> Are cheques even used for anything except for fraud anymore?

Based on the cheques spelling I guess you're not in the US.

Checks are very common here, I write them every month. In theory I could pay my water bill by credit card but their payment portal is so randomly broken that I save a ton of headache by writing a check and dropping it off at their payment box. My office lease only takes checks. Various other rentals mainly only take checks or they charge a fee so I save money by giving them a check. Anything government-related is either a check or a big additional fee, so again I write them a check to avoid giving away extra money for no reason.

Checks are actually super convenient and more trustworthy than most alternatives. When paying, sending a check costs me a stamp which is far less than the credit card fees most places charge, or sometimes I can drop it off for free.

When receiving one, in most places it can be deposited by just taking a photo, doesn't get easier than that. Most importantly, I don't get to be another victim of the "$PAYMENT_PROCESSOR froze my account and stole my money", whether it be paypal or any of the other ones.

> When receiving one, in most places it can be deposited by just taking a photo, doesn't get easier than that. Most importantly, I don't get to be another victim of the "$PAYMENT_PROCESSOR froze my account and stole my money", whether it be paypal or any of the other ones.

If only there was a way for people to transfer money from their bank to someone else's bank... They could call it "bank transfer", and it would solve all these problems!

> They could call it "bank transfer", and it would solve all these problems!

Yes, it is ACH, which is what a check is. One doesn't need to physically have the piece of paper to make it happen (which is why you can deposit a check with just a photo). Either way it's just ACH.

I live in the UK and if a business or person wants to receive money, they just give out a bank account number (6 + 8 digits) and name. This number can't be used to withdraw cash, deposit cash or paper checks, or any other purpose. It doesn't get more convenient than that. Pretty much every other country works the same, except the US.

I have a rental condo and have to send monthly payments to the property management company for things like HOA dues. The property management company doesn’t know how to send out a plain text email. Every email is a Word document followed by a jpeg of the Word document. There’s literally no text in the email so I can’t copy/paste things like the call-in number for the monthly meeting.

This same company strongly encourages us to use their “payment portal” to pay our HOA dues. They, of course, charge an extra few percent on every transaction. That’s annoying, but given their inability to properly operate email, I can’t imagine how insecure their payment processing is. Even if they’re using some third party system, they probably have it configured incorrectly. So yeah, it’s a check in the mail every month.

The concept of a Home Owners Association (I had to google it) is a pretty American one too, so it seems fitting to pay it via cheque.

Is "direct debit" not a thing in the US?

All of my regular bills in the UK (mortgage, energy, water, internet, insurance, debt, probably some others I'm forgetting) are deducted automatically from my bank account every month. I don't have to think about it all - and there's zero possibility of nuking my credit score by accidentally missing a payment.

Having to remember to write a check for each bill every month sounds like an enormous (and enormously unnecessary) inconvenience. Is there really not a better option in the world's richest country in 2022?

Because of the quirks of the US banking system, my personal philosophy is that no one gets to pull money from my accounts. I will push payments for my bills to the various providers.

My payments are still done electronically but I have to go into my bank's BillPay service and direct the amounts and payment dates for each bill. It's a bit more work but it also means far fewer surprises or errors to clean up. I already reconcile my accounts on a weekly basis, so it's only an extra minute or two to set up the payments for the coming week.

> All of my regular bills in the UK (mortgage, energy, water, internet, insurance, debt, probably some others I'm forgetting) are deducted automatically from my bank account every month. I don't have to think about it all - and there's zero possibility of nuking my credit score by accidentally missing a payment.

Sometimes, vendors may support doing a recurring ACH transfer out of your account for the total of the month. In terms of mechanism, this is exactly the same as a check which is also just an ACH transfer out of your account. Not all vendors support this.

There is increased risk, however. By giving them blanket authorization to deduct whatever they want out of your bank account you now have the risk that they might get it wrong and deduct too much.

If you have enough money in the account to absorb the difference it'll eventually get sorted out. But what if you don't? Your balance may go to zero and all those other recurring payments get rejected and you'll get hit with tons of late payment fees and you'll be stuck with those. So you might nuke your credit score with all those late payments that weren't even your fault.

