News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by jackson1442 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:50PM (#34599847)
You can have all this (and more!) in cities as well. Lived in Seattle for a bit and my apartment had several neighborhoods of single-family homes within a couple blocks: each with mature trees, yards, and low traffic streets. Sure, the yard maybe isn't as massive as you can get in a suburb, but there's still plenty of space (and far more public parks).

Because they were so close to dense housing, they also had the added benefits of public transit and being walking distance to several grocery stores. Much better than suburbia in my opinion.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by yamtaddle on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:16PM (#34600307)
Old narrow-street, maybe an alley in the back, grid-layout suburbs with the odd block corner zoned commercial and all-neighborhood-streets routes to all kinds of businesses and parks and libraries and such are a whole different beast from the twisty-road car-dependent mazes of post-70s suburbia. And they're so much damn nicer. Too bad no-one builds them anymore.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by crooked-v on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:38PM (#34600668)
Most cities have zoning that doesn't allow that kind of thing.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by twiddling on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:35PM (#34600613)
problem isn't zoning but design regulations. A lot of street design is dictated by being able to fire engine equipment in and turned around. Hence no new alleys are being built.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by yamtaddle on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:46PM (#34600797)
I don't even mean that narrow. Just not, like, 4ish cars wide. More like 3 or 2.5 (if one-way).
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by ultrarunner on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:12PM (#34601206)
The "residential" road that I live on is (and most in the area are) 45 ft wide, with 2.5' sidewalks. The Hummer H1 is an incredible 7.2 feet wide, meaning you could fit six full-size hummers side-by-side down this road. Add in the mandatory front 30ft setback and you have a sight line that is around 110 feet wide.

People are expected to go up to 30 mph here. They don't.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by alistairSH on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:28PM (#34601462)
We could build fire equipment to fit narrower streets.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by zip1234 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @06:53PM (#34604146)
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by alistairSH on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @07:05PM (#34604252)
Yeah, just not used in the US. All we have is giant custom things that cost a fortune.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by c0nsumer on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @05:45PM (#34603432)
We moved from the latter to the former about a year ago, and it's SO MUCH BETTER. The low traffic residential grid roads make great walking and cycling (for quite long distances) and the closer proximity to neighbors seems to result in friendlier people. I'm amazed at what a different feeling it is compared to our old McMansion/Condo stuff where people kept to their boxes and didn't seem to know how to politely interact.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by zzzeek on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:38PM (#34600657)
I dont like noise, light pollution, or crowds. I'd like nighttime to be silent and pitch dark, and the daytime to be mostly silent as well.

I go on trips and need to be able to load lots of stuff in and out of "my" or "a" car without living in terror of all of my stuff getting stolen while I'm inside.

Where should I live?

Note: I lived in three different boroughs of NYC for 25 years

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by bcrosby95 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:54PM (#34600943)
That's nice. Many of us don't want that, but have it forced upon us considering something like 90% of all residential zoning in the USA is R1 zoning.

There will be demand for neighborhoods you want and they will exist but it won't necessarily be in the middle of major population centers like it is now.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by zzzeek on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:56PM (#34600976)
> 90% of all residential zoning in the USA is R1

well if that's based on land area that's not a very informative number. you'd want to do it by population.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by jholman on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @09:49PM (#34605693)
What? No, doing it by population is a bad approach.

Land is the resource you're dividing up. The question is how much of the divided-up land is allocated to an (allegedly) niche usage.

Doing it by population is like saying "almost no one is a billionaire, almost everyone is basically poor and equally-poor, so there can't possibly be a wealth inequality problem". (I'm not saying there is/isn't a wealth inequality problem, I'm only saying that's a dud argument.)

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by jackson1442 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:06PM (#34601117)
Sounds like the country is the place for you, I experienced all of that in a suburb.

