EDIT: Yes, you may not need 400A immediately, but if you're doing an upgrade, the cost delta between the conductors for 200A vs 400A is not substantial except for very long runs. Also, some utilities will cover the cost of a service upgrade to the meter; from the meter onward into the home is your cost. Balance cost with future needs, future labor costs, etc. Very similar to dropping a whole bunch of cheap fiber in a trench just in case you need it in the future.
I usually recommend people combine this work with a solar PV install, to capture the 30% federal tax credit towards the work (if you can justify the upgrade as necessary, which you can if your current service is less than 200A).
[1] https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/otps/policy_brief_dig_once.p...
I have all of these on 200A with amps to spare. But I have a small house. I suppose if I had multiple EVs, dryers, or heat pumps, or 3000sqft it would be a different story.
It's spending a small additional amount now (on wire) to avoid an enormous expense (trench digging) in the future.
Oh, and you know that 3" conduit required for the 400amp ? Make it 4".
Oh, and you know that trench you just dug ? Throw in double 1.5" and double 3/4 conduits right in there with it.
Oh and you know that first two feet of dirt you filled in ? Now throw two more 3/4 conduits on top of that because you never know when a common carrier on that same pole will have fiber up on it ...
Future you will be very happy you did.
The future could also look like large batteries on-site that charge slowly, and then provide power at high amperage when needed, like slowly compressing a spring, then suddenly releasing it.
This is already what Electrify America and Freewire (https://freewiretech.com/) are doing with EV Fast chargers when the electric utility can't provide a higher power connection in a reasonable time-frame. As battery prices drop, that could be a viable way to power heavy home appliances.
I've never heard of a UK house having a larger than 100A service (although I imagine they exist here and there - it's certainly not common).
UK: 100 A x 230 V = 23,00 W
US: 200 A x 120 V = 24,00 W
Edit: I am wrong in my understanding of US Voltages. It's 200 A per leg, which the US has two of.
> UK: 100 A x 230 V = 23,00 W
> US: 200 A x 120 V = 24,00 W
That's incorrect. The service drop in the US is 220V. It gets stepped down at the main load center to 120V for most of the regular circuits. So it's more like 48000W service in US houses.
Houses and apartments in Denmark have 3 phase service. My apartment's main breaker is labelled 40A @ 380V.
I believe the oven and hob make use of it, but I haven't looked myself.
I run an induction stove on 220V single phase every day here in the US.
240V. Since we're throwing around numbers, let's be accurate. This is a pet peeve of mine. We've been standardized at 240V since 1967, and it was higher than 220V years before that.
However, it seems like 220V was the standard before that [1], which is why it's still common parlance, referring to the "higher" voltage. Certainly I've heard many people in the trades still refer to it with the older term, even if the circuit is actually 240V.
So when you install a 400A panel in the US, it's 400A*240V which is 96,000W.
One thing I keep learning about the EU is ... do not generalize using Germany as the baseline. There are many areas where Germany is the odd one out, not the standard.
It's not about having 400 amps per se but about sizing the wire you put in the ground. Maybe you'll have a 200a main breaker and you'll only ever use 200 amps, etc. - but the hard part was digging and future you or other future yous will be happy that the wire was upsized when it was put in.
Same with conduit. Same with number of conduits.
I can't tell you how many times I have been very please with myself that I threw in that extra 3/4 conduit line when we dug that one trench that one time ...
You can also get a separate meter installed instead or alongside, this can be useful it the property could be dual purpose (think: duplex, house + machine shop, etc). This can increase costs because of double baseline but it can also reduce costs because of double "low tier" - depends on the market.
Curiously, we’re in opposite situations. I have a (very) basic understanding of electricity, just enough to change power outlets and the like. But in general I’m baffled by it because it’s a bunch of dangerous stuff I can’t see with values I don’t fully understand¹.
Plumbing, on the other hand, is water inside tubes controlled mechanically. After turning off the main valve, taking things apart reveals the simplicity of the system. Most importantly, after doing a fix I can feel confident in the safety and reliability of the work².
¹ If anyone has recommendations on a trustworthy course / YouTube playlist which teaches enough basics to understand electrical wiring in residential homes, I’m interested.
² I’m not doing super complex jobs, but in my own home it’s been years since I’ve needed to call a plumber.
I did help teach an autotutorial class in physics for premeds which got me to do a little more with fluid mechanics than most people but the trouble I have with plumbing is finding documentation for the details.
For instance when it comes to sealing PVC pipes I have seen instructions that tell you to "refer to the documentation from the pipe manufacturer" which is not at all straightforward for pipes that have been there 20+ years.
