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Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by sschueller on Monday March 20, 2023 @03:52PM (#35237622)
The Swiss are extremely pissed. They spent a lot of capital and time to put up the to big to fail laws which this bank met yet it still failed.

CS paid over 32 Billion in bonuses since 2013![1] Meanwhile people aren't getting paid more to balance the inflation.

I also see a lot of US blaming going around specifically because of the capital regulations that the EU and Switzerland put in place since 2008 and supposedly the US did not. Also supposedly profited over them because they did not need to meet as strict of capital requirements. I don't hear much about SVB however.

The news has also reported that the Swiss government wanted to let the US branch of CS fail but there was enormous pressure from the US to prevent this.

There are a lot of details of this deal that aren't clear yet but I do have the feeling everyone here more or less agrees this was the only option. The focus seems to be on why it came to this situation in the first place. There is also a push from some parties to push for a government investigation.

I also expect the next pension law adjustment coming up to have a very hard time after all this.

[1] https://www.blick.ch/politik/trotz-hilfe-vom-staat-darum-sol...

Edit: Spelling

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by JumpCrisscross on Monday March 20, 2023 @03:58PM (#35237691)
> spent a lot of capital and time to put up the to big to fail laws which this bank met yet it still failed

At a marginal CHF 9 billion contingent senior taxpayer expense. Not great. But being able to tank $17bn of AT1s was $17bn UBS won’t have to raise and Bern won’t have to finance.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by curiousllama on Monday March 20, 2023 @04:06PM (#35237815)
> suppository profited

I think you mean supposedly

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by aussiegreenie on Monday March 20, 2023 @04:32PM (#35238236)
No, I think he/she meant Swiss Taxpayers have had things shoved up their bottom.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by tannhaeuser on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:01PM (#35239390)
I think you mean showed up in their bottom?
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by Silverback_VII on Monday March 20, 2023 @04:32PM (#35238235)
>I do have the feeling everyone here more or less agrees this was the only option.

It was certainly not the only option. The Swiss seem to bury everything that was once important to them. They are not truly neutral anymore, and now they have let one of their oldest banks fail. The image of Switzerland as being a place of stability and smart decisions takes a big hit.

[dead]
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by QuercusMax on Monday March 20, 2023 @04:49PM (#35238461)
I bet you think SVB failed because they were too "woke" as well, right?
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by formerly_proven on Monday March 20, 2023 @04:50PM (#35238485)
The comment is sarcastically referencing GPs "the Swiss seem to bury everything that was once important to them".
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by thrown123098 on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:02PM (#35238651)
The worst thing about the new left is how lame they made being left. 30 years ago we would have had illegal raves during the lockdowns. Today we had illegal church services.

What the tuck is wrong with these people?

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by lazide on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:22PM (#35240306)
Near as I can tell, no one is truly neutral. They’re just more obvious about playing both sides at once. WW2 being a classic example.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by 0xDEF on Monday March 20, 2023 @04:50PM (#35238486)
>I also see a lot of US blaming going around

Social media has spread East German boomer anti-Americanism to the rest of the German-speaking world.

Today countries like Austria, Switzerland and Germany are full of people who will blame bad weather on the US.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by TeMPOraL on Monday March 20, 2023 @04:58PM (#35238581)
> Today countries like Austria, Switzerland and Germany are full of people who will blame bad weather on the US.

Obviously, if anyone has a weather control system today, it's the US - specifically, either the CIA or the DOD. I mean, this is what the TV has been telling us for the past 50+ years.

This is the flip side of Hollywood being the cultural propaganda arm of the USA. You have to take the good with the bad!

