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Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by _Algernon_ on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:45AM (#34173075)
I'm getting happier with my decision to embrace piracy again by the minute.

This isn't just true for books. Streaming film/TV is essentially cable TV at this point: you either pay out your arse for all streaming services or you have to constantly micromanage different subscriptions. Even if you are happy with the former, there is no way to centrally browse everything so you need 7 different apps.

Not to mention series being removed from streaming platforms because of profit: https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/13/westworld-removed-from-hbo...

You can't even rely on being able to access the media you want in the future if you do it legally. It's insane.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ndsipa_pomu on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:54AM (#34173174)
Piracy is the answer.

I'm a big fan of old scifi films and series and the more obscure ones are getting harder to track down. Quite a lot of the stuff produced in the early 70s is sometimes available on DVD which can easily be ripped, but it depends on whether it was popular enough for them to issue it.

With some old BBC series, I'm in the position of paying for a license, but not everything is available. Just before Xmas, I was searching for M.R.James Christmas Ghost Story adaptations and whilst I was able to get the newer Mark Gatiss produced ones from iPlayer, the older "Tractate Middoth" isn't available (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03n2rnf).

There's going to be so many lost productions unless pirates get together to hoard old media.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by prox on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:23AM (#34173525)
I think society as a whole should have a long and in depth discussion on piracy in the first place. Piracy in the digital age is a weasel word used by vested interests. For instance datahoarding could be seen as a service to society.

There is no actual pirating going on when you copy a digital file. Now there could be a loss of income if it grows out of control and artists are not being compensated. So obviously the discussion should focus on that.

Steam already solved piracy for gaming. Make it easy to download and manage your games. Apparently the same hasn’t played out for movies and songs on the whole.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by the_af on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:30AM (#34173598)
> There is no actual pirating going on when you copy a digital file

Note we did have this conversation, years if not decades before. Everyone "in the know" already understands this. I bet most HN readers understand this.

It's just that general consumers don't, and there was a successful propaganda campaign by media owners and distributors to label this as "piracy", and the name stuck.

It seems educating users is an uphill battle when fighting against a propaganda campaign by companies with deep pockets.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by throw10920 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:08PM (#34175745)
> There is no actual pirating going on when you copy a digital file.

I can't tell if you're taking the word literally or not. For the sake of argument:

Obviously there is no boat-stealing or plundering involved - no Johnny Depp or kraken here. But separately from whatever meaning you attach to the word "piracy" - illegally downloading creative works is theft. You are not entitled to someone else's creative work under any conditions other than those that they set, period.

Unless an artist explicitly says "here's this public domain artwork, share it however you want" (which some people do!), pirating is stealing - you are taking the work of someone's hands without paying them for it, and it literally doesn't matter if you wouldn't have paid for it in the first place, because the work does not belong to you - it belongs to the creator and they get to set the terms of use.

If you want a game or a TV show or a movie so badly - make it yourself. Put your own effort and time and resources and creative energy into it - then you can set whatever terms you want on its distribution.

Believing that you have the right to take whatever creative work that someone else put their effort into that you can get away with not paying for is one of the most extreme cases of entitlement I've ever witnessed, and it demonstrates an extreme selfishness and lack of respect for other human beings as equals.

I would be very interested to hear what moral axioms could justify the position of "I can take whatever I want from other people as long as it doesn't deprive them of a physical good".

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by slavak on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:40PM (#34176153)
Illegally downloading creative works is most assuredly _not_ theft, according to either the dictionary or the legal definitions, as no possessions are being taken and no one is being deprived of their property. Downloading creative works may or may not constitute copyright infringement; Relabeling it as "theft" is nothing more than a dishonest attempt at re-framing the conversation in a way that maximally benefits corporate interests.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by gknoy on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:17PM (#34176655)
It's similar to theft only in the sense that you get stuff for free without permission.

Before electronic copies, the only way to do that would be to physically steal such a thing. However, if it were possible to make copies of things via magic, without depriving people of such things, I don't think people would consider it theft. In literature, people tended to look on the idea of such things as wonderful miracles, to be celebrated -- feeding a herd of people from only a few fish, or a fairy godmother spinning fancy clothes via magic. No one ever reading Cinderella has ever considered it immoral for the fairy godmother to generate such a thing, and I suspect that most of society would similarly view it as natural and moral to let friends have copies of things that we have.

Imagine being able to say, "Oh, yeah, this desk has perfect ergonomics for me! here's the pattern/recipe and you can print one once you get home", or "oh yeah, I like this TV design way better than my old one, here's how you can make one too" -- in short, we _absolutely_ would download a car, or give someone else a copy of our car.

Now if only we could figure out how to pass value to creators and inventors in a way that isn't threatened by that, or by the advent of inventing-things-via-AI.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by cicko on Thursday December 29, 2022 @03:18PM (#34177378)
You are wrong about copying. It was perfectly normal to photocopy books at schools and universities since these were long out of print, the libraries didn't have enough copies, or whatever other reason, in some areas of the world even before computers.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by joshspankit on Thursday December 29, 2022 @04:58PM (#34178592)
Your points strongly align with my views, and “how to pass value” is why I have been so excited by contract-native blockchains.

