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Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by kypro on Friday March 10, 2023 @03:38PM (#35100642)
> - The issue is that as the Fed raised interest rates in 2022 and continued to do so through 2023, the value of SVB’s MBS plummeted. This is because investors can now purchase long-duration "risk-free" bonds from the Fed at a 2.5x higher yield.

Let's be clear, the issue wasn't that the Fed raised rates to a historically average level, it was that they were manipulating the bond market in 2021 with trillions of dollars of QE.

Over the last few years the Fed has basically done a pump and dump on the bond market, and SVB being a bank was basically forced by regulation to buy long-dated bonds for yield.

I've seen a lot of people speak critically of SVB and I get it, but I think people should take a minute to ask why the hell bonds were yielding such a low amount in 2021. I just wonder how much longer we're going to blame, banks, crypto investors, bond investors, equity investors, home buyers, etc for what's happening to the value of their assets. When central bankers make government bonds trade like meme stocks this is what happens. Perhaps if we didn't do that, SVB and many others wouldn't be in this position.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by highwaylights on Friday March 10, 2023 @03:50PM (#35100820)
Nah, the bank is responsible for their decisions.

They bought $80b of fixed-rate bonds at historically and artificially low interest rates in a time of massive QE. Even based on the information available at the time, this is not a surprising outcome at all.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by danielmarkbruce on Friday March 10, 2023 @03:55PM (#35100882)
And the $80 bill was about 40% of their assets. And their depositors are all businesses who will move the money out fast because it's not insured over 250k.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by disgruntledphd2 on Friday March 10, 2023 @05:02PM (#35101805)
Yeah, this is all very odd. What the hell happened there?

In retrospect, the Chief Risk Officer leaving and not being replaced immediately was a bad sign: https://fortune.com/2023/03/10/silicon-valley-bank-chief-ris...

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by danielmarkbruce on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:06PM (#35102545)
That's a good find...

100% speculation: the CRO told them loading up on long term bonds was crazy, and that they'd just have to eat lower earnings. The CEO/CFO disagreed, and the CRO didn't want to have any part of it. Hindsight is 20/20, but... this really was a disaster waiting to happen.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by james_barton on Saturday March 11, 2023 @06:42AM (#35107456)
Not completely sure about that:

"A risk officer typically anticipates and manages regulatory, operational, competitive or other risks faced by a firm."

That looks like _non-financial_ risks. If that was the role of the CRO at SVB, the risk for this event probably should have been with the CFO?

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by kortilla on Saturday March 11, 2023 @12:57PM (#35110793)
“Operational” at a bank includes financial risks.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by james_barton on Saturday March 11, 2023 @05:10PM (#35113308)
I know of at least one large European bank where it explicitly doesn't.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by abfan1127 on Friday March 10, 2023 @03:53PM (#35100855)
that doesn't excuse the Fed's behaviors.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by danielmarkbruce on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:09PM (#35101112)
It's easy to criticize the fed, but they did a pretty good job during COVID and they did a pretty good job during 2008.

The charge of "manipulating bond markets" is pretty absurd - their mandate is to influence inflation and employment via interest rates. Of course it has an impact on bond markets.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by yterdy on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:21PM (#35101253)
Not to let the banks off the hook, but

>They did a pretty good job during COVID

One word: "transitory".

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by danielmarkbruce on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:31PM (#35101381)
It was surprisingly accurate.... mom inflation has been reasonable for several months now
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by nervlord on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:57PM (#35101724)
That's.. Delusional. It's barely budged.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by danielmarkbruce on Friday March 10, 2023 @05:15PM (#35101955)
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cpi.pdf

Note all the months since July 2022. It's good to read the source material rather than hyperventilating news articles.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by anon20230311 on Saturday March 11, 2023 @11:37AM (#35109908)
I was skeptical that month-over-month CPI had come down to reasonable levels, but it indeed seems meaningfully lower and close to recent historical averages.

Mean MoM % change in CPI-U from January to preceding July, 2016-2023:

* 2016: 0.01

* 2017: 0.27

* 2018: 0.27

* 2019: 0.10

* 2020: 0.21

* 2021: 0.30

* 2022: 0.61

* 2023: 0.27

Raw monthly data: https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CUSR0000SA0&output_view=pct_...

I am eager to see Tuesday's numbers for February inflation.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by yterdy on Friday March 10, 2023 @05:12PM (#35101925)
By that metric, and it took quite a bit longer to get there than ideal. It's also still elevated historically and compared to FFR, all of which is a roundabout way of saying that inflation has and continues to destabilize the outlook. Stability historically comes after an n-month lag of the FFR and core inflation meeting, right? Well, banks are failing now, and 4Q24 is a ways off.