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by throwway120385 on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:04PM (#35238691)
You should see our mind control system.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by roundandround on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:45PM (#35239224)
Of course to show them to you we would have to shut them off.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by chii on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:56PM (#35240628)
It's displayed in the open, and it's called hollywood.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by hnfong on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @12:26AM (#35242556)
It’s also called Facebook, Twitter, Youtube etc…
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by Silverback_VII on Monday March 20, 2023 @04:59PM (#35238600)
The Germans are losing their industry because someone blew up a pipeline. who knows, maybe it has something to do with that?
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by dralley on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:23PM (#35238972)
The Germans made a series of bad decisions despite being warned for years by not just the US, but also half their neighbors, and basic common sense.

At the point the pipeline was blown up, Russia had already essentially cut off the flow with their "oh dear, the turbine seems to be malfunctioning" antics.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by cronix on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:09PM (#35239493)
US: Hey Germany, you shouldn't be so reliant on Russian NG/Oil (buy ours instead)

Germany: We're ok, thank you for your concern

Russia: cuts back NG/Oil going through pipelines to Germany

US: Let's just make that permanent. Germany doesn't know what's good for itself. Boom. Hey Germany, now that you can't get it from Russia, would you like to buy some of ours? We've been telling you, ahem, warning you, for years, friend.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by lazide on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:20PM (#35240276)
Everything in international politics (and many other things) is about leverage, power, etc.

Allies are just those with interests that align closely enough that destroying each other would hurt everyone more than it’s worth. Doesn’t stop the manipulation.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by dralley on Monday March 20, 2023 @08:01PM (#35240675)
US, UK, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czechia:

Germany, you shouldn't be so reliant on Russian gas/oil while they are actively invading their neighbors, shooting down airliners, blowing up ammunition depots and using nerve agents on NATO territory.

Germany, France: ...

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by vkou on Monday March 20, 2023 @09:08PM (#35241251)
"You're making the wrong decision, so we're going to 'help' by make the decision for you" is how you treat subjects and vassals, not peer nations and allies. Don't spin it like it was a favour.

Imagine the reaction if, say, the Saudis, or China blew up the Keystone pipeline... Because the US is making the wrong decision of being reliant on the wrong source of foreign oil.

Regardless of the merits of their argument, it's not their pipeline, it's not their call to make.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by def_true_false on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @10:07PM (#35255835)
1. Why are you taking Russian disinfo at face value?

2. Others were affected by the construction of the pipeline, yet their concerns were brushed aside with nothing better than hand waving and a load of Wandel durch Handel rubbish. To be honest, I'm not sure why anyone east of Germany should care one bit about what German anti-NATO boomers think. To make it crystal clear, national security of Eastern European allies is not something for Germany to trade away -- it never was. We will have our security, if it comes to that, at the cost of German jobs. Not that Germany needs much help with that, what with the genius level planning that went into the Energiewende and all that.

As far as I can tell this opinion is not uncommon, outside of the German speaking bubble.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by cudgy on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @06:04AM (#35258912)
Also in this discourse:

Germany: Hey, Russia, supplier of our energy, screw you for feeling threatened by NATO countries (like us) and US interfering with a huge neighboring country. Hope your not offended by the Leopard tanks and artillery we just sent to kill your soldiers.

Russia: cuts back NG/Oil going through pipelines to Germany

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by cpursley on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:28PM (#35239039)
When the US says jump, Germany asks: how high?
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by vkou on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:24PM (#35238979)
That's conspiracist talk, pipelines blow up by themselves all the time.

There is no plausible way that the party that's both eager to export LNG, and has a geopolitical interest in seeing Germany distance itself from Russia (without getting cold feet when the winter starts, and everyone actually gets cold feet) had anything to do with it.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by def_true_false on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @10:55PM (#35256231)
What's more plausible, that the party that routinely blows up warehouses and murders people on NATO soil did it, or the party that has kept Germany safe for more than 70 years did it?

