I'm a big fan of old scifi films and series and the more obscure ones are getting harder to track down. Quite a lot of the stuff produced in the early 70s is sometimes available on DVD which can easily be ripped, but it depends on whether it was popular enough for them to issue it.
With some old BBC series, I'm in the position of paying for a license, but not everything is available. Just before Xmas, I was searching for M.R.James Christmas Ghost Story adaptations and whilst I was able to get the newer Mark Gatiss produced ones from iPlayer, the older "Tractate Middoth" isn't available (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03n2rnf).
There's going to be so many lost productions unless pirates get together to hoard old media.
There is no actual pirating going on when you copy a digital file. Now there could be a loss of income if it grows out of control and artists are not being compensated. So obviously the discussion should focus on that.
Steam already solved piracy for gaming. Make it easy to download and manage your games. Apparently the same hasn’t played out for movies and songs on the whole.
Note we did have this conversation, years if not decades before. Everyone "in the know" already understands this. I bet most HN readers understand this.
It's just that general consumers don't, and there was a successful propaganda campaign by media owners and distributors to label this as "piracy", and the name stuck.
It seems educating users is an uphill battle when fighting against a propaganda campaign by companies with deep pockets.
I can't tell if you're taking the word literally or not. For the sake of argument:
Obviously there is no boat-stealing or plundering involved - no Johnny Depp or kraken here. But separately from whatever meaning you attach to the word "piracy" - illegally downloading creative works is theft. You are not entitled to someone else's creative work under any conditions other than those that they set, period.
Unless an artist explicitly says "here's this public domain artwork, share it however you want" (which some people do!), pirating is stealing - you are taking the work of someone's hands without paying them for it, and it literally doesn't matter if you wouldn't have paid for it in the first place, because the work does not belong to you - it belongs to the creator and they get to set the terms of use.
If you want a game or a TV show or a movie so badly - make it yourself. Put your own effort and time and resources and creative energy into it - then you can set whatever terms you want on its distribution.
Believing that you have the right to take whatever creative work that someone else put their effort into that you can get away with not paying for is one of the most extreme cases of entitlement I've ever witnessed, and it demonstrates an extreme selfishness and lack of respect for other human beings as equals.
I would be very interested to hear what moral axioms could justify the position of "I can take whatever I want from other people as long as it doesn't deprive them of a physical good".
Before electronic copies, the only way to do that would be to physically steal such a thing. However, if it were possible to make copies of things via magic, without depriving people of such things, I don't think people would consider it theft. In literature, people tended to look on the idea of such things as wonderful miracles, to be celebrated -- feeding a herd of people from only a few fish, or a fairy godmother spinning fancy clothes via magic. No one ever reading Cinderella has ever considered it immoral for the fairy godmother to generate such a thing, and I suspect that most of society would similarly view it as natural and moral to let friends have copies of things that we have.
Imagine being able to say, "Oh, yeah, this desk has perfect ergonomics for me! here's the pattern/recipe and you can print one once you get home", or "oh yeah, I like this TV design way better than my old one, here's how you can make one too" -- in short, we _absolutely_ would download a car, or give someone else a copy of our car.
Now if only we could figure out how to pass value to creators and inventors in a way that isn't threatened by that, or by the advent of inventing-things-via-AI.
I can imagine a world where each creative negotiates their public contract associated with a work, then when the work is released anyone in the world can pay/donate anything they want to the wallet in direct recognition and know without question that every creator will get a fair piece of it.
“Piracy” would be the same as the radio (a convenient way to get exposure), and I suspect that people who do the actual work would see much less drama.
Or buy a knockoff for cheap.
When these so called “creatives” (read: administrators) are making billions upon billions nickel and diming every little resemblance to “their work” (read: administrators and investors paying actual creators that lack negotiation skills jack diddly) at the cost of all of society (how far does copyright go these days?), they can stick it.
By pirating, a user is not TAKING something from someone. That is like trying to own an idea and suing people for having the same idea. Digital data is easily duplicated and hurts no one to duplicate. If you wanted to be a twat and micromanage your works, you shouldn’t have digitized it. Go be a traditional oil artist or an opera singer or a circus performer, where in person experiences matter.
If you want all the benefits of the digital world, then suck it up and be ready for digital works to be duplicated.
Because they're right, the closest physical equivalent of software "piracy" isn't stealing, which takes the existing item and deprives someone of it, it's forgery, which creates a new "copy" of the item that certainly doesn't have the right provenance and incidentally might, possibly, differ in functional characteristics as well. It devalues legitimate copies of the item in the same ways that counterfeiting does, not the way that theft does.
