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Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by jvanderbot on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:17AM (#34503817)
That's wrong. It's poetic, but incorrect. These tools are about as good as a non specialist with time to undertake some bullshitting.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by paulgb on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:28AM (#34503950)
> These tools are about as good as a non specialist with time to undertake some bullshitting.

You’re not wrong, but AI being passably good at bullshitting (while mostly keeping a rhyme/meter) is still mindblowing to me.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by jvanderbot on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:36AM (#34504061)
It's an amazing accomplishment technically, and that deserves to be emphasized, but it is still not producing reliable outputs.

Subjectively incredible; objectively flawed.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by rpdillon on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:15AM (#34504572)
What does produce reliable outputs?
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by xeromal on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:59AM (#34505261)
Humans?
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by rpdillon on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @12:05PM (#34506468)
Humans, in my experience, have even more reasons to be flawed than the AI. Yes, the AI can be incorrect, but humans can be misled in what they believe the same way, and have the added problems of ego and misaligned incentives. Heck, in this very thread we have one human calling out another for being incorrect about whether or not an AI was correct. Locating sources of reliable truth is an unsolved problem AFAIK.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by anigbrowl on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @01:51PM (#34508171)
lol no. LLMs get things wrong, but they don't lose their shit when you point it out. I find it pleasant rather than frustrating to work on problems with one; the shortcoming for me as a sort of sort of conditioned passivity that arises out of its orientation to search its own knowledge for correct answers rather than asking questions.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by kevinwang on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:30AM (#34503984)
I agree that the output is often wrong despite looking right, but in this instance I don't see anything wrong in this example.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by jvanderbot on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:37AM (#34504077)
Dijkstra's cannot be used as generally as described. A-star can potentially be more general, but that's highly dependent on heuristic. Dinkstras is a-star with a "min weight on shortest path first" heuristic. Because a star doesn't expand shortest paths first necessarily, it cannot necessarily find the shortest path to any node except the prescribed endpoint. Dijkstra's will find all shortest paths with cost less than the path to the endpoint, and that's helpful sometimes.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by kevinwang on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:07AM (#34504467)
I actually think the robot's poetic take matches my thinking more closely than this description

Edit:

I guess in this description dijkstras is more specific, in that dijkstras is the specific instance of A* with a zero heuristic.

But I think what HAL over here was saying is that you can use dijkstras in a superset of scenarios in which you can use (non-trivial) A*, so in that sense dijkstras is more general than A*, so it's not wrong.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by lqet on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:09AM (#34504476)
What is your definition of "general" here? The classic shortest path problem (which the psalm addresses) is described as finding the shortest path between two nodes, and given non-negative edge weights, Dijkstra's algorithm is perfectly general here. It will find such a shortest path in any graph, no further restrictions.

For A*, everything depends on the heuristic, as you said. If h(v) = 0, A* is equivalent to Dijkstra's algorithm, so potentially, it can be as general. But the wrong heuristic (inadmissible, inconsistent) will lead to wrong results, and so calling it a "specialized" tool is correct. The heuristic gives you a specialized version of Dijkstra's algorithm which is faster on specific graphs.

> Dinkstras is a-star with a "min weight on shortest path first" heuristic.

I am not quite sure what you mean here. Dijkstra's algorithm is A* with no heuristic. I am not sure how a "shortest path first" heuristic would look like - do you mean that Dijkstra's algorithm chooses the node to expand next based on its shortest-path cost to the target t? Even if you would construct such a heuristic h(v) = c(v, t) by explicitly calculating c(v, t) each time, this is not what Dijkstra does, as it would basically be a perfect heuristic - you would then only visit nodes on the shortest path.

If you meant that Dijkstra's algorithm is A* with a "neighboring node with shortest path from start node first" heuristic, that's also not strictly true, because expanding the nearest node first is already built-in to A*. A* does not chose the next node v with the smallest h(v), but with the smallest g(v) + h(v), where g(v) is the shortest path cost from the source node to v.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by jvanderbot on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:24AM (#34504696)
> Dijkstra's algorithm is a general one, That can be used in any case,

I take issue with this statement. "any case" implies it's more general than A star, which is not true, it's a specialization of A star with (ok you win) h(v) set to nothing. It necessarily cannot solve as many problems as a star.

And Dijkstra's won't work in "any case" at all, esp graphs with negative edge weights.

