News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by efields on Thursday December 01, 2022 @03:06PM (#33821964)
The exchange is NFT for eth. In order to do that, it requires gas. That is a fee imposed on the user, meaning they have to pay something in order to pursue a digital transaction for digital goods. Payments in iOS for digital goods and services must go through the App Store. It's right there in the developer terms, and has largely not changed since the App Store was introduced.

Doesn't matter that it's gas. It's a purchase the user is trying to make. The rules apply.

Coinbase may think it's unfair, but that's what they agreed to when they put the app in the App Store. Apple can continue to enforce this rule as long as they're legally allowed to, which doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon.

No sympathy for Coinbase here. They chose to whine in public when they could just sue Apple like a grown up.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by colordrops on Thursday December 01, 2022 @03:09PM (#33821998)
Public visibility helps their case by both pressuring apple and getting customers on their side. It's not whining, it's PR.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by alwillis on Thursday December 01, 2022 @03:59PM (#33822635)
If Apple told the FBI to go pound sand in the San Bernardino shooter case, where the government wanted a back door to the iPhone, what makes you think they’re going to pressures by some crypto geeks?
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by willcipriano on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:14PM (#33822852)
Yeah who do these crypto guys think they are the CCP?
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by Spivak on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:08PM (#33823634)
It's actually kinda funny because it's exactly right. The US has less power than the CCP to control Apple. Perks of being too big to fail. Apple doesn't bend the knee to the CCP -- gtfo. Apple doesn't bend the knee to the US gov't -- five years and a massive political battle later some Apple exec gets dragged to a congressional hearing to get mildly berated by a 70 year old white dude who doesn't even care outside of scoring some political points for the next midterm election and a fine, maybe? Not too big though, it can't actually hurt them because that's jobs and American business.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by foogazi on Thursday December 01, 2022 @09:41PM (#33826066)
> The US has less power than the CCP to control Apple.

The US has the same power as the CCP, it’s just that the US & CCP legal frameworks are different

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by sneak on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:12PM (#33822826)
That was coordinated marketing between the FBI and Apple.

Apple does not have the power or authority to tell the USG to pound sand:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...

There is already a backdoor in the iPhone, and Apple already preserves it for the FBI.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by snowwrestler on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:44PM (#33823292)
For those who don’t know: you can fully encrypt your iPhone backups and store them locally on your computer if you prefer. You do not need to use iCloud backup to use an iPhone.

You can also skip backups entirely if you want.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by stale2002 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:27PM (#33824547)
> what makes you think they’re going to pressures by some crypto geeks?

They wouldn't be the ones being pressured. Instead it would be lawmakers.

The EU has already passed a law, and the USA is considering one, that has already passed out of committee.

Governments can just start confiscating Apple's funds. What, is there going to be an Apple private military, that invades bank of America, and forces them at gone point to not follow a court order? Yeah no. The courts will order them to pay money, and the banks will send the money, no matter what Apple thinks.

The Fines in EU would be something like 10% of global revenue. They can't ignore that.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by seydor on Thursday December 01, 2022 @03:07PM (#33821975)
Agreed. They should pull their wallets and become web-only.

No sympathy for Coinbase or any other app participating in the system.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:13PM (#33822839)
Apple store people just don't know how cryptocurrencies work. The gas fee doesn't go to Coinbase, it's going to completely random people, called miners or stakers. Why Coinbase should pay for the fees it doesn't receive?
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by HDThoreaun on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:39PM (#33823209)
> Payments in iOS for digital goods and services must go through the App Store. It's right there in the developer terms, and has largely not changed since the App Store was introduced.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by themagician on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:33PM (#33823123)
They don't need to know because it doesn't matter and they don't care. They see it as you buying a digital item. It doesn't matter to them if it's coins for virtual slots or NFTs—it's all the same. It's up to you to figure it out. Coinbase could, conceivably, charge you through the app store and then process the transaction for you. This would be a nightmare to do and defeat the "purpose" of crypto, but it's possible.

One of the benefits of Apple's enforcement here is their extremely generous refund policy. If you ever buy something by accident (or even on purpose, really, and just later regret it) you can ask Apple for a refund and it's almost guaranteed they grant it.