Stealing is bad for a specific reason: it's a zero sum game. If you are to benefit from stealing somebody else has to lose something. Stealing is parasitism (benefiting while harming someone else) on other people / society. But if I could magically create a copy of something you own (e.g. your TV), and we both keep our own copy, there is nothing morally wrong with that, even if there are arbitrary laws that make it illegal.
Piracy is closer to the second case. Me making a copy of a file does not limit others from using that file. It is not a zero sum game. It's commensalism (benefiting without harming or benefiting anyone else), not parasitism. Morally it is at worst neutral.
Not to mention that copyright hasn't been a thing for the wast majority of human history and we did just fine. Standing up to arbitrary, unjust laws is a moral good.
Doesn’t copying a digital work without consent deprive the creator (and all associated parties) of revenue?
Isn’t deliberately depriving a person or persons of remuneration for their work stealing?
The laws against making digital copies of a work without the consent of the rights holder are not arbitrary. They’re in place to ensure those who invested time and money into creating something can earn money from the thing they create.
>Doesn’t copying a digital work without consent deprive the creator (and all associated parties) of revenue?
Depriving of revenue is not stealing, as I outlined in my previous post. The author still has access to their work, and the ability to sell it if there is sufficient demand. If something was stolen, neither of those are the case.
>Isn’t deliberately depriving a person or persons of remuneration for their work stealing?
No, as I outlined clearly in my previous comment. If this were true I could ask you for $100, you could refuse, and that would be theft because you "deprive me of revenue". This would be ridiculous for obvious reasons.
>The laws against making digital copies of a work without the consent of the rights holder are not arbitrary. They’re in place to ensure those who invested time and money into creating something can earn money from the thing they create.
You might have had a case here if copyright ended with the death of the author and was limited to a reasonable time frame within the lifespan of an author, but this has not been the case for a long time. Copyright in the US is up to 70 years after the authors death. That is an arbitrary and unjust law that only benefits mega corps. Hence it is morally right to stand against the law through civil disobedience.
The act of people stealing the work is a clear demonstration of sufficient demand, no? If the price is too high or supply too low, that doesn’t excuse theft. It never has.
Wage theft is stealing. If I tell you I’ll paint your house for $100 and then paint your house and you don’t pay me, that’s theft, which is stealing.
Piracy is equivalent to wage theft, which is stealing. A bunch of people did a bunch of work and ask that people pay for the output of their labor. Those who decide to take that output without paying are stealing. They are thieves.
The length of copyright laws is a separate matter. Yeah, they protect major artists and labels with millions, but they also protect small artists who live off their work.
If you take a digital copy of something for free that you should have paid for, you are not a pirate and you are not Robin Hood, you are a thief. The same as someone who walks into a store and steals or snatches a purse off a park bench.
I’ve been seeing people deflect morality over stealing digital copies for most of my life and it’s always amazed me how it’s the only act of thievery that people openly discuss and brag about.
Somehow stealing copies of art is okay, but stealing cars is not.
Maybe you should try considering why this is so. Perhaps it's not actually thievery?
Someone made something with the intention of selling _copies_ of said thing.
Taking a copy for free deprives the creator (or the rights owner) of revenue. That is stealing.
Yeah it’s often exceedingly inconvenient or sometimes impossible to legally obtain a copy of a movie, song, book or software. But that still doesn’t justify stealing a copy.
The availability of copies of digital products to you is at the discretion of the rights holder. You don’t get to decide that you now have the right to take a free copy.
If you decide to take a free copy of a digital product without the rights holder’s consent, you are stealing, which is wrong, no matter how much you want the thing or how expensive or difficult it is to obtain.
Really? When/where?
Are libraries entitled to loan any book on the market? Do they need permission? Do they ever provide compensation?
My understanding is the answers are yes, no, and nothing besides the normal purchase price of the book.
Self-publishing is growing year over year. More and more authors are publishing their own work on platforms where they get 70% (in case of KDP)-100% (in case of direct sales) royalties. Along with the time to write the actual thing this also usually involves paying out of pocket for things like editors and covers. If you're genuinely committed to this scenario you're describing, I hope you check whether you're actually "taking from robbers" or taking from the author who created the book you're enjoying.
Having to manage 7 subscription services for the 5 movies I watch per month and having to divide by zero to transfer my files from one device to another is hell.
I don't buy digital goods anymore, except games. And you know why? Because everything is on steam and available with one click.
Can you look up the legal definition of theft in your country and post it.
Here's mine (Canada)
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-322.ht...
" 322 (1) Every one commits theft who fraudulently and without colour of right takes, or fraudulently and without colour of right converts to his use or to the use of another person, anything, whether animate or inanimate, with intent
(a) to deprive, temporarily or absolutely, the owner of it, or a person who has a special property or interest in it, of the thing or of his property or interest in it;
(b) to pledge it or deposit it as security;
(c) to part with it under a condition with respect to its return that the person who parts with it may be unable to perform; or
(d) to deal with it in such a manner that it cannot be restored in the condition in which it was at the time it was taken or converted. "
Please outline how downloading a movie meets that definition.