I can imagine a world where each creative negotiates their public contract associated with a work, then when the work is released anyone in the world can pay/donate anything they want to the wallet in direct recognition and know without question that every creator will get a fair piece of it.

“Piracy” would be the same as the radio (a convenient way to get exposure), and I suspect that people who do the actual work would see much less drama.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by Izkata on Friday December 30, 2022 @02:17PM (#34188780)
> Before electronic copies, the only way to do that would be to physically steal such a thing.

Or buy a knockoff for cheap.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by spfzero on Thursday December 29, 2022 @05:11PM (#34178717)
As the sibling to yours said, it is closest to forgery or counterfeiting, rather than theft. I don't think that changes it much re. maximally benefiting corporate interests. It might benefit them a little less maximally, but not by much.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by sysmuird on Saturday December 31, 2022 @01:14PM (#34199035)
You’re right. That one time my employer didn’t pay me for 3 pay circles- it wasn’t theft, it was piracy or copyright infringement. Simply a breach in contract.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ddingus on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @09:13PM (#34241082)
Not the same thing.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by survirtual on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:25PM (#34175974)
Nonsense.

When these so called “creatives” (read: administrators) are making billions upon billions nickel and diming every little resemblance to “their work” (read: administrators and investors paying actual creators that lack negotiation skills jack diddly) at the cost of all of society (how far does copyright go these days?), they can stick it.

By pirating, a user is not TAKING something from someone. That is like trying to own an idea and suing people for having the same idea. Digital data is easily duplicated and hurts no one to duplicate. If you wanted to be a twat and micromanage your works, you shouldn’t have digitized it. Go be a traditional oil artist or an opera singer or a circus performer, where in person experiences matter.

If you want all the benefits of the digital world, then suck it up and be ready for digital works to be duplicated.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by spfzero on Thursday December 29, 2022 @05:19PM (#34178825)
That's like saying if we want the benefits of markets, be ready for theft. Society was ready for theft, and so created laws to make it illegal. That way we can have the benefit of a market with a low probability of being robbed on the way home. Seems to work out.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by naniwaduni on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:01PM (#34176431)
I liked the Windows spin it: "You may be a victim of software counterfeiting."

Because they're right, the closest physical equivalent of software "piracy" isn't stealing, which takes the existing item and deprives someone of it, it's forgery, which creates a new "copy" of the item that certainly doesn't have the right provenance and incidentally might, possibly, differ in functional characteristics as well. It devalues legitimate copies of the item in the same ways that counterfeiting does, not the way that theft does.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by _Algernon_ on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:25PM (#34176741)
While you do disclaim that no stealing occurs when pirating at the start of your post, you do not internalize what that means throughout the rest of your comment. This is evident throughout the rest of your comment through your continued choice of using the word "take". No "taking" occurs by making a copy of a file.

Stealing is bad for a specific reason: it's a zero sum game. If you are to benefit from stealing somebody else has to lose something. Stealing is parasitism (benefiting while harming someone else) on other people / society. But if I could magically create a copy of something you own (e.g. your TV), and we both keep our own copy, there is nothing morally wrong with that, even if there are arbitrary laws that make it illegal.

Piracy is closer to the second case. Me making a copy of a file does not limit others from using that file. It is not a zero sum game. It's commensalism (benefiting without harming or benefiting anyone else), not parasitism. Morally it is at worst neutral.

Not to mention that copyright hasn't been a thing for the wast majority of human history and we did just fine. Standing up to arbitrary, unjust laws is a moral good.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by berniedurfee on Thursday December 29, 2022 @05:18PM (#34178807)
Wouldn’t cloning a TV deprive the manufacturer (and all associated parties) of revenue?

Doesn’t copying a digital work without consent deprive the creator (and all associated parties) of revenue?

Isn’t deliberately depriving a person or persons of remuneration for their work stealing?

The laws against making digital copies of a work without the consent of the rights holder are not arbitrary. They’re in place to ensure those who invested time and money into creating something can earn money from the thing they create.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by _Algernon_ on Thursday December 29, 2022 @06:26PM (#34179511)
>Wouldn’t cloning a TV deprive the manufacturer (and all associated parties) of revenue?

>Doesn’t copying a digital work without consent deprive the creator (and all associated parties) of revenue?

Depriving of revenue is not stealing, as I outlined in my previous post. The author still has access to their work, and the ability to sell it if there is sufficient demand. If something was stolen, neither of those are the case.

>Isn’t deliberately depriving a person or persons of remuneration for their work stealing?

No, as I outlined clearly in my previous comment. If this were true I could ask you for $100, you could refuse, and that would be theft because you "deprive me of revenue". This would be ridiculous for obvious reasons.

>The laws against making digital copies of a work without the consent of the rights holder are not arbitrary. They’re in place to ensure those who invested time and money into creating something can earn money from the thing they create.