I just don't know if I'd call it a "pretty good job," is all. They were caught-off guard and didn't move quickly enough.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by danielmarkbruce on Friday March 10, 2023 @05:17PM (#35101978)
They are always caught off guard. Try predicting anything macro and see how well it goes to plan. Then try not moving too fast or too slow.

The idea that they aren't doing a good job because they aren't perfectly precise with their timing is silly.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by yterdy on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:42PM (#35102947)
The difficulty is somewhat artificial. Their statements give away the game, namely their obsession with a "soft landing." Translation: an undue focus on securities markets and saving entities who'd made bad investments, i.e., picking winners. They were late because they were trying to balance a factor that isn't part of their quasi-mandate (but that is important to politicians, and to the institutions that Fed officers revolving doored from). Without that factor, you see radical hikes in 2021 and QT not being undermined by waves hands vaguely. It hurts, but less than what's coming now.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by danielmarkbruce on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:57PM (#35103106)
The only entities they seem to worry about is banks. And banks going under is bad news for everyone, always has been. Being a lender of last resort to banks is explicitly part of their mandate.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by pishpash on Friday March 10, 2023 @09:36PM (#35104543)
They worry about banks because they are a bank. If it weren't for government oversight they'd be a private bank.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by yterdy on Sunday March 12, 2023 @04:20PM (#35125685)
>The only entities they seem to worry about is banks.

You'll have to support thay with something. Again, the language of their correspondence over the past few years says otherwise.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by chii on Friday March 10, 2023 @08:23PM (#35104013)
And it was. The prediction was that covid supply/demand constraints would resolve when covid problems clear themselves.

Unless, of course, you are expecting the Fed to predict the war in ukraine, the energy crisis, etc.

And in any case, people who take the Fed's predictions at face value, and base their financial positions on it, can only blame themselves when the Feds do something contrary (as they are always entitled to). These predictions aren't promises.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by throw0101c on Friday March 10, 2023 @10:02PM (#35104739)
> One word: "transitory".

It has been. We're barely at 1.5-2 years in length and it looks to be either stabilized and perhaps dropping.

A number of folks estimated that the COVID recovery stimulus would take about this long to work its way through the system, using Korean War spending as an analogue:

* https://www.piie.com/blogs/realtime-economic-issues-watch/in...

The fact that energy and food prices spiked due to geopolitical events threw a monkey wrench in the works temporarily, but now that those have stabilized, so has inflation.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by yterdy on Sunday March 12, 2023 @04:27PM (#35125785)
The magnitude matters, too. Stimulus did not constitute an annualized increase in average consumer purchasing power equivalent to the inflation we've seen. I imagine that wage inflation fills the difference, but of course, the stimulus is over and wage growth is not enough. So "transitory" is not an accurate characterization for most people looking at their finances; it has come to eat their purchasing ability, and stayed.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by pishpash on Friday March 10, 2023 @09:32PM (#35104510)
They did a terrible job after the Euro sovereign debt crisis passed, so let's say after 2014, and they did a terrible job starting mid-2021, after vaccines and opening up. Always too slow to raise rates and stop financial froth that was obvious to everyone.

The first half of stopping a panic is always easy if you're the Fed with the exorbitant privilege to print money with virtually no immediate ill effects. The second half is the hard part and they've failed 11 times out of 10.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by adam_arthur on Saturday March 11, 2023 @11:19AM (#35109645)
To say they did a good job during covid can only be determined through history… many would disagree.

They acted as aggressively as possible to remedy a short term problem, which just created longer term problems. Its easy to throw money at a problem and worry about the consequences later.

SVB wouldn’t have failed if the Fed hadn’t artificially suppressed rates to the extent they did, for example. And Id venture there’s a lot more to come on the economic front. Many assets became extremely overvalued which makes the larger downside on price more disruptive. Commercial real estate is a big one to watch in the coming years

If inflation remains entrenched we may require a GFC style hard landing to quench it.

The fed did head off an immediate disaster through suppressing the rapidly widened credit spreads, but everything after that will likely be remembered as a failure

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by reso on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:29PM (#35101352)
The fed wasn't buying bonds for lulz, they were doing it to carry out their primary function.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by freejazz on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:28PM (#35101331)
What's the fed's obligation to that bank that you are making this point?
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by eschaton on Saturday March 11, 2023 @12:36AM (#35105762)
Dollars to donuts they’re a “sound money” kook who wants the Federal Reserve not to be able to manipulate the money supply to achieve societal objectives like “low unemployment” and “inflation that closely tracks growth in economic activity and population” and “preventing a deflationary spiral because economic activity shut down due to a global pandemic” because all of that is interference with the Holy Free Market.

Because after all the purpose of society is to serve the market, not the other way around, right?