The explanation struck me as glossing over too much, to the point of being misleading. Perhaps I'm being too pedantic, fine, but a more enlightened comparison would read more like our discussion than what was given.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by endorphinbomber on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:52AM (#34505142)
You realize it had the constraints of a poem, and needed to take some liberty with description there?
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by jvanderbot on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @11:36AM (#34505968)
Sure sure. I'm being pedantic. But replacing two sentences would fix it.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by twic on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @12:49PM (#34507178)
> It necessarily cannot solve as many problems as a star.

Could you give an example of a positive-weight shortest path problem with A* can solve, but Dijkstra's algorithm cannot? I do not believe there is such a thing. Or did you mean something else?

> And Dijkstra's won't work in "any case" at all, esp graphs with negative edge weights.

A* won't solve those either.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by kragen on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @01:28PM (#34507777)
i would rather say that a* is an optimization of dijkstra's algorithm

they both solve the single-pair shortest-path problem in digraphs with nonnegative arc weights

a* which explores nodes in a different, better order thank dijkstra's algorithm, but can only be applied in cases where you can compute an admissible heuristic

that makes it less general than dijkstra's algorithm, which works to find shortest paths in any digraph with nonnegative arc weights, not just the ones where an admissible heuristic can be computed

any problem you can solve with a* can be solved with dijkstra's algorithm (usually more slowly) but the converse is not true

now, in a sense, a* with an inadmissible heuristic such as h(v)≡0 is 'more general' in the sense that it can emulate dijkstra's algorithm and also do other things; you could say that a* is a class of algorithms of which dijkstra's algorithm is one

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by JackFr on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:46AM (#34505038)
> I don't see anything wrong in this example

It's not in the style of a psalm.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by kevinwang on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @01:09AM (#34514966)
Ah, interesting. I didn't notice that. I have noticed that chatgpt is really impressive at doing rhyming poems/songs, and many of its generated poems sound similar to each other. I also don't remember raw gpt-3 being so good at poems.

So I wonder if there was substantial fine-tuning for chatgpt specifically to reward it to generate poems, in a particular style.

And here, it's "over indexing" on that and still generating poems in that familiar style

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by pxue on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:30AM (#34503978)
"confidently wrong"

That's chatgpt right now. To get it to confidently right will take years and years more

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by Rastonbury on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:10AM (#34504480)
I saw dallE and GPT-2 demos and though 'oh pretty cool' about a year later we've got stable diffusion that can run on phones and ChatGPT which can remember context. I thought these things would be 3-5 years out or more. The speed of development is so quick, I think confidently right LLM is around the corner

In less than a decade, I believe front line support chat support jobs and even graphic artist jobs will be made obselete

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by causi on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:26AM (#34504726)
In less than a decade, I believe front line support chat support jobs and even graphic artist jobs will be made obselete

We can finally get the eighty hour long book-accurate Lord of the Rings adaptation we deserve.

But seriously, I can't wait to feed a novel into one of these things and get a comic book version in return.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by ilaksh on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @12:30PM (#34506891)
The latest models, with the right setup, can already substitute for many (not all) tasks in knowledge jobs such as graphic design, support chat, even programming. I feel like we may be looking at less than 3 or 4 years for a lot of jobs to be mostly obsolete. Or at least, the traditional version of those jobs.

It's already at the point where you start expecting any knowledge worker to be significantly more productive by leveraging these tools.

It's hard to imagine that it will be more than five years before AI tools are available that can handle almost all tasks in these types of jobs.

For example, on my website aidev.codes I just added preliminary knowledgebase support. It can reference the knowledgebase this to write code. I would say that with the code-davinci-002 model at least it seems about at the level of a junior software engineer already since it's pretty effective with close supervision by a senior peogrammer, except for the fact that it cannot interpret visual information.

Knowledgebases/embedding search can also be used right now with these models for answering support questions. The only thing holding it back from very very wide scale adoption is the problem of making up information. There are already solutions in progress for this. It's unlikely that will take more than a few years to roll out and replace the current generation of models. Google and Microsoft will probably roll out their internet-scale chat search interfaces this year even if they can't fully mitigate the hallucination problem immediately.