In many regions, doing it legally requires lots of courses and certificates. When you have invested all the time and money into getting said certificates, which is sometimes multiple years full time, you typically want to become a full time electrician to pay back the time+money investment.
That means that 'I just do electrics on the side' is becoming a thing of the past - at least in places with strict certification requirements.
Therefore, lots of people DIY stuff illegally...
If you choose this route, understand that:
* The main cause of injury/death caused by electrics is fires. Fires are normally caused by improper fuses (a fuse/breaker should always be the lowest rating of any device/cable/connector downstream of it, unless that device has its own fuse), or badly made joints. Do joints properly with wago blocks or by tightening screw terminals very tight.
* The 'obvious' risk from electrics of electrocution is reduced to almost zero by installing a whole-house RCD/GFCI device. I wouldn't want to live in a house without one. And turn the power off before doing electrical work.
It is still worthwhile to understand what you're doing, and how the breakers/GFCI/Arc fault will save your ass - and why they are NOT the same thing!
I'd be interested to see tests demonstrating otherwise though.
Obviously if you are doing it to the standards, you crimp the wire first and use a torque screwdriver to tighten to the exact correct torque.
That depends what you see as near-fire ;) I recently helped out a friend whose lights had issues after she installed a more powerful fixture, turns out that the person installing it overtorqued the wire in the switch so much it nearly sheared off probably already during installation, and came completely apart when I took the switch out of the wall.
Better be safe than sorry and use Wago clips.
Strands only break when wire moves and that would be the fault of bad stress relief, not "screwing it too hard"
She's right. Induction has the speed and response of a gas cooktop with the precision a resistance electric cooktop.
> and an electric water heater.
Make sure it's a heat pump water heater if efficiency and operating cost matter to you.
This, and also easier cleanability than either of them (basically it doesn't need more cleaning than the rest of your kitchen counter) and much safer (won't heat anything non-metallic that you leave on top, won't heat the surface of the stovetop itself except indirectly via heat transmission from the pots/pans, and will automatically turn off if it doesn't detect a metallic item).
I have one and there's no way in hell I'd go back to an ordinary electric range as long as I can afford not to.
As with the touchscreens in cars, I'm sure it's also about marketing a sleeker product and lowering the bill of materials and labor - hence cost of manufacturing.
Just wait a little longer and a manufacturer will start offering physical dials on an induction stove as a high-end feature, but also realize that it will still be control by wire like a computer input device, not a mechanically coupled control like a (dumb) dimmer switch - since it would be ultimately controlling the inductor in the stovetop via software.
Don't get me wrong there's other pros/cons to induction but you don't need to get induction to have those benefits.
I had no idea that some non-induction cooktops could also detect pans, though. In my mind that feature has always been linked to induction. Good to know it's not necessarily like that.
The problem with induction is the thing it's good at (heating water quickly) isn't a useful feature. A gas flame is a 3D cooking surface and this is important as I want heat applied to the sides of pans in many instances. Also, copper and aluminium cookware don't work on them and they are superior materials for cooking with in many instances.
I know exactly what to expect when I set my induction stove to 8 (out of 10) and let my daily-use pan heat for 1 minute. That's the setting at which I can temper oil with dry spices without burning them.
This isn't a function of the induction element, but rather the digital controls. Naturally I adjust the setting once the cold food goes in the pan, but having a calibrated starting point for my cooking flow is pretty useful, and I cook for my family daily.
> The problem with induction is the thing it's good at (heating water quickly) isn't a useful feature.
An induction stove can heat anything quickly, not just water. And importantly it can rapidly change temperature, unlike a resistance electric stove.
> Also, copper and aluminium cookware don't work on them and they are superior materials for cooking with in many instances.
You can just use one of these:
https://www.inductioncooked.com/how-to-use-non-induction-coo...
However, I've never seen a recipe that called for a copper or aluminum pan specifically. The benefit of copper is supposed to be precision temperature control, but as you said, precise temperatures don't matter for day to day cooking.
Same, I just turn a knob and it outputs the same BTUs every time - it isn't random.
>An induction stove can heat anything quickly, not just water. And importantly it can rapidly change temperature, unlike a resistance electric stove.
Again, I'm generally not too concerned about speed here. But yes, I'm very much concerned with changing temperatures quickly which involve not only the heat source but just as importantly, the cookware which leads me to....
> You can just use one of these:...The benefit of copper is supposed to be precision temperature control, but as you said, precise temperatures don't matter for day to day cooking.