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by nerdponx on Friday March 10, 2023 @03:56PM (#35100902)
Two wrongs don't make a right!
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by SantalBlush on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:43PM (#35101524)
Whether or not the Fed's behaviors are excused is not the topic of conversation.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by NovemberWhiskey on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:19PM (#35101233)
>Let's be clear, the issue wasn't that the Fed raised rates to a historically average level, it was that they were manipulating the bond market in 2021 with trillions of dollars of QE.

One of the principle, statutory purposes of the Federal Reserve is to conduct monetary policy to achieve maximum employment and stable prices. That means it's the job of the Fed to manipulate interest rates.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by mattwad on Friday March 10, 2023 @05:04PM (#35101824)
Actually, they are sacrificing employment to stabilize prices: https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-.... The interest rate hikes are designed to cause unemployment, and it's not even working.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by pkulak on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:02PM (#35102506)
Well, yeah, their "dual mandate" is contradictory. You're not the first to notice, trust me. And that means that sometimes they have to sacrifice one for the other. When one is doing historically well, and the other not so great, it's probably not a hard choice.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by goodluckchuck on Saturday March 11, 2023 @12:04PM (#35110244)
You’re inferring good faith, which - when dealing with humans - is an unsupported assumption. You don’t have to be an economist to draw the connection between printing money and a rise in nominal prices (irrespective of the interest rates and lending).

The Fed knows that there is no real ongoing inflation. The devaluation of the dollar already occurred and the new price has to propagate through the market. Their actions have no effect on the cause or broader course of apparent inflation only on who “wins and loses.”

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by oarabbus_ on Saturday March 11, 2023 @03:09PM (#35112145)
>The Fed knows that there is no real ongoing inflation.

Can you cite any metric showing there is "no real ongoing inflation"? CPI, PPI, PCE, and other less-commonly used metrics all indicate ongoing inflation. It would be interesting to understand how you've arrived at the conclusion there isn't ongoing inflation.

>The devaluation of the dollar already occurred and the new price has to propagate through the market.

The DXY has been uptrending for nearly a decade, even more rapidly so since mid-2021.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by SecretDreams on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:18PM (#35103335)
They have a dual mandate. Pricing stability and employment. They're trying to trade one for another to achieve a better balance. Employment is far too hot right now.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by HDThoreaun on Saturday March 11, 2023 @01:16AM (#35105960)
It's a dual mandate because it's impossible to accomplish both. They have to decide which to focus on.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by maskil on Friday March 10, 2023 @05:08PM (#35101880)
Don't see how anyone could view the feds actions in the last few years and conclude that they had this as their mandate
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by notJim on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:34PM (#35102853)
> maximum employment and stable prices

It's a dual mandate. If I'm not mistaken, we recently reached pre-pandemic employment levels. There is no way we would have reached this point without low interest rates through the pandemic.

Other countries have the same inflation rate that we do, but with lower employment rates. Ours is a better position to be in.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by acomar on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:31PM (#35103471)
the economists at the fed think the only possible cause for inflation is demand pressure, forgetting the historical supply crunches that have led to inflation. wages are up and unemployment is down because production is still reeling from covid, especially as the largest generation in history retires. so amusingly, in their failed ploy to crush labor power, the feds have fucked the banks.

(this is not to excuse the greed of the bankers - this crisis is the purest essence of capitalism, it's inherent contradictions on full and gory display.)

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by actionablefiber on Friday March 10, 2023 @08:41PM (#35104167)
It is more like, demand is the only thing the Fed can control.

The Fed can’t end the invasion of Ukraine or cure avian flu or speed up cargo ships. They can raise rates and that’s about it.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by throw0101c on Friday March 10, 2023 @09:56PM (#35104696)
> the economists at the fed think the only possible cause for inflation is demand pressure, forgetting the historical supply crunches that have led to inflation.

No, the economists at the Fed do not think that. Or rather, they try to find out what is driving inflation in any given situation, like they did with this 2022 study:

> Inflation has remained at levels well above the Federal Reserve’s inflation goal of 2% for over a year. Separating the underlying data from the personal consumption expenditures price index into supply- versus demand-driven categories reveals that supply factors explain about half of the run-up in current inflation levels. Demand factors are responsible for about one-third, with the remainder resulting from ambiguous factors. While supply disruptions are widely expected to ease this year, this outcome is highly uncertain.

* https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economi...

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by kazen44 on Friday March 10, 2023 @05:14PM (#35101938)
mind you the alternave is far worse.