My absolute preferred approach is to do auto-pay to a credit card. That way I'm insulated from risk (at least in the US, credit card laws strongly favor the consumer; perhaps the only laws in the US that favor the consumer so well). Any mistakes in the system are not my problem and can't impact my balance.

But for vendors who can't bill to a credit card or charge too many fees to do so, the safest approach is still a check.

Direct debit is available (and is very common) but not all vendors support it. Anecdotally most younger people use automatic methods for recurring payments whenever possible, and write checks for one-off purchases, like paying repairpeople. Older folks write checks for everything because that's what they're used to.

I'm not sure if it's an age thing but I live in the US and am mid-30s. I rarely, if ever, write checks. The only time I interact with checks is as a gift and I'm cashing it. Writing checks is a smell - if I can't use Zelle/Venmo/etc, it's an issue.

> if I can't use Zelle/Venmo/etc, it's an issue.

But by doing that you're imposing the risk to the seller that they may lose their money when paypal/zelle/venmo/etc freeze their account and steal their money (see frequent recurring threads right here on HN of this happening over and over).

I realize as a payer it's not your problem but something to think about.

I've paid rent using cheques to multiple different landlords within that time frame. US and Canada.

I've received money from the Canadian government using cheques in that time frame too, but admittedly you could just special case the government.

I've received prize money from a university run contest during that time frame using cheques (barely in the time frame, small sum of money), and I know others who have received prize from privately run chess tournaments using cheques (I think the latter just because it's a cool souvenir).

I've received refund cheques from big companies. I assume they expect some not to get cashed since they were happy to take my earlier payments online.

One problem with any other form of payment in the US is that there are no useful laws about limiting fees for different payment types, unlike in Europe. So everything paid for with credit cards is now a minimum of 3% more expensive than the listed price. Some places up it to 5% to cover their fees to payment processors like Stripe, Square, et al.

Once a month for the water bill, because the city charges extra to pay online with a card. I think there are rules that say they have to?

A year or two ago when we had a tree service come out to trim some things. Before that, when we had a fence redone. Both of those were smaller local companies.

Here's a question, where you are, does "Direct Debit" exist?

In the UK and here in Australia, when I set up a utility account I get a message saying "why not set up a direct debit?", which means that a transfer goes straight from my account to theirs at the alotted time each month, for the amount of the bill.

You get your usual bill usually a week or two before the debit goes out so you can make sure it's OK well before the transfer, and the debit process is guaranteed to return the money to you in case of a dispute. You can go into your online banking app and cancel any/all direct debit authorisations whenever you like.

We have it, but I don’t trust companies not to fuck it up. I don’t want to allow the 5 or 10 companies I pay monthly fees to to each have the keys to withdraw money from my account. I mean we’ve seen what happens with tech companies like PayPal and how they screw you over. I’m not letting the local electric company have that kind of access to my account! One billing error, hack, or hidden surprise fee, and I could be wiped out.

In Sweden we have direct debit (autogiro), but we also have e-invoice (e-faktura), which I prefer and think it's the best of both worlds: the invoice and the charge are sent electronically to your bank (usually ~3 weeks in advance), and you approve with one click -- scheduling a transfer of that amount on the due date. That gives you the chance to verify if everything is correct before you pay, and does not give the company any permission to withdraw funds from your account.

This is what I usually do: (1) check my bank 1 week before the end of each month, (2) eyeball the amounts for all e-invoices, (3) approve everything with a single click.

One billing error, hack or surprise fee and you’re one phone call from having it reversed under the terms of the direct debit guarantee. In the countries I’ve lived in.

I’m in the US for what that’s worth. What you’ve posited assumes you can get someone on the phone which is no small task these days. Also, keep in mind that something like 60% of Americans are a single surprise $500 expense away from going into debt[0]. (Luckily I’m not one of them.) But generally, it takes weeks to months to get your money back if something like this happens, and that assumes everything goes well, which it rarely does.