You might have had a case here if copyright ended with the death of the author and was limited to a reasonable time frame within the lifespan of an author, but this has not been the case for a long time. Copyright in the US is up to 70 years after the authors death. That is an arbitrary and unjust law that only benefits mega corps. Hence it is morally right to stand against the law through civil disobedience.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by berniedurfee on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:46AM (#34184939)
I just can’t accept that depriving someone of revenue for hard work (toil, stress, exhaustion, etc.) isn’t stealing.

The act of people stealing the work is a clear demonstration of sufficient demand, no? If the price is too high or supply too low, that doesn’t excuse theft. It never has.

Wage theft is stealing. If I tell you I’ll paint your house for $100 and then paint your house and you don’t pay me, that’s theft, which is stealing.

Piracy is equivalent to wage theft, which is stealing. A bunch of people did a bunch of work and ask that people pay for the output of their labor. Those who decide to take that output without paying are stealing. They are thieves.

The length of copyright laws is a separate matter. Yeah, they protect major artists and labels with millions, but they also protect small artists who live off their work.

If you take a digital copy of something for free that you should have paid for, you are not a pirate and you are not Robin Hood, you are a thief. The same as someone who walks into a store and steals or snatches a purse off a park bench.

I’ve been seeing people deflect morality over stealing digital copies for most of my life and it’s always amazed me how it’s the only act of thievery that people openly discuss and brag about.

Somehow stealing copies of art is okay, but stealing cars is not.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by feanaro on Sunday January 01, 2023 @05:01AM (#34205103)
> I’ve been seeing people deflect morality over stealing digital copies for most of my life and it’s always amazed me how it’s the only act of thievery that people openly discuss and brag about.

Maybe you should try considering why this is so. Perhaps it's not actually thievery?

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by zoklet-enjoyer on Thursday December 29, 2022 @03:08PM (#34177266)
If I "steal" a production that was made in the 1970s, so what? Who am I hurting?
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by hattori31 on Friday December 30, 2022 @05:45AM (#34183815)
Corporations that have long outlived the original creator and cry about you not paying them. The horror!
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by berniedurfee on Thursday December 29, 2022 @05:08PM (#34178694)
I agree with this. Theft of digital copies is still theft.

Someone made something with the intention of selling _copies_ of said thing.

Taking a copy for free deprives the creator (or the rights owner) of revenue. That is stealing.

Yeah it’s often exceedingly inconvenient or sometimes impossible to legally obtain a copy of a movie, song, book or software. But that still doesn’t justify stealing a copy.

The availability of copies of digital products to you is at the discretion of the rights holder. You don’t get to decide that you now have the right to take a free copy.

If you decide to take a free copy of a digital product without the rights holder’s consent, you are stealing, which is wrong, no matter how much you want the thing or how expensive or difficult it is to obtain.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by richardatlarge on Thursday December 29, 2022 @06:14PM (#34179397)
Not so simple; how many times have I been told by someone they won’t buy my book, they’ll check it out from the library. This is not theft or piracy, but it’s taking the total value of something without compensation to the creator
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by throw10920 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:36PM (#34181830)
This is absurd. Libraries are a legal construct that artists accept in order to provide a tradeoff between profit and benefit to society, the library still purchases copies of the work, and as those copies wear out over time and new ones need to be purchase, an individual is still indirectly and effectively paying a small amount to the artist (although, again, even if they weren't it wouldn't matter, because the creator agreed to the terms of the library, unlike with digital theft). They're not remotely comparable to piracy.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by josephcsible on Friday December 30, 2022 @12:36AM (#34182171)
> the creator agreed to the terms of the library

Really? When/where?

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by Popeyes on Friday December 30, 2022 @06:09AM (#34183981)
Check your contracts with the publisher of your book.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by josephcsible on Friday December 30, 2022 @01:43PM (#34188351)
Can you link to an example of such a contract? And besides, I thought the First Sale Doctrine meant that no matter what your contract said, once the book was sold that the copyright holder didn't have any say over that copy of it anymore.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by berniedurfee on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:46PM (#34192532)
I’ve always wondered about this. In need to do some Googling, unless someone knows the answer.

Are libraries entitled to loan any book on the market? Do they need permission? Do they ever provide compensation?

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by josephcsible on Saturday December 31, 2022 @01:50PM (#34199431)
> Are libraries entitled to loan any book on the market? Do they need permission? Do they ever provide compensation?

My understanding is the answers are yes, no, and nothing besides the normal purchase price of the book.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by richardatlarge on Friday December 30, 2022 @02:07AM (#34182664)
Amd no comparison was made to piracy
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by akomtu on Thursday December 29, 2022 @07:43PM (#34180164)
I'd be more receptive to copyright if it was the rightful creators who owned rights, and investors could only lease limited rights from the owner. Instead, the capital owners have written the law, and the creators are lucky to get pennies from sale of their work. I see no reason to pay to corp C who bought "rights" from corp B who bought rights from corp A who strongarmed a bookwriter into a one-sided contract where the corp gets all the rights. Taking from robbers isn't theft, it's rightful redistribution of knowledge in our society.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by drakonka on Friday December 30, 2022 @07:24AM (#34184386)
This is a convenient assumption for those who choose to pirate. Even if we assume that it's appropriate to dictate what kinds of contracts artists should or shouldn't enter into with publishers and whether you think they're "strongarmed" or not, this specific scenario only really holds water if you take the time to confirm whether the structure you describe is the one being used in practice before pirating the work.