Copper is a superior material because it changes temperature extremely quickly because it is such a great conductor - it's not about precision (except with candy making where induction could be great) rather than reactivity. When I turn the gas up the pan reacts to that change immediately and when I turn the gas down it reacts immediately to that. Unlike a material like cast iron which can store a lot of energy, it doesn't react to changes in input quickly so is not suitable for many things - you can't finesse a cast iron pan very easily. Seriously, get a nice gas range and a high end copper pan and cook with it - you'll be amazed. It's why so many chefs insist on the combination of gas and copper.
And no, I'm not buying one of those useless disks to make a copper pan work in induction. It kills the entire point of a copper pan and just gives you a cool, high-end look without the actual functionality. I'd feel like a complete fool because I would be.
I'm happy induction exists for people that want it or believe gas will harm them. But it's not for everyone and there's extremely good reasons many people want to cook over open flame. When I'm not using gas to cook you'll find me outside burning wood fires to cook with.
I cooked on gas for 25 years, including with all sorts of pots/pans. It was great and I preferred it greatly to resistance electric stoves. And then I switched to induction and couldn't be happier with both the cooking performance and the indoor air quality improvement. You (and many others) aren't concerned with or don't believe in the air quality problems of burning gas in a house. To each their own!
For my part, I tell everyone I know to maximize ventilation if they are cooking indoors with gas, and to try an induction stove to see if it works for them.
> When I'm not using gas to cook you'll find me outside burning wood fires to cook with.
That has nothing to do with the discussion about induction, but great, because I also love cooking over burning wood! We're more alike than you think!
I think that’s the problem. There’s unelected officials suggesting they’re going to just ban them based on a biased (and very faulty - it isn’t quality science) study funded by activists groups. I’ve used induction and it’s ok but it doesn’t feel right to be, I can’t use materials I prefer, and I can’t do things like hold a pan a bit higher for a second, flambé, etc. I love induction for deep frying though. It’s much safer!
I have a 1300 cfm exhaust with a makeup air system so I’m not concerned.
Look for a "smart heat pump" water heater and you can probably get away without actually upgrading service unless you want to - 100 amp service can support a stove and water heater especially if the water heater is "smart" enough to not run when the stove is running.
You can also find a friendly electrician to "check off" on your wiring after you do most of the grunt work, this works well for areas that require permits even for homeowner-done work.
When you're getting your certifications, you have to get both.
You can specialize in one, but you have to know plumbing and electrical work to pass.
It's only in pre-orders, however. Edit: Looks like first round of pre-orders were limited to Bay Area and now there's a wait list for next round.
I thought induction used slightly less energy. Or is it that it uses more energy for a shorter time so the net is less but the peak is higher?
I assume I could replace my electric stove with a stove with induction "burners".
With electric, it heats up a coil that heats up your pan (and the air around it) that heats your food.
With induction, it skips the coil and simply heats the pan. The pans are specially designed to contain a heating coil in them which implicitly is closer to your food.
It also means the work surface tends to cool quickly (or never get hot in the first place), making it safer.
Just to note, you don’t need special pans to use an inductive stove. Any magnetic cookware will do, which includes cast iron and most stainless steel. As an intuitive rule of thumb, if a magnet will stick to the bottom, then it’s compatible.
And copper and aluminium. Some stoneware too as well as glass when needed.
This is not correct. Any ferric-metal pan/pot will work. If a magnet can stick to your pot it will work.
Like, do the induction ones do something to make the heat distribution more equal compared to slab of steel ?
You can put SMALLER outlets on a larger breaker (40 amp outlet on a 50 amp breaker) because the outlet is SUPPOSED to keep you from overloading it (and the outlet will actually be rated for more than the "plug size")
The DANGER you must avoid is having a 50 amp outlet on a 50 amp breaker but only having wiring between them that can support 40 amps - and the amount of amperage a wire can support DROPS over longer distances. So it's best to size everything correctly from the beginning.
There is a fun semi related thing. Can you put 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit? The answer is yes you can, but only if there is at least two receptacles, and a standard duplex outlet counts at two receptacles.
Almost every outlet must be paired with the appropriate wire size and breaker. A 30A outlet must be backed with a 30A breaker (no exceptions!) and wire must be at least capable of carrying 30 amps. There's also restrictions on wire size based on the outlet/breaker, since certain breakers/outlets cannot handle certain wire sizes. For instance, NEMA 5-15 outlets generally can't support wire sizes above 12 gauge, so you're limited to 12 or 14 gauge only.
Fortunately our son is in training as a handyman and that means we can get him working on projects of all kinds around the farm. Of all the trades, electricity is the one that I know enough about to supervise somebody. (e.g. I am baffled by plumbing)