Having unstable prices for staple goods will lead to unrest very, very quickly, which in term results in a downturn in the econonmy, which in term leads to even more unstable prices and thus more unrest.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by grey-area on Saturday March 11, 2023 @07:22AM (#35107699)
Sure it is their job to set interest rates. It is far less clear that it is their job to buy government and corporate debt, and allow the government to issue unprecedented amounts if debt. Or to attempt to completely erase the business cycle.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by NovemberWhiskey on Saturday March 11, 2023 @12:22PM (#35110436)
That would be the Fed pursuing the "maintain the stability of financial markets and contain their systemic risks" part of its statutory purpose.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by grey-area on Saturday March 11, 2023 @02:37PM (#35111834)
From current evidence, their efforts seem to have had the opposite effect. Please try again to justify post-hoc these actions which the fed has never before undertaken (qe and zirp and even buying corp bonds).
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by oblio on Saturday March 11, 2023 @06:09PM (#35113750)
Covid would have forced a much harder reset, probably in 2021.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by grey-area on Saturday March 11, 2023 @06:27PM (#35113890)
Covid came at the end of a decade of QE. They tried QT in 2019 before Covid hit and had to give up.

QE and ZIRP is the original sin here which created the dilemma the fed now faces - hard inflation or hard recession. They didn’t solve the GFC or Covid, they just postponed the impact and made it far worse.

I have absolutely no objection to counter-cyclical monetary policy but the monetary policy has become the cycle.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by KirillPanov on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:28PM (#35101334)
> I just wonder how much longer we're going to blame crypto

HN will blame crypto for everything, for ever. Because it's trendy to do that.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by nvr219 on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:48PM (#35101575)
And because crypto is garbage.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by JoeJonathan on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:56PM (#35101701)
Or because it’s actually a huge scam.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by Gravey on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:51PM (#35103689)
“Crypto” is a technology that is functional and has proven utility. Those using it as a tool to skirt regulations, defraud others, or to commit outright theft are the scammers. I would agree that as a concept it is generally overhyped, usually by those who seek to profit from doing so. But I think it’s important to not conflate the unscrupulous gold miners looking to get rich quick with the utility of the precious metal itself.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by HyperSane on Friday March 10, 2023 @10:09PM (#35104785)
bitcoin's main utility seems to be using an utterly absurd amount of joules per transaction.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by illiarian on Saturday March 11, 2023 @03:21AM (#35106512)
> and has proven utility.

It hasn't.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by concordDance on Saturday March 11, 2023 @05:08AM (#35107011)
The ability to have assets that can't be frozen by a bank or government beaurocratic fuckup is utility.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by nvr219 on Saturday March 11, 2023 @03:27PM (#35112345)
Not really because the assets can totally be frozen by the exchange. The people who have money in crypto that disappears don't care if that was due to a government action or due to whomever is in charge of enough servers.
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by darkerside on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:30PM (#35101360)
Is there a reason they couldn't have just purchased shorter term bonds and securities instead?
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by muzz on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:34PM (#35101423)
Greed. Those were yielding close to zero and they wanted the 1.x%
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by polygamous_bat on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:45PM (#35101546)
It's an interesting reward mechanic for the bankers, "heads I walk home with big bonuses, tails I go home with a big severance and our customers get screwed".
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by muzz on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:11PM (#35102598)
This is the essence of the moral hazard created by the bank bailouts in 2008
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by sam345 on Friday March 10, 2023 @10:43PM (#35105015)
The yield has been inverted so short-term has been paying just as much or more than the long-term depending upon which securities you're looking at. 30 to 90 day treasuries have been yielding over 4%
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by muzz on Saturday March 11, 2023 @10:25PM (#35116214)
Yes-- if they kept that cash until now they would be sitting pretty
Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by roguecoder on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:30PM (#35101365)
... housing prices have continued to rise at wildly unsustainable rates, leading to record homelessness. Which is the exact opposite of what happened with the crypto market, where the Ponzi scheme collapsed.

When the assets haven't even moved in the same direction, I don't know how you are going to blame federal policy to counteracted the recessionary impact of covid for moving them. Whereas the fed has caused significant damage & also been ineffective at fighting the current supply-side inflation caused by Russia's war of aggression.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by harambae on Friday March 10, 2023 @05:18PM (#35101994)
There's always degrees of speculation that are going to vary - cryptocurrencies, tech stocks, consumer staple stocks, gold, commodities, real estate, etc.

No one expects that real estate will skyrocket and tank like shitcoins (even in 2008, the residential real estate market didn't bottom out until 2012). But that doesn't mean that Federal Reserve policy has been good.

I'd highly recommend the book (or audiobook) "The Lords of Easy Money: How the Federal Reserve Broke the American Economy" for anyone who is interested in a historical summary of the FOMC.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by Aeolun on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:25PM (#35102754)
> When central bankers make government bonds trade like meme stocks this is what happens

That’s what happens when people buy meme stock. I think the failure of the goverment and the bank are unrelated here.

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by nipponese on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:31PM (#35102819)
> SVB being a bank was basically forced by regulation to buy long-dated bonds for yield.

Is this true?

Re:FDIC Takes over Silicon Valley Bank by chii on Friday March 10, 2023 @08:25PM (#35104033)
nope, there's no mandate to buy for yield - they do it to make money.