News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by dougmwne on Saturday January 21, 2023 @08:16PM (#34472996)
Shutting down AltSpace should be a loud warning bell for Meta’s Horizon Worlds. Horizon is basically a badly executed AltSpace.

AltSpace was super niche, but some artists and marginalized people seemed to find a home there. It was like an odd cross between a digital Burning Man and a BIPOC LGTBQ+ neurodivergent support group. I had a memorable conversation during the height of the pandemic with an older gay man whose husband had recently died of cancer. VR can be a kind of ultimate safe space for people who are hurting. No one can touch you, you put on a disguise, and you can leave at any time.

It had something going on, but was a Grand Canyon away from mass market appeal.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by pharke on Saturday January 21, 2023 @08:39PM (#34473154)
Nah, Microsoft and Meta are obviously partnering up. This is likely just a symptom of that with Meta getting buy in from Microsoft to use Meta's VR platform. I agree that Horizon is the worse of the two but that doesn't mean they'll fail. Worse is better sometimes. The lynchpin will be if Meta is really married to Unity, Unreal Engine is eating Unity's lunch with adoption and features. If Meta makes the jump to UE they'll win a bigger share of the market with a far superior engine. It waits to be seen.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by h0l0cube on Saturday January 21, 2023 @09:15PM (#34473454)
It's more that the industry is bearish on long bets in a tight financial climate. The tech for VR/AR is too clunky to seamlessly integrate into peoples' daily lives like mobile phones and smart phones were. There will need to be an iPhone-like leap in affordable and portable vision tech before VR/AR becomes a feasible marketplace.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by andirk on Saturday January 21, 2023 @09:21PM (#34473498)
There was Google Glass but it got laughed out of town for being made for dorks. Seemed like perfectly good tech.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by relyks on Saturday January 21, 2023 @09:27PM (#34473534)
I don’t think Google Glass provides any augmented reality functionality? It’s just a mobile head-up display. You need a lot more processing power (and clunkier hardware) to be able to do augmented reality
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by boppo1 on Saturday January 21, 2023 @09:34PM (#34473586)
Iirc there was some face-punching resistance to people recording discreetly. I suspect that may have subsided some in many areas due to the longer them of high-res-video-recorder ubiquity.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by mbfg on Saturday January 21, 2023 @09:52PM (#34473719)
don't disagree, i find it interesting that people get unbelievably angered when individuals record them in public, but could care less when business do. I could understand some difference in reaction between the two, but the actual gulf displayed is astounding.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by porknubbins on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:17PM (#34473881)
I’m not familiar with the google glass incidents but surely people have good reason to feel differently about being singled out and clandestinely recorded by an individual compared to a business that automatically records everyone who enters. I don’t think carrying a camera down the street would get you punched.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by boppo1 on Sunday January 22, 2023 @06:17AM (#34476283)
I don't disagree. I'm not saying how they should feel, just that I think they feel less of it lately.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by elif on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:12PM (#34473851)
The pizza place's security camera isn't going to prank me or ask me about a sensitive topic and then same day blast my reaction on 7 vertical format video platforms as an out of context meme with sensationally misleading captions.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by MomoXenosaga on Sunday January 22, 2023 @10:07AM (#34478046)
There are laws that prohibit companies from filming and posting it online. You can sue them for millions of dollars.

Private persons can leak all this stuff anonymously and nobody is going to track them down. Glasshole also represented a new frontier for hackers.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by nmstoker on Sunday January 22, 2023 @04:36AM (#34475774)
I never understood why they didn't let the camera flip up (to give visual appearance you weren't recording directly ahead). A simple physical move could have helped it gain acceptance
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by xwdv on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:16PM (#34473873)
Ray Ban Stories are basically the acceptable version of 80% of the purpose behind Google Glass: taking photos and videos.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by polio on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:20PM (#34473900)
VR will always be more of a destination, whereas the vision for AR is that it'll integrate with your daily life via a wearable.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by h0l0cube on Sunday January 22, 2023 @12:53AM (#34474754)
When display technology has miniaturised and matured, and the requisite wireless bandwidth is deployed at scale, you won’t need two different devices
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by waynecochran on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:46PM (#34474027)
We (https://www.quintar.ai/home) are learning we can do a lot with a phone. But I hope someone figures out AR glasses.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by slaw on Sunday January 22, 2023 @02:28AM (#34475206)
It is not tight financial climate it is normal financial climate.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by TomSwirly on Sunday January 22, 2023 @04:27AM (#34475734)
Corporations are almost universally posting record profits. In what way is this a "tight financial climate"?