Self-publishing is growing year over year. More and more authors are publishing their own work on platforms where they get 70% (in case of KDP)-100% (in case of direct sales) royalties. Along with the time to write the actual thing this also usually involves paying out of pocket for things like editors and covers. If you're genuinely committed to this scenario you're describing, I hope you check whether you're actually "taking from robbers" or taking from the author who created the book you're enjoying.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by hattori31 on Friday December 30, 2022 @05:43AM (#34183800)
It might be entitlement. But I dont f*cking care anymore.

Having to manage 7 subscription services for the 5 movies I watch per month and having to divide by zero to transfer my files from one device to another is hell.

I don't buy digital goods anymore, except games. And you know why? Because everything is on steam and available with one click.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by kennend3 on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:42AM (#34184895)
> But separately from whatever meaning you attach to the word "piracy" - illegally downloading creative works is theft.

Can you look up the legal definition of theft in your country and post it.

Here's mine (Canada)

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-322.ht...

" 322 (1) Every one commits theft who fraudulently and without colour of right takes, or fraudulently and without colour of right converts to his use or to the use of another person, anything, whether animate or inanimate, with intent

(a) to deprive, temporarily or absolutely, the owner of it, or a person who has a special property or interest in it, of the thing or of his property or interest in it;

(b) to pledge it or deposit it as security;

(c) to part with it under a condition with respect to its return that the person who parts with it may be unable to perform; or

(d) to deal with it in such a manner that it cannot be restored in the condition in which it was at the time it was taken or converted. "

Please outline how downloading a movie meets that definition.

I'm not advocating piracy, but lets stop with the "theft" rhetoric which clearly it fails to meet the legal definition.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by jeddy3 on Friday December 30, 2022 @04:05PM (#34190077)
I can absolutely see that piracy could fit under (a).

"to deprive the owner of it" it being copyright

They have the right over copies, and to make money from it if they choose.

Are you hung up on that it has to be some physical object?

Edit: to be clear, in this reasoning, the thing deprived from someone is not your copy of the movie, but rather the right of copying.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ddingus on Sunday January 01, 2023 @01:18PM (#34208986)
It is not theft.

You really need to use the right word, and that word is infringement.

Theft requires someone somewhere be denied something they own and that does not happen when an unauthorized copy is performed.

Using the right words might lead us to better laws we all can live with. Starting with the wrong ones will continue to hurt everyone.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by snapplebobapple on Monday January 02, 2023 @10:46PM (#34227355)
>Obviously there is no boat-stealing or plundering involved - no Johnny Depp or kraken here. But separately from whatever meaning you attach to the word "piracy" - illegally downloading creative works is theft. You are not entitled to someone else's creative work under any conditions other than those that they set, period.

Well, you've bought into the lie. It is not theft because you are not depriving the original owner of it. it's breach of contract at the very most and it's an incredibly harmful to society contract that will likely never be fixed legally because entrenched interested have too much invested in keeping that system broken and abusing monopoly to rent seek excess profits from the masses.

Believing that you have the right to deprive me of the fruits of my own labor copying something is one of the most extreme cases of entitlement I've ever witnessed. No one is taking anything from anyone. The creator of the work still has their own copy of their work. People are spending their own effort making copies of data released into the wild by the creator and that's it.

Further, the economics of any particular created work where the marginal cost of copying is effectively zero are incredibly clear. The largest welfare improvement is from distributing that created work to everyone for the marginal cost (aka zero) and allowing everyone to create derivative works if they choose. The only reason to have any sort of copyright is to encourage additional works to be created and that should be tempered to the minimum time needed given the massive dead weight loss from distributing said works at above marginal cost. So, how long does a copyright term need to be to encourage new works? I am extremely skeptical of any claim beyond high single digit numbers of years and it is extremely clear that copyright terms measured in decades (or worse in author's life time plus decades) cause massive dead weight loss and are utter insanity.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by abenga on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @08:47AM (#34231216)
My rule is I try to pay you, and if you refuse my money, I get it elsewhere. If a movie is in cinemas in my home town, I will pay to watch. Netflix accepts my money, so I pay them every month. Disney, HBO, Hulu, etc. do not (they do not operate in my country), so I do not feel any guilt watching their media by "some other means". After all, I'm not depriving you of any revenue if you don't want any revenue from me to begin with.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by michaelcampbell on Sunday January 01, 2023 @08:01AM (#34205964)
> Steam already solved piracy for gaming. Make it easy to download and manage your games.

Honest question, if Steam suddenly ceases to be, are these downloaded games playable?

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by freeCandy on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:52AM (#34215822)
If the game itself doesn't implement some sort of mandatory Steam login or DRM, then it's as easy as finding and running the executable from the downloaded game files.