The "living in terror" part sounds like you could use some work on mindfulness though.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by zzzeek on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:21PM (#34601343)
thanks for the patronizing, very mindful! not had your stuff stolen then , I gather ?
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by JAlexoid on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @10:58AM (#34612309)
I have been robbed at knifepoint, intentionally kicked off my bike by a motorbike, pickpocketed and cash taken from the ATM(with a ruse)... All traumatic events that haunt me to this day.

And yet, I still can say that a city is still one of the safest places to be.

Your experience isn't invalid, it's just how it impacts everyone. The outcome of your and mine experiences are subjective, and people who go through them(you and me both) should stop pretending that our experiences are universal.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by joebob42 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:16PM (#34602257)
I live in a decently "nice" part of Seattle. Constantly concerned stuff will get stolen. Have had car broken in to more than once. "Terror" might be overstating if, but the level of property crime is objectively harming my day-to-day experience.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by zachthewf on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @05:08PM (#34602969)
That is less an inherent property of density and more a property of Seattle's moronic lack of petty crime enforcement.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by omegaworks on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @05:50PM (#34603482)
We're seeing a level of wealth inequality now that rivals the level seen in the Gilded Age. "Petty crime enforcement" won't do anything but place more of your neighbors in harm's way. An oppressively policed neighborhood does not make the neighborhood safer.

The child poverty rate was halved under an emergency declaration in 2020. That policy was allowed to expire in 2022[1] and that, along with unchecked inflation and labor-averse federal monetary policy, is naturally producing misery and desperation.

1. https://www.povertycenter.columbia.edu/news-internal/monthly...

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by joebob42 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @06:06PM (#34603668)
Yeah, sorry, Im not trying to make a claim as to the cause here, just agreeing that this really does exist and really does make life way shittier in some very major cities.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by veec_cas_tant on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @05:16PM (#34603072)
Just curious: do you believe this a Seattle problem, a United States problem, or an urban problem?
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by joebob42 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @06:04PM (#34603650)
I don't know. I lived in a wealthy suburb outside San Diego and did not experience this problem (I used to leave my keys in my car with the car unlocked, which was obviously moronic but never caused me any problems), and I lived briefly in SF where it was substantially worse.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by jwestbury on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @05:05AM (#34608523)
Having lived, in the past five years, in Seattle, in a Seattle exurb, in a small city well north of Seattle (Bellingham), and now in London, I can say that this is just a problem -- not a Seattle problem, and urban problem, or a US problem. We had people prowling our secure parking garage in my Seattle condo building; my exurb house was in a development where summer days brought the smell of cow manure in through the open windows, but barely a week went by without cars being prowled; Bellingham is a college town and has had property crime issues for decades; and obviously London has loads of thefts and robberies, with a recent trend being masked robbers on motorcycles and scooters snatching phones from people's hands on the streets.

Everybody thinks this is a local problem, but the reality is that, in developed nations, property crime is quite strongly correlated with wealth inequality[1], which has been growing in most of the western world for the past couple of decades.

1. https://equalitytrust.org.uk/crime#:~:text=The%20link%20betw....

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by mikestew on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @06:40PM (#34604028)
If we're throwing out anecdata, I've experienced none of that in 22 years of living in the Seattle suburb of Redmond. We've never had a package stolen from our doorstep. No one breaks into our car (and we have multiple vehicles in the driveway). We did have one little shit steal a bunch of mail a few years ago, and locking mailboxes fixed that. There's homeless folks I only know about because I run the local trails, but they are otherwise invisible AFAICT.

And this, despite the Redmond PD apparently going on strike the last few years (when's the last time you saw a RPD car north of 85th St., fellow Redmondites?).

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by CalRobert on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:19PM (#34601325)
Virtually anywhere in the entire country?
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by mypalmike on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:33PM (#34601533)
Most single family homes in neighborhoods of major cities are like this, provided your home is one of the 90+% that is not on a major road.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by scythe on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:37PM (#34601603)
>I go on trips and need to be able to load lots of stuff in and out of "my" or "a" car without living in terror of all of my stuff getting stolen while I'm inside.