Obviously crypto users don't really think about refunds because nothing is reversible… although who knows, maybe they do.

Honestly, Apple and Google should ban ALL software crypto wallets. No one is checking to see how secure they are. A seed generated on a software wallet may appear random to the user, but there is NO REASON AT ALL to believe that it is, and no way to verify that it is. IMO every iOS software wallet is compromised simply by virtue of the fact that it's impossible to know whether the seed was generated securely.

I 100% guarantee you there will eventually be a massive "hack" on a major iOS software wallet which is nothing more than the person who wrote the code intentionally making it such that they know how the seed is generated. It would be trivial to generate seeds that appear random but are based on nothing more than a passphrase you know and a timestamp that you can increment over, allowing you at any time to generate all possible private keys for every wallet ever made with your app. That app is probably already out there and people are using it, blissfully unaware that at any time all their crypto could just disappear. If the attacker is smart they can later patch the app, remove their proprietary seed generation and no one will EVER know. They can drain wallets randomly and everyone will assume that the victim must be responsible for the compromised seed, when in reality it was compromised on generation. The attacker will never get caught. I would be honestly surprised if this isn't happening right now.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by kimixa on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:02PM (#33823552)
Making a system that bypasses intentional hoops doesn't make the company go "Oh, good job!". They close those loopholes, as they're intentional.

It's not a technical problem to be solved, it's part of the terms for using the platform.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by ilyt on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:14PM (#33825021)
Then Coinbase can sue them just like Epic did
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by csomar on Thursday December 01, 2022 @08:41PM (#33825653)
I think Apple is forward thinking here. The Apple store is a very big business.

And crypto is looking for a use case.

Buy NFT to access this app features.

See?

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by function_seven on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:21PM (#33822958)
Coinbase isn’t on the other end of this. Apple demanding 30% from gas fees would be like them taking that cut from every Venmo or PayPal transaction.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by s3p on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:15PM (#33824419)
exactly! this makes no sense to me. the rules are not being equally applied.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by LeeroyWasHere on Friday December 02, 2022 @02:50AM (#33827967)
They're not asking for the platform fee, they're asking for the underlying banking fee, they're essentially asking for fees from swift transfers coming out of your bank account.

They've lost it.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by varispeed on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:28PM (#33823053)
How do banking apps work on iOS? If my friend sells me his vase and I pay him through banking app making a money transfer, does Apple get 30% cut?
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by ncr100 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @08:24PM (#33825563)
No.

A vase is a tangible real-world product. That falls under the "Apple Pay" contract route, and only if you want to use Apple Pay.

This coinbase thing, afaik, is for a digital product.

Coinbase could workaround all this if they simply launch a web browser to do the purchases, in my view.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by varispeed on Friday December 02, 2022 @04:15AM (#33828409)
How would Apple know it wasn't just the picture of the vase? Would they scan my private messages between my friend to determine that?
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by croes on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:33PM (#33823132)
Sue Apple? They have enough money to stretch any process until the opponents funds are empty.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by everfree on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:42PM (#33824032)
Not when your opponent is also a Fortune 500 company. Lawsuits don't stretch on that long.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by 01acheru on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:37PM (#33824662)
Apple has more money, power and influence than Coinbase by orders of magnitude. If Coinbase doesn't have a really strong case (like it would be in this case) going to court would be a disaster.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by everfree on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:19PM (#33825067)
Lawsuits of this sort don't really hinge on "power" or "influence", they hinge on legal arguments and precedent.

As far as money goes, both companies have enough to be able to see a lawsuit through to completion.

So it doesn't matter much that Apple has "more money, power and influence". Coinbase would either have a case or have no case, irrespective of those factors.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by croes on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:43PM (#33825272)
Epic vs. Apple showed that money is a factor because after the decision come the appeals.

Same happened during the SCO–Linux disputes.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by 01acheru on Thursday December 01, 2022 @08:52PM (#33825712)
I'm sorry but I don't trust the legal system to be so ideal as you do. From my point of view money first, and power and influence second, can bend anything to the favor of those who have them in our current society.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by everfree on Thursday December 01, 2022 @10:15PM (#33826308)
I believe that US state and federal judges generally use sound legal reasoning when deciding civil suits, and I'm pretty sure that they don't take bribes, but I'm not a lawyer so I can't profess to be close to that whole process.