"The average intellectual of the Left believed, for instance, that the war was lost in 1940, that the Germans were bound to overrun Egypt in 1942, that the Japanese would never be driven out of the lands they had conquered, and that the Anglo-American bombing offensive was making no impression on Germany. He could believe these things because his hatred for the British ruling class forbade him to admit that British plans could succeed. There is no limit to the follies that can be swallowed if one is under the influence of feelings of this kind. I have heard it confidently stated, for instance, that the American troops had been brought to Europe not to fight the Germans but to crush an English revolution. One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no ordinary man could be such a fool. "

-- George Orwell, Notes on Nationalism (1945)

https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by B1FF_PSUVM on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:22PM (#35238967)
Worse than that, they were roping in Russia - more successfully than in the past eight centuries - and those economic ties were blown worse than the pipeline.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by dralley on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:38PM (#35239141)
Those economic ties were broken the moment Russia started threatening to cut off the gas unless Germany did what they wanted, which took about 3 days and escalated over the next several months. It has been transparently clear for a decade that Germany was the one being "roped" by Russia, not the one "roping" Russia.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by lazide on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:22PM (#35240297)
Germanys problem is clearly that they noticed and said no! (/s)

Sorry, just getting out of the influence of someone similar. It’s a hit too painful.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by Swenrekcah on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:45PM (#35239922)
Putin has been invading his neighbours since 2008 and finally launched a full scale war.

How would you say that is “roping in Russia”?

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by B1FF_PSUVM on Monday March 20, 2023 @08:22PM (#35240829)
Some people think so, looking at the raw geopolitics instead of the news fodder - e.g. in 2015:

"So, the primordial interest of the United States over which for centuries we have fought wars, the first, second and cold war has been the relationship between Germany and Russia. Because united they are the only force that could threaten us, and to make sure that that doesn’t happen."

https://uaposition.com/stratfor-founder-and-ceo-george-fried...

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by Swenrekcah on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @03:12AM (#35243314)
This is a rather outlandish theory IMO and it also doesn’t answer the question I posed.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by hsjqllzlfkf on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:08PM (#35239471)
I'm an European person and generally mildly suspicious of American govs intentions. Nevertheless, in this case I do hope they blew up the pipeline, because Germany lack of action towards Russia's invasion of Ukraine is an absolute stain for Europe.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by gruez on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:44PM (#35239211)
>CS paid over 32 Billion in bonuses since 2013![1] Meanwhile people aren't getting paid more to balance the inflation.

It's worth noting that in certain industries, bonuses make up a fair chunk of total comp and are expected. They should therefore be thought of as being closer to employee compensation than some sort of extraordinary reward.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by rcme on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:55PM (#35239336)
Yes, but in banking, government bailouts have also come to be expected. Clearly the public should consider bailouts and fat profits and bonuses as fundamentally incompatible.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by gruez on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:11PM (#35239522)
>bailouts and fat profits and bonuses as fundamentally incompatible.

I noticed you specifically called out "bonuses" but not salaries or wages, implying that bonuses are bad but salaries and wages are not. However, as I pointed out, the bonuses should effectively be counted as wages because they're expected.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by rcme on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:33PM (#35239798)
I also said fat profits, which generally encompasses all business activity.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by mancerayder on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:25PM (#35240327)
Exactly. Unfortunately in finance they give you the bonus as 'the missing piece of your salary' for the majority of rank and file. Go after the executive bonuses if you must. The rest of them are just chumps who wait til Feb/March to get the rest of their pay.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by FrontierPsych on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @02:35AM (#35243127)
Right. And that compensation is much too high.
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by gruez on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @09:40AM (#35245937)
That's a valid concern, but "32 Billion in bonuses" is a poor way to argue for the reasons I outlined above. 32 billion over 9 years works out to be 3.5B per year. Is that a lot? It would depend on how many employees they have. How much of that is "expected" vs "bonus for a job well done"? How does total comp track with jobs at other industries with similar requirements?
Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by cudgy on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @05:57AM (#35258856)
> How does total comp track with jobs at other industries with similar requirements?

This is the only factor that matters, but I’d guess most bankers are over-compensated generally given the contributions made to society.