Answer: some people will do anything to justify corporate cruelty to peope.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by pharke on Sunday January 22, 2023 @05:31PM (#34482937)
On the price point, the original iPhone retailed for $499USD which in inflation adjusted dollars today would be $714USD. The Quest 2 is significantly cheaper than that as a standalone device. The Quest Pro is much more expensive but is targeted at businesses, watch Zuck's intro of it if you doubt that. The biggest barrier is that for really good performance on any headset you need to tether to a gaming PC. That's a lot more cost and complication for non-technical people. That said, the hardware is there and capable of delivering outstanding visuals and inside out tracking. The compute and networking are lagging behind, we really need a small, user friendly and powerful device that anyone can go buy, plug in and then connect their VR headset to with 0 frustration. That would free up headsets to only worry about the displays and tracking.

I don't think the future of VR is portable. I have an aversion to lumping AR in with it since they are fundamentally different. If it makes it easier, VR is desktop, AR is mobile. Similar but not at all the same. The way I envision the future of VR is that it does for your physical experiences what computers and the internet did for your paperwork and documents. Thinking about VR as a cellphone is the wrong mental model, it's not a peripheral that exists in your physical environment. It is a replacement for your physical environment or more congenially, it is another physical environment to which you can travel in addition to the places you currently go to.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by jimmySixDOF on Sunday January 22, 2023 @01:19AM (#34474904)
I am afraid you are not paying much attention to the xr dev community which is overwhelmingly Unity vs UE. Both have their shortcomings but the new UE features like Nanite don't work out of the box double rendered and thats just one reason.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by curioussavage on Sunday January 22, 2023 @03:39AM (#34475514)
I’m pretty sure it works in vr now. Just not on mobile vr which would matter for meta.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by pharke on Sunday January 22, 2023 @05:37PM (#34482996)
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by jimmySixDOF on Monday January 23, 2023 @08:06AM (#34488293)
Yes, Alex and his team(s) are out there in the front pushing what's possible but its not off the shelf he has a lot of talent. Big fan of his Heavenue work on live rendered VR/XR/3D shows & the one they did for A Christmas Carroll is still state of the art theater.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by pharke on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @08:39AM (#34503382)
I've also played a few indie VR games that are using it. It's not like you have to be some technical wizard to enable it, you just need to make sure you aren't stomping on your FPS with a bunch of other stuff at the same time.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by jimmySixDOF on Thursday February 02, 2023 @02:41AM (#34623432)
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by nkrisc on Saturday January 21, 2023 @08:44PM (#34473197)
That’s cool for the people who are part of these communities, but also explains why I never heard of any of these things.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by cududa on Saturday January 21, 2023 @09:40PM (#34473631)
I suspect Microsoft knows full well that 343 wouldn't be capable of producing a "metaverse". Activision though? With a sort of contiguous open world standardize "game engine" used by all the properties? Now we're talking real metaverse tech.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by goldcd on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:27PM (#34473936)
Just need to download the 90 gig client, then I'll join your Teams 2 call.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by LexGray on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:59PM (#34474105)
Just part of the standard OS install. Nobody notices bloat any more.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by sonofhans on Sunday January 22, 2023 @01:04AM (#34474817)
> Just part of the standard OS install.