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/1355117576985...

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by raffraffraff on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:22AM (#34173501)
I grabbed those old M.R.James Christmas Ghost Stories years ago (no idea where I downloaded them from but they were obviously rips from fairly recent BBC broadcasts). BBC used to have an online shop where you could buy things legitimately but they shut it down. No idea why.

Tractate Middoth adaptation is awful Gatiss tripe. (He's so hit-and-miss, and this is a miss for me). It's also on YouTube:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5MlQgGu6nCU

My favorite of those M R.James adaptations, by far, is A View From A Hill. It's on YouTube.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lGh0ybk-xyk

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ndsipa_pomu on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:16AM (#34174145)
I agree about Gatiss. I really enjoyed the original 1972 version of "The Amazing Mr Blunden" and was excited to see it getting remade last year (by Gatiss) but it was just meh.

I went on a scavenge hunt for M.R. James productions after catching Robert Lloyd Parry's (https://www.nunkie.co.uk/the-mr-james-project) reading of two stories in the basement of Bristol Cathedral. I've got hold of A View From A Hill but haven't seen it yet. Incidentally, I did enjoy the recent Count Magnus.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by majkinetor on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:58AM (#34173217)
You can literarry find everything, but for rarest stuff you need to search for dedicated private commune.

FYI: https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5940948

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ndsipa_pomu on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:08AM (#34173336)
Thank you, kind stranger, but I've already sailed across the pira-seas and have obtained a copy. My point was that as a BBC license fee payer (for many years), I have paid for that programme to be produced and by all rights it should be available on iPlayer.

(I'm not even going to mention the complete rights cluster-duck that is Monkey Dust (and yes, I've already got a copy of all the series))

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by TedDoesntTalk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:23AM (#34173522)
Can you name some of the obscure 70s sci-fi? I would like to watch them. My downloads are TV series for Logan’s Run, Planet of the Apes, Battlestar Galactica, etc, but it’s limited and probably not too obscure and also… American besides the 70s Doctor Who saved Survivors (was that 80s?)
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ndsipa_pomu on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:31AM (#34174327)
The TV series of Logan's Run and Planet of the Apes are reasonably obscure because they weren't too popular (I've got hold of both them, by the way).

Some other titles to pique your interest:

1981 BBC version of The Day of the Triffids

1979 Tales of the Unexpected (not scifi really)

1979 Sapphire & Steel (with the most annoying introduction - they are not elements!)

1979 Quatermass series

1979 The Omega Factor

1978 Blake's 7 (should not really count as obscure due to the impact the series had)

1977 The Fantastic Journey

1977 Children of the Stones

1977 Beasts (anthology series by Nigel Kneale)

1975 Sky

1975 The Invisible Man (really cheesy, featuring David McCallum)

1975 The Changes

1974 Zodiac

1973 The Tomorrow People

1970 Timeslip

1969 The Owl Service

1968 The Champions

1966 The Time Tunnel

1966 Mission: Impossible

1965 Out of the Unknown

1960 The Strange World of Gurney Slade

1958 Quatermass and the Pit mini-series

1955 Quatermass II

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by sys_64738 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:28PM (#34176775)
BBC version of the Triffids is legendary in my book. Don't forget 1975 BBC show Survivors.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by TedDoesntTalk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @03:17PM (#34177365)
I had to buy The Survivors on DVD because no one was seeding it, and no one was streaming it, either. I wonder how common that is for obscure TV shows?

Where do you find these seeded? I only know about Pirate Bay and 1337x.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ndsipa_pomu on Thursday December 29, 2022 @07:42PM (#34180151)
I found season 1 of The Survivors easily enough, although it looks like season 3 might be available as well. I use prowlarr (https://wiki.servarr.com/en/prowlarr) which searches a big list of various sites and integrates easily enough with qbittorrent.

There's a handful of old British TV that I've bought on DVD because I couldn't find anyone seeding it.

(Just bought the three seasons of Survivor on DVD now)

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by TedDoesntTalk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:36PM (#34181832)
Thanks for the prowlarr tip. Enjoy The Survivors! I did.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ndsipa_pomu on Thursday December 29, 2022 @07:34PM (#34180092)
I do happen to be a John Wyndham fan and try to track down adaptations, and yes, the BBC one is the best (I remember watching it when it was first aired). The newer remake with Eddie Izzard was disappointing. I'm often surprised that his stories don't get more adaptations - where's Kraken Wakes and The Chrysalids? (Chocky was made into a good kids TV series back in the day).

I hadn't heard of Survivors, but that looks right up my street. I used to be massively into Doctor Who and the Terry Nation novels. I can only find the first season easily.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by Popeyes on Friday December 30, 2022 @06:11AM (#34183993)
Have you tried BritBox? Some of those shows are available legally on there.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ndsipa_pomu on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:00AM (#34195330)
No, I haven't tried it. Being a subscription service, it kind of proves my point that even BBC shows financed via the TV license payers (including me) are now being locked behind paywalls and the more obscure ones will just disappear. (To make that list I just pulled some titles from my TV series library, so I don't need to locate any of them).
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by gamaralf on Monday January 02, 2023 @10:34AM (#34218971)
Two more entries for your really nice list:

1976 Gemini Man [another Invisible Man adaptation]

1976 Star Maidens

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by majkinetor on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:34AM (#34173639)
Sure, its a scam, like bunch of other things.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ndsipa_pomu on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:36AM (#34174400)
Just the other day, I've been searching for the Open University video of "Hotel Hilbert" from 1996: https://www.open.ac.uk/library/digital-archive/program/video...