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by FrontierPsych on Friday March 24, 2023 @04:20PM (#35294890)
I understand what you are saying. I understand that every single thing a person gets is compensation, whether bonuses, healthcare, paid vacations, sick days, everything is part of the compensation.

It's not really even about Credit Suisse. It's about worldwide C-suite compensation. It is disgusting.

I did just look at comparisons between USA CEOs to European and Japanese, and America is a horror show compared to them. This is CEOs so I'm not sure how the entire C-suite or top executives would fare against the same in America - maybe European companies spread it out more evenly to top-level executives.

https://www.wtwco.com/en-US/Insights/2020/12/ceo-pay-landsca...

But if the $3.2 billion per year in bonuses still went to the top 20 people, it is essentially the same, at least to me.

But I do know the USA better, so I will comment to that even though Credit Suisse is Euro. For example, Tim Cook of Apple made $100 million in 2021, not including $754 million in stock shares. Cook "voluntarily" took a "cut" in compensation to $50 million per year this year. Oh, thanks, Tim. But is Tim Cook going to quit and do nothing if he was paid $5 million all along? Yeah, maybe now he would, given that he is a billionaire, but if from the start, no he would not quit, nor stop working as hard. People are motivated by more than money. They will take it, of course, who wouldn't?

Nobody, but nobody, needs that much money. How many pairs of shoes and pants does one need? And I use shoes and pants metaphorically. How much shit does one need?

And partly, or mostly, it is driven by boards of directors, who make $300K or $400K or whatever it is per year by going to 4 meetings per year. Not bad job, if you can get it. Just looked it up - Harvard Law School report says it is $290K for large cap, $217K for medium cap, and $164K for small. These board of directors are always high executive levels and KNOW if they as a group across the USA vote the average CEO and C-suite higher compensation, they will eventually get it too, so it is a conflict of interest that screw over the shareholders, and all other workers who are down the chain.

In the 1960s, CEO compensation was 60 times the average worker, or 6,000%. Not bad. Now it is 350 times the average worker, or 35,000% more.

From the beginning of income tax, for most of USA history, the tax rate was 70-90% on the top tax bracket. It came down to 50% when Reagan was elected in 1980, and then down to about 35% in 1986 and stayed there until present. Guess when the inequalities between the richest 10% and the other 90% started occuring...you guessed it, in 1986. you get a 35-55% tax break, you tend to make more money, kinda sorta.

As a matter of fact, the only time that the income tax level went down to the richest tax bracket was in the late 1920s....and then the market collapse happened and the Great Depression happened...correlation, or causation...I vote causation. And the exact same scenario is playing out now. Unmitigated greed is happening.

And what happened is that when the wealthy hit the top tax bracket, there was no reason to earn more. Their salary was capped, in essense. And that is why CEO compensation was only 6000% more than the average worker.

People make the bogus argument that the best won't then work. That's totally wrong, as the best don't work for compensation. They work for competition. And what else are they going to do if tax is at 70-90%? Sit around and do nothing? They still have to send kids to college and pay mortgages. And everyone else is subject to the same restrictions. And when we had the higher top tax bracket, that is when "normal" people had lower tuitions paid for by the public, hospital costs were less, etc. And I've read all the other "reasons" for what others say is the reason for price raises in everything, but I don't buy them.

Why should even a small business owner make $5 million a year while providing bronze health insurance, with super high deductables to his or her employees, when maybe if the owner could take $5 million and get everyone gold level health care?

There's a LOT more I could say but this is enough. I don't have time to write more.

But, to sum up, the CEO and entire executive class makes too much money and it needs to be reined in.

Sorry I wrote so much. It's a topic that causes steam to rise from my skull. :P

Re:UBS Got Credit Suisse for Almost Nothing by belter on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:14PM (#35239549)
Swiss press of today, mentions Credit Suisse are still planning to pay their Bankers Bonus before the deal concludes...