I would guess more like 2-3 years for many knowledge-based jobs. If you want employment/contracts you will need to be very good at leveraging AI, or people will just use the AIs instead.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by dennis_jeeves1 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:58AM (#34505241)
>"confidently wrong"

Very human I must say.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by browningstreet on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:59AM (#34505260)
The wall of content and interactive exchanges that will fill the internet from chatgpt generated things will become harder and harder to wade through or evade.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by mensetmanusman on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:44AM (#34504171)
It is passing medical exams and will be used to help diagnose issues with similar reliability as humans.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by nradov on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:06AM (#34504445)
That can only be possible in a limited set of cases where the inputs necessary to make a diagnosis are all present in the patient chart. Human clinicians rely on other inputs to make most diagnoses including visually looking at the patient from multiple angles, asking them questions, manipulating and feeling the patient's body, listening (with or without stethoscope), and even smell. We are a long way from the robotics and sensor integration technology necessary to automate those steps in the diagnostic process.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by tootie on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @01:59PM (#34508296)
We've been down the AI diagnosis path before and even a purpose-built system failed to live up. I think that GPT, much like Tesla autopilot, is going to spend a very long time ironing out it's "last mile" before anyone will trust it. The tendency for AI to be spectacularly wrong when it fails to grasp context is still pretty prevalent.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by markus_zhang on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @06:12PM (#34511990)
Just curious is it a political issue (risky and who to sue) or a technical issue (ai has far worse judgement)?
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by tootie on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @07:03PM (#34512435)
Mostly that it faired poorly against human doctors. Real-world medical data is too messy to feed into a machine.

https://www.theregister.com/2022/01/31/machine_learning_the_...

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by markus_zhang on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @07:40PM (#34512744)
Thanks! I wonder what is the most advanced automatic technique right now. I also think it's difficult to replace nurses -- even though basic nurse work is even easier comparing to a family doctor who needs to diagnose. I figure the reason is that to replace nurse we need a lot of automatic hardware, which needs a lot of investment, unlike ChatGPT which can really replace a service agent given enough training because it doesn't involve hardware.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by tootie on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:51PM (#34513783)
We have a lot. But it's really the same story that we see with software. The more sophisticated the software you grab off the shelf the more that's expected from a single worker. Modern doctor's offices are overloaded with gadgets. Most are using automatic blood pressure cuffs, digital pulse ox and all sorts of machines to test for things that used to be untestable. The need for nurses and techs to operate them all only increases.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by krona on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:47AM (#34504200)
I think it captured the essential difference between the two algorithms, i.e. the heuristic, so I don't understand how this is 'bullshit'.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by joaogui1 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @05:18PM (#34511369)
A* is more general than Dijkstra, as Dijkstra ia A* with the heuristic set to 0. Also it's not in the style of a psalm
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by vijayr02 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:02AM (#34504394)
So perfectly suited for a management role? :)
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by treis on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:42AM (#34504960)
They blocked people from generating performance reviews so at least some were trying.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by mjhay on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:21AM (#34504663)
I did read somewhere that in some tests, ChatGPT-generated MBA papers got better grades than average MBA students.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by dennis_jeeves1 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:54AM (#34505166)
Well suited for more most walks of life actually where BS reigns supreme :)
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by lqet on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:18AM (#34504618)
> These tools are about as good as a non specialist with time to undertake some bullshitting.

Even if you are right, you still acknowledge that ChatGPT is on the level of a non-specialist bullshitting human you can have a meaningful conversation with. This alone would be enough to freak me out. If you would've told me that this is possible 10 years ago I would've called you crazy.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by jvanderbot on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @11:40AM (#34506030)
Subjectively incredible; objectively questionable.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by throwaway675309 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @07:34PM (#34512704)
I know a lot of people are vividly impressed by this but to me "writing in the style of" (Victorian sonnets, poems, hip hop lyrics) is the equivalent of transfer learning and feels more like a cheap parlor trick.