Can't find that anywhere though I was hopeful that BFI might have had a copy: https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b80e92d21

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by clnq on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:05PM (#34176487)
And for most non-English books and movies, good luck buying them anywhere in the English-speaking world.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by Popeyes on Friday December 30, 2022 @06:05AM (#34183953)
I assume you have already found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MlQgGu6nCU

I have been told that the BBC have a massive digital vault of shows that are available to producers obviously since iPlayer came into being any shows listed are there, just not available. And they are constantly archiving old material.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by qwertfisch on Friday December 30, 2022 @11:02AM (#34186245)
Doesn't the BBC offer a service where you can request recordings of any historic broadcast?

The German public-service broadcasters like ARD, ZDF and many regional ones offer such a service. I can request a program from the 70ies, tell the name and (helpfully) where and when it was broadcasted. Then they search through their massive archive, make a copy on DVD and send them to you. It's not cheap (up to 40€ per hour of program), but it is legal for personal use. No need here to pirate anything, except very very old broadcasts from before ... around 1967.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by bacchusracine on Friday December 30, 2022 @11:29AM (#34186552)
>I'm a big fan of old scifi films and series and the more obscure ones are getting harder to track down.

Gets even harder when you're dealing with hearing loss and it's nearly impossible to find subtitles for some older releases, despite there having been such when they were available....even for some non-obscure stuff. Some stuff is sitting in streaming-rights purgatory, the last release was on DVD and no one has it any more, etc etc...

The people at OpenSubtitles.org do their best to curate a good collection but those are only as good as the people who upload them.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by majkinetor on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:50AM (#34173132)
In the meantime:

    1. Rarbg or rutracker to dwn anything in minutes
    2. mpv to watch anything in minutes with subtitles and bunch of flexible options that propriatery or FOSS tools like plex can only dream to have
    3. enjoy life without commercials ever and hord stuff if you want it and pay for things after the fact
For books replace 1. with libgen and 2. with calibre reader.

Yes, its 100x easier.

Games could be in some cases easier to buy, especially since you realy must test those for viruses and other malcious stuff, not something you should be concerned with multimedia.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by _Algernon_ on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:26AM (#34173556)
Since I game on Linux, Steam provides enough value since most games with Proton are one-click install. Don't use other stores though.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by majkinetor on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:36AM (#34173666)
Steam provides something else too - up to date and patched games for latest systems. Its hard to follow those otherwise.

However, I am sure it will turn out to be scam one day and you will lose access to all/most games you bought.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by the_af on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:35AM (#34173658)
Steam+Proton is magical these days, I have no problem supporting creators and buying their games.

With Steam, GOG and Humble Bundle, it's never been easier to game on Linux. It feels like paradise.

In a way, gaming is in much better shape (re: convenience) than streaming TV shows these days. Yes, DRM for online play can be problematic for Proton -- but fuck those games!

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by deckard1 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:09PM (#34175773)
Lutris makes it easy to install GOG and Epic store games as well. Epic has been giving away a lot of games the past year or two, so it's a great option for Linux. Amazon Prime also gives away games that usually redeem on GOG or other stores. Great time to be a patient gamer. I have a huge, 100% legal collection of games that were all free thanks to these stores competing to build up their reputation.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by helloworld11 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:38AM (#34173689)
is rutracker relatively secure for torrent downloads?
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ndsipa_pomu on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:49AM (#34174568)
If you're download tv or books, then you should be okay as you won't be executing anything. I wouldn't trust software pirated from there (or other places).
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by bogomipz on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:55AM (#34174647)
Are books and video generally low probability as attack vectors then? Are PDFs harder to exploit?
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by majkinetor on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:56PM (#34175594)
Ofcourse they are. Majority of that stuff isn't executable, or if it is, it relies on exploits of viewers, so by using something else you are probably safe.

Also, there are sandboxes if you are unsure and you can convert to safer formats.

Anyway, I yet have to meet somebody that was fucked up this way, I guess there are numerious easier options.

Its way more probably that your country will hunt you, if you live in that lame country in which case VPN is a thing :)

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by layer8 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:32PM (#34176064)
Adobe Acrobat (Reader) opens PDFs from download locations in “Protected View” by default, which disables potentially dangerous dynamic features, and also by default opens all PDFs in a “Protected Mode” sandbox which restricts otherwise possible system access. You want to make sure that those are active. I believe that’s on Windows only, not sure what the implications are on other systems.