This is not a problem in cities in Asia. It was not a problem before the '60s. It is still not a problem in the dense downtowns of a few small American cities that have avoided the modern homelessness crisis. It is a specifically recent American major city phenomenon that nobody wants to accept as the norm.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by zzzeek on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:00PM (#34602015)
people with homes steal things they see available as well. even people who aren't poor steal things, either just for "fun" or because they are opportunistic and trying to just amass more wealth. laptops, cars etc. are not stolen by homeless people, more like professional thieves. I've seen a lot of things stolen, my own and that of close family members. Crowded places have more theft, facilitated by there just being lots of people around and also that it's the norm for everyone to be completely anonymous of everyone else. Have not been to Asia but you certainly will get your stuff stolen in European cities as well (have had that happen also in Dublin for example, extremely traumatizing).
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by tormeh on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:43PM (#34602665)
> extremely traumatizing

Words have meaning, and "extremely traumatizing" should be reserved for slightly more damaging things than getting ready to leave the restaurant and realizing your phone is gone. I realize word inflation is a battle that is lost every day, but it's still annoying. See what I did there? I didn't say that word inflation is extremely enraging or plunges me into a mental breakdown. It's just annoying.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by zzzeek on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @06:55PM (#34604171)
how do you know I wasnt robbed at gunpoint? or am phobic of travel and being without a passport etc. had me stranded / without food / etc? make an attempt at seeing other people's existence?
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by Larrikin on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:44PM (#34601736)
Sounds like you're describing a farm
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by yamtaddle on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @05:56PM (#34603547)
... in Winter.

Warm months can get noisy. Especially the god-damned locusts, but there are crickets and all kinds of things at night, even when those are dormant. Coyotes—those even, and perhaps especially, in Winter, but at least they're not so unpleasant to listen to unless your dogs are out or you forgot to put the fowl in for the night. Seemingly-endless Canada geese flocks low overhead, honking from horizon to horizon. God help you if you're near water. Frogs. Ugh. Frogs.

But, not so much neighbors' lawnmowers, or cars. Or car horns. Or people yelling. Or anyone else's music. That is nice. And man are the Winters peaceful.

Dust from gravel roads (you have no idea how much if you've not experienced it—dust every surface at 9am, can write in the new dust on the kitchen table by 4pm, on a bad day when the wind's wrong and it's dry), "snow" from combines and various ag processing plants (pretty sure this stuff's terrible on your lungs, but at least it's not all the time and only in some places). That shit smell for a few days when the next farmer over spreads manure. Your hour-plus drive (each way) every two to four weeks for your "big shopping" (and they say cities have food deserts! LOL—and if you think there aren't rural folks so damn poor they have trouble keeping a car running and need tons of help just to get groceries... well, there are, and lots of them) and needing to have a deep freeze or two and maybe even two refrigerators depending on how big your family is. Having to drive that far, too, if your kid needs clothes or shoes and the limited selection at the tractor & feed won't cut it. Forget walking anywhere that ain't your own land.

Got its own challenges. But, sometimes, it is very, very quiet.

[EDIT] Oh, and gunshots! Pretty often, mostly far off, varies a little depending on what your neighbors are like, but common enough I think it's fair to call that a normal part of the rural soundscape.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by toast0 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:58PM (#34601971)
> Where should I live?

If you just want less human noise, somewhere with a large lot. On my 9 acre lot I can still hear human noise, but usually only big things, which tends to be daytime, and not a lot of it. Oh, and backyard roosters; they're everywhere around here, but only noisy when the sun is up. Vehicle noises carry a long way when people have more horsepower than brains, though; gunshots and fireworks too. Not sure how to avoid those noises. I don't get a lot of artificial light from the neighbors, but there's some; more forest or a larger lot would help.