Now, where have I heard that before? :D

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by tinus_hn on Sunday January 22, 2023 @10:19AM (#34478165)
A very large amount of people notice the bloat in Teams, how it wastes your memory, cpu and your battery and how it makes your laptop fan spin.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by pronlover723 on Saturday January 21, 2023 @09:48PM (#34473689)
No one can touch you but they can hurt you in the same way people hurt others online all the time. Verbal abuse, name calling, derogatory remarks, unwanted solicitation, etc...
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by generalizations on Saturday January 21, 2023 @09:52PM (#34473708)
> and you can leave at any time
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by l33t233372 on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:15PM (#34473870)
You can do that online as well, no?

I suppose if you elect to not remain anonymous there could be an issue, but generally speaking I don’t know that this is a problem.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by dougmwne on Saturday January 21, 2023 @11:00PM (#34474111)
Yes, VR is online, but it’s a weird embodied immersive presence version of online that can feel a bit like hanging out in meatspace. And it has a off button.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by TulliusCicero on Sunday January 22, 2023 @02:44AM (#34475276)
Yes, but VR has the advantage of feeling closer to IRL meetups in some ways. Head and hand movement does a lot.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by Mikeb85 on Sunday January 22, 2023 @03:41AM (#34475524)
Everyone's pushing IRL meetings though. Apart from tech, most industries are back at the office...
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by TulliusCicero on Sunday January 22, 2023 @03:43AM (#34475532)
Were we talking specifically about corporate work? There's more to meetings or meetups than just your job.

That said, I think VR/AR may eventually be a way to enhance online work meetings. It doesn't seem like it's there yet overall, but eventually I could definitely see it working.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by techwizard81 on Sunday January 22, 2023 @06:47AM (#34476462)
Can you elaborate on how VR would enhance meetings? I really don’t see the point myself. I don’t want to meet some avatar in a virtual room and I don’t know anybody who would.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by Firmwarrior on Sunday January 22, 2023 @11:52AM (#34479301)
He elaborated and you didn't understand

There are tons of accounts of how you feel a sense of 'presence' in VR. The head tracking fools your lizard brain into thinking you're actually there in the virtual world.

If you're reading this site I'm guessing you have access to $400. Just go buy a Quest 2 and try it out for 10 minutes, and you'll see what I mean.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by TulliusCicero on Monday January 23, 2023 @12:21AM (#34485783)
Compared to standard video calls, there'd be a much greater sense of presence. Head movement, hand movement, and eye contact (once that's standard) would increase how close it feels to IRL meetings.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by tessierashpool on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:23PM (#34473913)
"if people are trying to chase you away, you can always leave."

not a solution per se

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by dougmwne on Saturday January 21, 2023 @11:38PM (#34474344)
Or mute them, which is an excellent solution.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by gpm on Saturday January 21, 2023 @11:50PM (#34474414)
Which is a solution that scales extremely poorly in a global environment with potentially billions of people you might want to mute. More so in an environment which supports anonymity, so that they can just keep creating new accounts.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by u801e on Sunday January 22, 2023 @12:37AM (#34474672)
In that case one could rely on an allow list rather than a block list.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by KyeRussell on Sunday January 22, 2023 @01:54AM (#34475065)
Now you’re so keen on being right that you’ve lost sight of the value that was originally proposed in the first place.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by michaelmrose on Sunday January 22, 2023 @12:01AM (#34474474)
Kind of like spam you can heuristically figure out who is hurling abuse at people and ban/shadowban/automute their communications to people they are attempting to abuse.

I can imagine that the same way you have a shared list of undesirables. Essentially an assholeblock instead of adblock.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by themitigating on Sunday January 22, 2023 @02:08AM (#34475125)
This would be a good idea but people can just make new accounts. It would also be open to abuse so it would need an appeal system and some sort of judiciary.

I don't understand why reputation isn't a solution offered for spam and bad people. Why not make users on the internet build trust.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by michaelmrose on Sunday January 22, 2023 @02:28AM (#34475202)
For egregious breaches you don't need to give them an appeal just ban them. For less egregious situations client side filtering like adblock doesn't get one either by virtue of people not owing you their time.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by themitigating on Sunday January 22, 2023 @02:02AM (#34475098)
You can also avoid talking to people and attending social events as much possible but that's terrible as humans are social.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by echelon on Saturday January 21, 2023 @09:58PM (#34473754)
VRChat is winning VR.