Without those restrictions, PDFs can execute embedded JavaScript on open, which can access and execute local files.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by auggierose on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:52PM (#34176310)
Preview on a Mac doesn't execute JavaScript in PDFs. To make sure you are not spreading anything to anyone, open the PDF in Preview and print it.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by majkinetor on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:55PM (#34177115)
Same thing with Word.

Not sure how ebook readers handle js or xml exploits.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by DoItToMe81 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:36PM (#34175286)
I have used Rutracker for almost ten years without one bit of malware.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by majkinetor on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:54PM (#34175572)
You can use Windows sandbox or Sandboxie to test it out and do a sanity check, but in general, yes, it seesm OK. You never know though, given the current state of afairs in the world.

On the other hand, you can find almost anything there, faaar more then on most other places.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by bogomipz on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:48AM (#34174557)
Regarding 2, what is MPV here?
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by _Algernon_ on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:58AM (#34174696)
Probably this: https://mpv.io/
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by majkinetor on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:53PM (#34175553)
Or, use SMPlayer, the nice x-platform frontend: https://www.smplayer.info/

It has awesome integration with open subtitles and remembers everything you do on a video so if it crashes or you stop, it just continues with everything set like volume, position subtitle sync etc.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by Izkata on Friday December 30, 2022 @02:24PM (#34188874)
smplayer is/started as a frontend for mplayer, but it looks like you can set it to use mpv as its backend.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by layer8 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:25PM (#34175977)
Unfortunately libgen is pretty hit-or-miss for me, especially for fairly recent, or non-English, or pre-digital-age (badly scanned, if at all present) publications, or stuff like ISO standards.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by auggierose on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:48PM (#34176262)
There is a torrent of all ISO standards out there somewhere.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by layer8 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:04PM (#34176465)
Presumably with some cutoff date?
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by satvikpendem on Friday December 30, 2022 @02:40AM (#34182838)
You might be interested in this then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34176479
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by layer8 on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:18AM (#34185179)
Z-Library, while larger than LibGen, is still very incomplete as well.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by borbulon on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:40AM (#34173700)
> or you have to constantly micromanage different subscriptions.

To me that's the killer app right now, one-place-to-toggle-them-all, with a running tally of what you're paying this month. Unfortunately streaming companies have no vested interest in making it easier for people to turn on and off their subscriptions, so even if it could be done it'd be a constant arms race.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by andsoitis on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:17AM (#34174154)
You can pause your subscription at Netflix or Disney+.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by 404mm on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:57AM (#34173207)
Also worth mentioning, Plex UI and UX is so much better than any of the apps I’m paying subscription fees to (7 currently!!!).

To pile up onto your example of Westworld, I was super annoyed when I subscribed to AMC+ to catch up on The Walking Dead, just to find out that only last few episodes of current season are available and since I was waiting for more to air, I am now SOL.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by majkinetor on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:00AM (#34173227)
no no no no no no... its all shit really. You can't really expect that "lets have everything here" tools get into tiny details of specialized tools.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by walthamstow on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:45AM (#34174538)
One beautiful bit of the Plex UX is having the clock time in the top right corner of the HUD in the player. It's very convenient and I don't think any other service (in the UK) has it.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by eulers_secret on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:54AM (#34174644)
Posting here to plug jellyfin (and swiftfin in TestFlight) - it’s really nice to have a full FOSS option on the AppleTV/iPhone.

My issue with Plex is their unceasing dark patterns and attempts to monetize users. Forcing centralized accounts and constantly re-pinning their “value add” channels made me leave them. Also eroded my trust with them, I wouldn’t be shocked to learn that they log all the media I watch in their app…

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by 404mm on Thursday December 29, 2022 @04:07PM (#34177928)
I like Jellyfin for what it is. I actually switched from Jellyfin to Plex recently because of frequent issues with crashing transcoder (the issue may have been on my side) and inability to download content for offline use on the phone or tablet. As far as the organization itself, I liked it more than Plex.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ClassyJacket on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:02AM (#34173262)
Don't forget that you don't even know which streaming service something is on. Americans will tweet something is on HBO or Peacock or whatever, but where the hell is it in Australia?

And Amazon is now doing this shady thing where the subscription includes every episode except the hold the last episode of each season hostage and make you buy it separately.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by j1elo on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:30PM (#34175196)
> Don't forget that you don't even know which streaming service something is on [...] where the hell is it in Australia?

I think your best bet would be to just use a website like https://www.justwatch.com/au

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by sergiotapia on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:54AM (#34173176)
Butchered It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia (we all know why) on streaming platforms. My pirated version is still the original hilarious versions.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ttyprintk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:17AM (#34173450)
I didn’t know this. I’m sure they chopped a half dozen episodes out. Did the network edit and re-release more than that?
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by delecti on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:13AM (#34174108)
The Google TV app (at least on Android) can show where everything is, and will even link directly to it in another app if you've got it installed. You can also buy/rent things that aren't available for streaming anywhere, or even just not anywhere you're subscribed. As someone who has come to terms with having too many subscriptions and their apps installed, it works great for me.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by zie on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:27PM (#34175122)
> there is no way to centrally browse everything so you need 7 different apps.