On the other hand, there's a lot of noise from local wildlife, and wind and rain and hail and other natural phenomenon that creates noise. And sometimes the moon is pretty bright at night. I guess you could live somewhere with caves and avoid some of that, but critters are everywhere.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by troupe on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @07:17PM (#34604369)
If you throw a dart at a US map it will probably land on a place like what you described. It isn't hard to find a house where you literally cannot see your neighbors.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by rgmerk on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @08:39PM (#34605164)
A small town in Iceland (which is pretty much all of them except Reykjavik) would do the trick.

But then you have a crappy range of very expensive food at the local supermarket, pretty much everything else you have to order in or pick up from Reykjavik (or abroad), if you want to see live music your choice is “Ja Ja Ding Dong” at the (only) pub one night a week or (again) going to Reykjavik. Want to see the latest musical (or a Grand Slam tennis tournament, or a million other events that are on all the time in NYC) live? Hop on an international flight. And everybody in the street will know pretty much everything you do.

But the mountains are stunningly beautiful, the crime rate is almost zero and you can drive your Super Jeep around to your heart’s content.

I get the desire for solitude but it comes with tradeoffs.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by johny115 on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @04:24AM (#34608281)
Any smaller city in Europe lol. With a flat facing the inside of house block (not the street). If you want it to be dead silent and truly pitch dark, then northern Europe (Sweden, Norway, Finland, Estonia).
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by JAlexoid on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @10:37AM (#34611968)
Live in a rural area. Move to Adirondacks, you'll have to drive everywhere - but there's little to no noise and so little light pollution, that you can see the Milky Way.

We moved from Williamsburg to Cornwall(NY). We live in a rural area and there's a tonne of noise(interstate traffic is audible from 5+ miles away) and light pollution(Hudson Valley light pollution is high).

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by hcurtiss on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:59PM (#34600000)
But I do think that's a matter of opinion, and totally unrelated to prejudice.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by brundolf on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:12PM (#34600235)
Having lived in Texas my whole life this idea was mostly foreign to me, but last year I visited Brooklyn and had my eyes opened
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by steveklabnik on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:15PM (#34600280)
... and I moved to Texas from Brooklyn, and I can assure you, longer term residents than me are still finding it foreign. That's slowly changing...
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by jtbayly on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:05PM (#34600106)
I mean, you’re basically saying that you can have suburbia in the city?

If lots of people want it, the price will skyrocket, so then somebody will buy some land just outside the city and build suburbia there so more people can afford it.

Rinse and repeat.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by rootusrootus on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:45PM (#34600780)
> Much better than suburbia in my opinion.

I think a lot of people just assume that the only kind of suburbia that exists is endless tract housing as far as the eye can see. I'm absolutely positive that does happen, but I've never lived in a suburban neighborhood that fit such a description. We have stores. We have business parks here and there. Heck, we even have public transit.

This is probably why there is such a dichotomy between those who hate suburbia, and those who love it. Different experiences piggybacking on the same terminology.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by chrisfinazzo on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:28PM (#34601467)
If you find your way to my other comment ("suburban sprawl") this is largely what it looked like to me when I visited my brother. The developments aren't very large and there is roughly nothing around them.

Contrast to NJ, where the NYC suburbs extend way outside Midtown and the city limits.

As a result, it is very rare to feel like you are in the middle of nowhere.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by runarberg on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:12PM (#34601209)
I don’t think parent was denying that, or at least I don’t get a sense of this dichotomy in the text. As someone that lives on Vashon island (what some consider a suburb of Seattle; but I actually consider rural King County), I got the sense that suburbia here was specifically directed at the endless tract of housing one (so like East Bellevue, Kent, or large parts of Kirkland), but not actual small towns around the main city (like Bothel, Lynnwood, Kirkland proper, or—well—Vashon) or even other dense urban areas like Burien or Redmond.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by jayd16 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:35PM (#34601573)
Those single family homes are the exact plots that people look to as examples of NIMBY homeowners standing in the way of affordable housing.