While I wont deny that it has impressive summarization abilities in terms of making excellent Q&A if you're willing to vet the information, I wouldn't exactly say that chatGPT is capable of meaningful conversation. It has great powers of recollection but its capacitive powers to produce new interesting information feels highly formulaic.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by hammyhavoc on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @08:19PM (#34513070)
I laughed when I read someone call its output "meaningful".
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by HideousKojima on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:27AM (#34504742)
Also psalms don't rhyme, even in the original Hebrew. Also even if it is supposed to be a poem with rhyme and meter, ChatGPT's poem doesn't have correct meter.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by danielvf on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:44AM (#34505002)
Agreeing with you. Psalms typically employ parallelism not rhyming. Two examples:

  The sun will not harm you by day,
      nor the moon by night.
and

  My life is consumed by anguish
    and my years by groaning;
  my strength fails because of my affliction,[b]
    and my bones grow weak.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by magarnicle on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @06:53PM (#34512366)
You have to tell it explicitly the correct number of syllables in a haiku, otherwise it gets it wrong.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by Der_Einzige on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @08:33PM (#34513197)
I wrote a whole paper on how to fix this in LLMs!

https://paperswithcode.com/paper/most-language-models-can-be...

Gwern cited it too!

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by dennis_jeeves1 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:51AM (#34505134)
'poetic': you have described it accurately. I fail to see what the hullabaloo is all about. Call me jaded.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by hammyhavoc on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @08:21PM (#34513101)
I'll call you refreshingly grounded.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by soperj on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @11:05AM (#34505372)
This is my exact problem with ChatGTP, it looks great when you don't know what it's talking about, but as soon as you do, it looks foolishly over-confident in it's answers which are very clearly wrong.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by krsw on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @11:37AM (#34505979)
Not much worse than a number of people I've talked with, to be honest.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by twic on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @12:47PM (#34507145)
Ha ha only serious - for me, the most profound thing about ChatGPT and friends is that they show how much of human behaviour is not actually intelligent in some deep sense.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by CamperBob2 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @01:16PM (#34507573)
Exactly. It doesn't just share our abilities, it shares our flaws, which is actually more interesting and more disturbing.

It's not a crystal ball, it's a mirror.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by iliane5 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @02:29PM (#34508853)
The fact that a "dumb", generative model that is simply predicting the next token when given a prompt can talk so well, perform complex tasks and interact with humans in such a convincing manner is pretty fascinating.

There is obviously more to human intelligence than text based conversation but it is pretty humbling that such an aspect of ourselves can be replicated and be so convincing at such an early stage and perform better than some humans even when it makes stuff up: toddlers can't talk, kids are smarter but don't have the technical knowledge, most adults only have a few specific areas of expertise, etc.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by Keyframe on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @11:14AM (#34505519)
which are very clearly wrong

but not always; And that's what makes it scary. You know people will use it and trusting it.

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by jerry1979 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @12:16PM (#34506653)
I believe the data gets trained by human rankers, and it should therefore regress to their mean. That said, if they train it to seek approval, I suppose we could teach it like any other student.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by anigbrowl on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @01:38PM (#34507964)
I don't like OpenAI's implementation defaults that much. But the thing is you can have a conversation with an LLM about bullshitting, explore the reasons why it's undesirable and inferior to sincere conversation, and then leverage those points of agreement to modify conversational behavior, at least within the scope of that conversation.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by yen223 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @02:40PM (#34509039)
This is my main problem with HN, funnily enough.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by jredwards on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @05:03PM (#34511181)
As long as you're armed with that information, though, it makes getting to an 80% solution (to many things) almost effortless.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by CamperBob2 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @01:13PM (#34507545)
Which if you haven't noticed is good enough to land a seat in the United States Congress.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by kragen on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @01:18PM (#34507619)
what's incorrect about it

as far as i can tell it seems perfectly correct but admittedly my understanding of a* search is limited to messing with amit's visualizations of it

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by PebblesRox on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @02:16PM (#34508619)
It's also not Psalm-like! The Psalms don't rhyme (even in the original Hebrew). What they do have is a parallel structure where each idea is repeated in slightly different words.

This is just generic poetry with a sprinkling of "ye's."

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by hammyhavoc on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @08:20PM (#34513079)
Indeed, I had to laugh.
Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by Der_Einzige on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @08:33PM (#34513185)
Not even always poetic either

Notice that it sometimes struggles to rhyme?

Re:Ask HN: What is the weirdest or most surreal (recent) tec... by TuringNYC on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:46PM (#34513745)
>> That's wrong. It's poetic, but incorrect. These tools are about as good as a non specialist with time to undertake some bullshitting.

Does it really matter when it comes to real life? Kids take medical advice from TikTok influencers. Half the country believes absurd news they see on Facebook. Half the country believes anything their president says.