Despite there being a few alternatives (Neos, Chillout, etc.), nothing reaches the scale of VRChat's community, platform, and developer ecosystem.

Whoever buys VRChat wins VR.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by transcriptase on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:31PM (#34473957)
Whoever buys VRChat will impose publicly-traded-tech-giant-“can’t upset the investors, Washington, or the media” guidelines/DMCA to it, and ruin it in the span of two years.

It’s popular because you can do whatever you want, which is the antithesis of companies like Alphabet/Microsoft/Meta.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by troymc on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:21PM (#34473901)
There's also Rec Room, with a similar number of monthly active users.

More numbers can be found at https://www.metaversed.consulting/blog/metaverse-universe-q1...

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by KVFinn on Sunday January 22, 2023 @12:00AM (#34474467)
Yup. They both have social and game/physical aspects but each excels at the opposite. It's interesting to compare the Among Us and Fall Guys implementations in each.

Together they basically make up a basic Meta Verse already.

AltSpace and many others were actually pretty comparable technically, for a time anyway. Just never hit critical mass

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by charcircuit on Sunday January 22, 2023 @01:08AM (#34474837)
>VRChat is winning VR.

>nothing reaches the scale of VRChat's community, platform, and developer ecosystem.

Neos and Chillout require VR. Most VRChat players play the game without VR.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by andybak on Sunday January 22, 2023 @02:44AM (#34475275)
Source?
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by charcircuit on Sunday January 22, 2023 @04:53AM (#34475866)
https://metrics.vrchat.community

Look at the last graph which compares the total vrchat player count to the steam player count. All non Steam users are Quest users. There are more Steam users than Quest users even that the Quest is a much bigger VR platform than PCVR. The Steam player count is so high because it is counting desktop users who do not use VR.

This data does not support my argumunt that most vrchat players play on desktop. I would be curious about focusing on just the Steam users and seeing what percentage of them used VR.

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by ScottEvtuch on Sunday January 22, 2023 @10:04AM (#34478002)
If you buy the game on Steam but play using a Quest don't you count as a Steam user? It would launch using SteamVR.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by charcircuit on Sunday January 22, 2023 @02:52PM (#34481542)
Only if you launch the Steam version of the game.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by andybak on Monday January 23, 2023 @06:10AM (#34487503)
OK. So there's a lot of assumptions there. I won't get into whether I agree or disagree with your conclusion but I would say your original statement made it sound much more factual than it turned out to be.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by brodokk on Sunday January 22, 2023 @08:04AM (#34476966)
Sorry to say but you can play Neos and Chillout without VR. Source? Just simply check the steam page of both...

I can only talk about neos, most players play in VR yes. (Source from the API directly)

For Chillout I don't know how to check this infromation

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by jhou2 on Sunday January 22, 2023 @01:18AM (#34474900)
Eventually every app becomes chat.
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by nonethewiser on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:27PM (#34473937)
Yikes
Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by thwarted on Saturday January 21, 2023 @10:53PM (#34474065)
VR can be a kind of ultimate safe space for people who are hurting. No one can touch you, you put on a disguise, and you can leave at any time.

Maybe. Doesn't mean harassment is impossible.

https://www.villagevoice.com/2005/10/18/a-rape-in-cyberspace...

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by Ntrails on Sunday January 22, 2023 @05:52AM (#34476142)
Sounds a lot like chat rooms on early community websites. Just a bunch of people (who in my case loved a specific set of books), chatting about whatever under a handle and without needing to carry around your real self - but nor with any fear to hide anything.

I dunno, I cannot see anything like that ever surviving mass adoption

Re:Microsoft has laid off entire teams behind Virtual, Mixed... by MomoXenosaga on Sunday January 22, 2023 @10:02AM (#34477983)
That sounds like 4chan. And it doesn't work because you can't monetize it.

Browse to 4chan and turn off your ad blockers if you want to understand.