[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiemcgrath/2016/01/06/63-of-...

Yeah that does sound like a nightmare.

The UK direct-debit guarantee includes the provision that you must get a full and immediate refund on error, to prevent this sort of thing, and while I'm sure it doesn't always work as smoothly as you'd want, they are very commonly used and not a great source of complaints.

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/businesses/complaints...

That said, fuckups do still happen! https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/07/kent-family...

It's wild this is a concern for you, when this is extremely normal for billions of people.

There are only ~350 million in the US. The others are elsewhere and don’t suffer the same weird banking issues we do. That said, I still pay electronically, I just do it manually. I go to my banking site and enter the amount on my bill, which I’ve checked to make sure it’s accurate.

It exists (USA here, and a smaller local bank), but afaik doesn't have that sort of consumer protections or review/management features.

Yeah. In the US some companies are able to do direct debits via the ACH system. That's how Venmo works under the hood for checking accounts.

I just paid the US State Department via check for passport renewal. Also, I expect to use my checkbook later this year to buy a car. Overall, I probably average 2 checks per year. (though I do expect that to decrease to 0 in the next 5-10 years)

I still pay landscapers, cleaning folks, and a nanny that way

But the butler prefers a bank transfer? :)

The butler and the chef prefer cash

We pay for stuff by check all the time; as a Canadian business with vendors in the US, it tends to be the most convenient and inexpensive way to make payments of significant size. Our bank in the US has a feature where it will mail a check to anyone in the US from your account, free of charge (aside from the funds being sent, obviously). Certainly seems bizarre that sending a physical piece of paper through the mail is free whereas moving some bits around is expensive, but that's how it is!

Most bank accounts in the U.S. have this feature, it’s called “online bill pay.” They do actually pay larger companies (utilities, mortgage, corporate landlords, etc.) via ACH transfer. But for any biller not so set up, they just mail a paper check.

10 years is long, so yes.

But looking at the last 2 years - hardly written any cheques (checks).

But I do receive checks. From mortgage refinancing company, from escrow, from FSA/HSA (probably could get it electronic, but I have failed twice to get this set up, and now I do not even bother), and recently some ROTH conversions since the company refused to do bank transfers any more so they make me receive and deposit checks.

Sure. Buying and selling stuff that's "deplatformed" by Paypal / Zelle / Venmo (nothing illegal, their lists of prohibited items are as long as they are silly). Paying roofers and other local contractors who often aren't set up to take credit cards, especially if you venture outside a major metro area. Paying for a car without financing. Refunds from my own bank.

> Paying for a car without financing

A cheque cheque (not sure what the right name for it is), not a cashiers cheque?

Unless you look sketchy, dealerships take personal checks.

A personal check

(US American spelling)

Local contractors (at least in the Bay Area) take Venmo or Zelle nowdays. Lawyers too.

My council tax refund from my previous council when I moved house this year could only be sent as a cheque. I found this so strange I made an FOI request to try and work out how much additional income the council was making from uncashed chequeues.

Cheques are a very useful and quite secure method of transaction (because all the security work and processing framework to prevent cheque fraud has been in place since the 1970s).

They are slow. That's the point.

They are essentially a two factor method of instruction to your bank. Legally (in Britain at least) one can use any reasonable method to give instructions to ones bank. Banks that want to "phase them out" because they are "too expensive and slow" are derelict in their function and should be hauled over the coals by trade and industry legislators.

I don't think you realize how easy and secure things are in Europe.

Yeah you just enter your recipient's IBAN in your 2FA banking app, and that's it. The transfer gets processed in about a business day.

If you want the "check" experience, you can also fill out that information in a form and hand it to a bank teller.

Yeah and that's the "old" way. We can do it even faster here with local bank transfer, and then instantly with Swish.

We barely have bank outlets let alone tellers here though. That's the downside. Trying to deposit cash or check is quite painful.