The Apple TV App (on iOS/iPadOS) does this. It even links you directly to the show in the app, assuming you have a valid subscription on that app. If it's not streamable, you can almost always "buy" or rent it.

It's not perfect, but it's the best there is that I'm aware of.

I basically agree with everything else you said.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by Grimm665 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:31PM (#34175201)
Pirate streams of NHL hockey games seem to come from the source before it goes to the networks who overlay it with additional scoreboards, scores of other games, and other junk on the screen. When they cut to commercial, it goes to a sequence of black and white slow motion footage of ice and rink preparation. It looks like the placeholder that the networks then put their ads on top of during breaks.

Why is it not possible to pay for this version of the stream? Even if I sign up for ESPN through Comcast or whatever hoops I have to jump through to access live sports, I still get the version with the ads and screen junk. Pirate streams are higher def and just more pleasant to watch. Sometimes you can even choose streams with no commentation at all, just the sounds of the sport. Where are these options in the paid streaming service?

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by SoftTalker on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:04PM (#34175703)
> Why is it not possible to pay for this version of the stream?

Because they want both your money and ad money.

I don't know why people ever accepted advertising on pay cable TV. Pay to watch ads?

Ads made sense on over-the-air broadcast because there was no way to earn revenue from that other than a BBC-style "license" tax that wouldn't really fly in the US (though we do have NPR so...)

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by yonaguska on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:09PM (#34175774)
I never buy e-books unless they include it with the purchase of a dead tree book. If I'm going to pirate a book, I'll at least buy the paper copy to support the author and publisher. For all other media, excluding games because steam is so easy, piracy it is.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by drakonka on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:45PM (#34176216)
This is an interesting approach since you're likely paying more to buy the paper copy than you would to buy the ebook. This seems like it would be a pretty uncommon practice. However, as a self-published writer, knowing there are people like you out there is encouragement for me to release paperback versions despite the additional initial expense of paperback covers.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by E39M5S62 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @04:17PM (#34178077)
I exclusively buy physical books and then pirate the ebook. If I'm going to own a book, I'm going to OWN the book. Reading on a proper e-ink device is just too nice to give up, though.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by qwertfisch on Friday December 30, 2022 @11:13AM (#34186371)
But then you use a service (reading a digital version) which you did not pay for. You only paid for the paper version.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by TheHappyOddish on Thursday January 05, 2023 @08:39PM (#34269823)
That's morally acceptable for me and probably for the GP.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by themadturk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @05:06PM (#34178671)
Many ebooks are surprisingly expensive these days, often costing more than the paper copy, at least on Amazon. Since I'm a Kindle owner, that's where I buy ebooks...and later strip DRM so I can actually own what I've purchased.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by TheHappyOddish on Thursday January 05, 2023 @08:40PM (#34269832)
For what it's worth, I do the same and I have multiple friends who also do this. We also buy band t-shirts and pirate music.

Lots of people want to support the artist and have a convenient system.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by rowanG077 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @03:59PM (#34177853)
This is the reason why I don't feel bad about piracy. If you as a company can't even approach the comfyness of piracy while your app is the flick of a finger away to open you have failed.
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by joshspankit on Thursday December 29, 2022 @04:45PM (#34178441)
Netflix could have done it. We all watched as piracy freed people from the nonsense rules of cable and DVDs (inconvenient times, waiting for releases, region locks to name a few)...

And then Netflix solved a lot of those problems for a reasonable price.

And then through paying attention to the goldmine of watch data, they did it even better than piracy.

We knew that the licensing model would catch people off-guard eventually, but for a time they had actually solved it.

Then, they lost the contracts.

And media companies saw them as competitors instead of partners.

And Netflix brought back region locks (some not their fault, but some that was).

And the prices started to go up in chorus with the anti-consumer practices.

And now we’re back to the fragmented battleground that was cable TV.

And the book industry has somehow stayed just as bad the whole time, in many ways more draconian than Hollywood...

Maybe next time the pendulum swings back in favour of the consumers, we’ll end up with better contracts so we can avoid this sort thing as it swings over to producers again.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by richardatlarge on Thursday December 29, 2022 @06:09PM (#34179364)
Yes, ironic that the breakdown of the Netflix monopoly will create such a scattering of services that piracy is a solution
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by ymolodtsov on Friday December 30, 2022 @01:19AM (#34182417)
Who said you need to watch ALL streaming services?
Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by jesuscript on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:27AM (#34194925)
I’ve been feeling the same. I wanted to watch about 5 or some movies this year that were a) not available on any streaming platform, b) only available on one specific streaming platform exclusively (which I didn’t have a sub to), c) You straight up could not purchase it on YouTube/Amazon/ITunes.

I’m not playing this game.

Re:Tell HN: It's easier and faster to pirate an e-book, than... by Valakas_ on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @01:15AM (#34228369)
I understand that different companies may want a part of the pie, and that's fine. Competition is good. But for us consumers, there should be a central place, where we can find everything, and they those companies that offer shows can still compete with each other somehow. The problem is devising such a system.