I'm not advocating piracy, but lets stop with the "theft" rhetoric which clearly it fails to meet the legal definition.
"to deprive the owner of it" it being copyright
They have the right over copies, and to make money from it if they choose.
Are you hung up on that it has to be some physical object?
Edit: to be clear, in this reasoning, the thing deprived from someone is not your copy of the movie, but rather the right of copying.
You really need to use the right word, and that word is infringement.
Theft requires someone somewhere be denied something they own and that does not happen when an unauthorized copy is performed.
Using the right words might lead us to better laws we all can live with. Starting with the wrong ones will continue to hurt everyone.
Well, you've bought into the lie. It is not theft because you are not depriving the original owner of it. it's breach of contract at the very most and it's an incredibly harmful to society contract that will likely never be fixed legally because entrenched interested have too much invested in keeping that system broken and abusing monopoly to rent seek excess profits from the masses.
Believing that you have the right to deprive me of the fruits of my own labor copying something is one of the most extreme cases of entitlement I've ever witnessed. No one is taking anything from anyone. The creator of the work still has their own copy of their work. People are spending their own effort making copies of data released into the wild by the creator and that's it.
Further, the economics of any particular created work where the marginal cost of copying is effectively zero are incredibly clear. The largest welfare improvement is from distributing that created work to everyone for the marginal cost (aka zero) and allowing everyone to create derivative works if they choose. The only reason to have any sort of copyright is to encourage additional works to be created and that should be tempered to the minimum time needed given the massive dead weight loss from distributing said works at above marginal cost. So, how long does a copyright term need to be to encourage new works? I am extremely skeptical of any claim beyond high single digit numbers of years and it is extremely clear that copyright terms measured in decades (or worse in author's life time plus decades) cause massive dead weight loss and are utter insanity.
Honest question, if Steam suddenly ceases to be, are these downloaded games playable?
https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/1355117576985...
Tractate Middoth adaptation is awful Gatiss tripe. (He's so hit-and-miss, and this is a miss for me). It's also on YouTube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5MlQgGu6nCU
My favorite of those M R.James adaptations, by far, is A View From A Hill. It's on YouTube.
I went on a scavenge hunt for M.R. James productions after catching Robert Lloyd Parry's (https://www.nunkie.co.uk/the-mr-james-project) reading of two stories in the basement of Bristol Cathedral. I've got hold of A View From A Hill but haven't seen it yet. Incidentally, I did enjoy the recent Count Magnus.
(I'm not even going to mention the complete rights cluster-duck that is Monkey Dust (and yes, I've already got a copy of all the series))
Some other titles to pique your interest:
1981 BBC version of The Day of the Triffids
1979 Tales of the Unexpected (not scifi really)
1979 Sapphire & Steel (with the most annoying introduction - they are not elements!)
1979 Quatermass series
1979 The Omega Factor
1978 Blake's 7 (should not really count as obscure due to the impact the series had)
1977 The Fantastic Journey
1977 Children of the Stones
1977 Beasts (anthology series by Nigel Kneale)
1975 Sky
1975 The Invisible Man (really cheesy, featuring David McCallum)
1975 The Changes
1974 Zodiac
1973 The Tomorrow People
1970 Timeslip
1969 The Owl Service
1968 The Champions
1966 The Time Tunnel
1966 Mission: Impossible
1965 Out of the Unknown
1960 The Strange World of Gurney Slade
1958 Quatermass and the Pit mini-series
1955 Quatermass II
Where do you find these seeded? I only know about Pirate Bay and 1337x.
There's a handful of old British TV that I've bought on DVD because I couldn't find anyone seeding it.
(Just bought the three seasons of Survivor on DVD now)
I hadn't heard of Survivors, but that looks right up my street. I used to be massively into Doctor Who and the Terry Nation novels. I can only find the first season easily.
1976 Gemini Man [another Invisible Man adaptation]
1976 Star Maidens
Can't find that anywhere though I was hopeful that BFI might have had a copy: https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b80e92d21
I have been told that the BBC have a massive digital vault of shows that are available to producers obviously since iPlayer came into being any shows listed are there, just not available. And they are constantly archiving old material.
The German public-service broadcasters like ARD, ZDF and many regional ones offer such a service. I can request a program from the 70ies, tell the name and (helpfully) where and when it was broadcasted. Then they search through their massive archive, make a copy on DVD and send them to you. It's not cheap (up to 40€ per hour of program), but it is legal for personal use. No need here to pirate anything, except very very old broadcasts from before ... around 1967.