Yes, frequently. My rent, water, and electric bills are paid by checks I send through my bank online, and I have hand-written checks to pay various taxes, donations, and the bill for my eye doctor. I receive checks from a tenant to pay rent, from contract work, tax refunds, and reimbursements for stuff I pay for in some of the organisations I belong to.

In fact, counting both my personal accounts and the org account I'm treasurer for, I've probably sent or received two dozen checks just in the last month.

Yes, but even 20 years ago people were incredibly suspicious of checks, and that's only gotten stronger.

I get checks as refunds or payouts from companies a few times a year, and it's weird every time. I gather that they legally have to pay it out and can't just credit your account, but I'd rather they do the credit. It'd be safer for everyone, and if I cancel my account they could just cut a check then.

Yes, but very infrequently:

- The US Treasury sends refund checks and also sent the stimulus checks to me.

- I paid my rent by check when living in Manhattan 9-10 years ago.

When you ain't doing it frequently enough, it's frustrating. (edit: it's more friction given I live outside the states and the bank I have now requires phone-based 2FA to login to the internet bank, but at least it is infrequent enough to not worry too much)

I've never written or deposited a cheque; I don't know that I've even seen one. But checks are alive and well in the US. Contractors like them, I've written them to myself to transfer money between accounts when electronic transfer restrictions are too painful, etc.

You may as well start spelling it the US way, because we'll still be using them ;)

1. I've never written or deposited a cheque; I don't know that I've even seen one.

2. I've written them to myself to transfer money between accounts when electronic transfer restrictions are too painful, etc.

May be I'm confused but it seems a case of either or :)

They've never written a _cheque_, they have written a _check_

>Contractors like them,

Can cheques in USA be cashed out? I mean, can a contractor take a check to any bank and exchange it for cash or do they have to be paid into an account (and money accessed 3-5 days later)?

I only ask because usually contractors want to avoid cards/back transfer did they don't have to declare the income and can do tax fraud.

Back in the 80s in UK you could "cash a cheque" meaning take it to a bank and get cash. Chequebooks then were printed as "crossed cheques" which couldn't be cashed [easily?]. Then by the 90s one wasn't guaranteed to get the money unless a "guarantee card" had its details copied onto the cheque -- for which an imprinting machine was used (still a valid technique about 10 years ago).

Checks can still be cashed in the U.S. either by going to the bank it was written on, or to a “check cashing” place that tends to operate in the poorer section of towns, near pawn shops and rent to own furniture stores. Those places charge rather outrageous fees, but they’re taking fairly large risks of being scammed relative to a bank.

I received my first pay in the US via actual paycheck since I wasn't able to open US bank account in time.

In the U.S., a lot of places that take payments, including state and county government, only take credit card payments through processors that charge additional fees. I've seen as high as 5% with a $50 minimum. But if you pay with a check, no extra charge.

That's bonkers! It costs at least an order of magnitude more to process a cheque than a credit card transaction. And debit cards are even cheaper.

Not in the U.S. The interchange fee alone is at least 1% for a credit card, typical all-in fee to the merchant is 2-4%. Checks cost almost nothing in comparison.

That's what the processors charge, not what it costs them.

In the last couple years, I used to use checks pretty frequently to transfer between my personal and business bank accounts with different banks. It was the easiest way to do it without fees and was reasonably quick (used mobile deposit).

I still get cheque payments from various government departments for rebates. My most recent one was a £3 cheque for an overpayment when renewing my driver's license by postal order... That was an arcane transaction.

For example in Spain they are the de facto payment method for real estate purchases, even though most people have not even seen a check in their lives.

I write a check to my landlady every month and deposit it in her account. It's the most straightforward way to pay rent in this particular case.

Yes, we pay for a yard service a few times a year to do some bigger projects and they only accept checks. Sadly, not everyone has moved digitally

yes.

Edit in case a simple answer is viewed as stifling discourse: I probably write around 20 checks per year. Mostly to local vendors/laborers or for youth fundraising activities. I receive checks for fundraising activities that I host. Venmo is basically the same, and getting more common.

I have to pay my water bill with one!

Incredibly common with B2B payments yes.

Yes