low/no currency exchange fee - and it could be that a credit card is more effective here, but it's nothing to do with the fundamental debit vs credit, and once again, simply isn't something that's generalise-able across the entire EU.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by kalleboo on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:17AM (#35999196)
I believe they're being phased out everywhere now but historically debit cards were something like Maestro, "Visa Electron", EC Card, Girocard, etc. Maybe the GP is still somewhere where those are still in use. I believe Germany is one of the big laggards in this space.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by herbst on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:28AM (#35999271)
Same here in Switzerland. Most cards I see now have dual use and work as debit and credit card with visa or master.

My card works everywhere and even credit card transactions appear as slow debit transactions.

I also don't pay any fees for any of that. Only the merchants do in my case.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by Symbiote on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:16AM (#36000272)
European debit cards work as debit cards, the distinction is the network used.

My Danish debit card supports both Visa and Dankort, the Danish network. Danish companies will generally put the transaction through Dankort, as the fees are lower, but it's still a debit transaction if it goes through Visa's network.

Dankort only cards begin with the number 5019. Visa+Dankort with 4571.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by refurb on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:40AM (#35999986)
Debit is actually terrible and I've never used it. If there is an error, it your money that is gone until it's fixed.

Slightly related, I never allow direct debit from my bank account for things like utilities. It's blanket permission to take money they think they are owed. A friend had a problem with his electricity, the public utility came out, said the meter was tampered with, replaced it and charged him $1000 right from his account.

Of course they were wrong. He got the money back, two months later.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by jiggywiggy on Wednesday May 24, 2023 @04:54PM (#36063726)
Not true. It depends on how you pay. Most automatislc payments in EU are actually SEPA Payments and are much easier to revert. One click in your bank app or online, within 3 months no arguing.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by eru on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:22AM (#35999225)
Yes, I'd like to see a world without silly credit card cashbacks, too. And ideally they'd slay that beast by removing regulations, not by piling more on top.

> I don't know what's the solution here. I'm weary of government intervention in capping prices, but I'm not sure what's the alternative here -- force each card to be available over multiple networks and for them to bid the interchange per transaction? Durbin amendment style caps? I don't know. But I do know that the status quo cannot stand.

Perhaps make it easier for new payment providers to enter the market? Here in Asia we have lots of alternatives popping up (like Grab pay). And merchants are happy to support them, because they typically charge lower fees than Visa and Mastercard.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by flangola7 on Saturday May 20, 2023 @07:06AM (#36010875)
I don't see why everyone in thread is so allergic to regulating it. I vote for the representatives I do precisely because I want these types of practices controlled.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by londons_explore on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:57AM (#35999715)
I think there is a strong case for credit card fees to be zero for all involved, and the government paying some fixed amount for the running of basic payment processing systems.

Just like the government pays to produce bank notes and coins today.

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by hiatus on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:57AM (#36000715)
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by acchow on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:32AM (#35999934)
They charge more yes, but make of the credit cards in the US also provide a lot more: travel insurance, Trip interruption insurance, purchase protection, extended warranty, etc.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by bmitc on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:35AM (#35999946)
For people who can obtain such cards and pay them off, yes.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by bmitc on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:34AM (#35999941)
What is bps?
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by hiatus on Friday May 19, 2023 @08:02AM (#36000775)
Basis points.
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by bmitc on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:07AM (#36002851)
Thank you!
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by eliseumds on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:16AM (#36000270)
You're correct about Pix, it averages at 0,22% [1]. It's free for personal transactions and some card/POS machines have zeroed the fees when you scan a Pix QR code to pay at small shops. It's currently the most popular payment method in Brazil (credit card is second) [2]. It's slower than just tapping my Apple Watch to pay, but tap-to-pay with Pix is in development and I can't wait for it. Installments are also coming. Our Banco Central is really pushing it and the big banks are not liking it, at all. Good.

A nice side-effect of it all is that many credit cards are offering great rewards without any annual fee. I get year-round access to VIP lounges at any airport here, car/travel insurance AND cashback/miles for $0, it's a very different scenario from say 5 years ago.

[1] https://www.infomoney.com.br/minhas-financas/pix-e-mais-bara...

[2] https://febrabantech.febraban.org.br/temas/meios-de-pagament...

Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by rhaway84773 on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:33AM (#36000445)
India could be a good model here. Basically, the likes of Venmo/Zelle have replaced everything. They are not allowed to charge a transaction fee (I’m pretty sure…and if they are, it’s set very low), and they are required to work across platforms (so a Venmo user should be able to pay a Zelle user directly without having to download Zelle).
Re:Visa and Mastercard agree to lower average credit card in... by throwawayy1224 on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:28PM (#36009110)
Pix and other types of instant payments systems are very different products from credit cards. I'm not sure if it is a fair comparison.