Gets even harder when you're dealing with hearing loss and it's nearly impossible to find subtitles for some older releases, despite there having been such when they were available....even for some non-obscure stuff. Some stuff is sitting in streaming-rights purgatory, the last release was on DVD and no one has it any more, etc etc...
The people at OpenSubtitles.org do their best to curate a good collection but those are only as good as the people who upload them.
1. Rarbg or rutracker to dwn anything in minutes
2. mpv to watch anything in minutes with subtitles and bunch of flexible options that propriatery or FOSS tools like plex can only dream to have
3. enjoy life without commercials ever and hord stuff if you want it and pay for things after the fact
For books replace 1. with libgen and 2. with calibre reader.Yes, its 100x easier.
Games could be in some cases easier to buy, especially since you realy must test those for viruses and other malcious stuff, not something you should be concerned with multimedia.
However, I am sure it will turn out to be scam one day and you will lose access to all/most games you bought.
With Steam, GOG and Humble Bundle, it's never been easier to game on Linux. It feels like paradise.
In a way, gaming is in much better shape (re: convenience) than streaming TV shows these days. Yes, DRM for online play can be problematic for Proton -- but fuck those games!
Also, there are sandboxes if you are unsure and you can convert to safer formats.
Anyway, I yet have to meet somebody that was fucked up this way, I guess there are numerious easier options.
Its way more probably that your country will hunt you, if you live in that lame country in which case VPN is a thing :)
Without those restrictions, PDFs can execute embedded JavaScript on open, which can access and execute local files.
Not sure how ebook readers handle js or xml exploits.
On the other hand, you can find almost anything there, faaar more then on most other places.
It has awesome integration with open subtitles and remembers everything you do on a video so if it crashes or you stop, it just continues with everything set like volume, position subtitle sync etc.
To me that's the killer app right now, one-place-to-toggle-them-all, with a running tally of what you're paying this month. Unfortunately streaming companies have no vested interest in making it easier for people to turn on and off their subscriptions, so even if it could be done it'd be a constant arms race.
To pile up onto your example of Westworld, I was super annoyed when I subscribed to AMC+ to catch up on The Walking Dead, just to find out that only last few episodes of current season are available and since I was waiting for more to air, I am now SOL.
My issue with Plex is their unceasing dark patterns and attempts to monetize users. Forcing centralized accounts and constantly re-pinning their “value add” channels made me leave them. Also eroded my trust with them, I wouldn’t be shocked to learn that they log all the media I watch in their app…
And Amazon is now doing this shady thing where the subscription includes every episode except the hold the last episode of each season hostage and make you buy it separately.
I think your best bet would be to just use a website like https://www.justwatch.com/au
The Apple TV App (on iOS/iPadOS) does this. It even links you directly to the show in the app, assuming you have a valid subscription on that app. If it's not streamable, you can almost always "buy" or rent it.
It's not perfect, but it's the best there is that I'm aware of.
I basically agree with everything else you said.
Why is it not possible to pay for this version of the stream? Even if I sign up for ESPN through Comcast or whatever hoops I have to jump through to access live sports, I still get the version with the ads and screen junk. Pirate streams are higher def and just more pleasant to watch. Sometimes you can even choose streams with no commentation at all, just the sounds of the sport. Where are these options in the paid streaming service?
Because they want both your money and ad money.
I don't know why people ever accepted advertising on pay cable TV. Pay to watch ads?
Ads made sense on over-the-air broadcast because there was no way to earn revenue from that other than a BBC-style "license" tax that wouldn't really fly in the US (though we do have NPR so...)
Lots of people want to support the artist and have a convenient system.
And then Netflix solved a lot of those problems for a reasonable price.
And then through paying attention to the goldmine of watch data, they did it even better than piracy.
We knew that the licensing model would catch people off-guard eventually, but for a time they had actually solved it.
Then, they lost the contracts.
And media companies saw them as competitors instead of partners.
And Netflix brought back region locks (some not their fault, but some that was).
And the prices started to go up in chorus with the anti-consumer practices.
And now we’re back to the fragmented battleground that was cable TV.
And the book industry has somehow stayed just as bad the whole time, in many ways more draconian than Hollywood...
Maybe next time the pendulum swings back in favour of the consumers, we’ll end up with better contracts so we can avoid this sort thing as it swings over to producers again.
I’m not playing this game.
This isn't just true for books. Streaming film/TV is essentially cable TV at this point: you either pay out your arse for all streaming services or you have to constantly micromanage different subscriptions. Even if you are happy with the former, there is no way to centrally browse everything so you need 7 different apps.
Not to mention series being removed from streaming platforms because of profit: https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/13/westworld-removed-from-hbo...
You can't even rely on being able to access the media you want in the future if you do it legally. It's insane.