Sure it's true that if one party can't afford legal representation, the other party will have a better outcome. But that's not the case here.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by jbigelow76 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @10:58PM (#33826591)
Try and get an abortion in Texas for yourself or someone you care about and let me know how those precedents and legal arguments work out for you kiddo.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by everfree on Thursday December 01, 2022 @11:11PM (#33826684)
> let me know how those precedents and legal arguments work out

They would work out in such a way as to respect the law as written. The law as written in Texas is to outlaw abortion.

A Coinbase vs Apple lawsuit would likewise work out in such a way as to respect the law as written.

That's the point I've been arguing. What's yours?

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by jbigelow76 on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:41AM (#33827242)
You edited the comment I responded to and removed the "precedent" related part, which is supposed to be an important part of US jurisprudence; discussing edited comments without comments is pointless.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by everfree on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:27AM (#33827499)
I believe I edited it before we went off on this tangent, but to be honest I can't be sure. Your comment was posted 40 minutes after mine, and I don't usually go back that late to edit my comments. If I did, I didn't do it intentionally.

Precedent is itself no more than an interpretation of law, in other words a line of legal reasoning that's already been ossified. I probably edited out the part about precedent because I felt it was redundant to "legal reasoning".

In any case, I don't see how "precedent" makes or breaks anyone's argument here.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by bsamuels on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:36PM (#33823164)
If apologists like you ran the world, I would probably have to pay Apple 30% premium on the value of my entire house if I tried to sign mortgage paperwork on an iphone
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by jerf on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:47PM (#33823328)
Oh, you can do better than that. You'd pay 30% on the mortgage, the seller would pay 30% on the mortgage, the title company would pay 30% on the mortgage, the listing agent would pay 30% on the listing.... my point here not merely being sarcasm, though it is that as well, but it isn't scalable to have every little person involved in facilitating some transaction trying to take 30%.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by nomercy400 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:51PM (#33824130)
You mean like how the title company, listing agent, mortgage broker, notary etc. all take money from the simple transaction that should be just between buyer and seller? Same idea.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by lotsofpulp on Friday December 02, 2022 @08:04AM (#33829945)
You are free to hand a willing seller a few hundred thousand dollars in cash and submit the updated deeds to the county.

Just be ready to deal with any problems yourself.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by jerf on Friday December 02, 2022 @08:58AM (#33830461)
Generally they are taking money roughly proportional to the value being added. You may grumble, but as lotsofpulp also points out, you're welcome to do it yourself. If you didn't, you were presumably still OK with the money being spent. The existence of a reasonable self-serve option keeps the fees reasonable; they can't charge literally 30% of the mortgage for these fees because then everyone would just do it for themselves. (And some of those people would get good at it, and open new businesses that did it for you for a more reasonable price.)

There is some inherent subjectivity to "roughly proportional to the value being added", but in my opinion, it becomes reasonably objective at some point when the value isn't being added. Not 100%, but reasonably so. I think part of the problem with Apple's policy here is that it is another example of trying to jam too large a set of cases into the roof of one policy, a pervasive problem right now with many Silicon Valley-style businesses that try to substitute expensive human insight with cheap computer code for economic decisions. There are perhaps cases where 30% is justified, because Apple is providing that much value to the target transaction. I'll leave that to the reader to decide.

But there are clearly other sorts of transactions that were going to take place anyhow, and it basically just happens to be taking place through an app. Apple did not introduce any significant number of people to Coinbase by putting the Coinbase app on the store. It does not provide a huge amount of service to Coinbase on a per-transaction basis; Coinbase has the financial infrastructure, the technical infrastructure, etc. One way you can tell Apple is not terribly involved is, what are they responsible for in this case? Not very much; even if Apple totally vaporized and all Apple services disappeared, the user could still perform the target transaction on a different platform with virtually no effort. Contrast with the answer to "what if Coinbase totally vaporized and all their services disappeared?" This transaction would become impossible.

For a transaction like this, where Apple did no marketing, where Apple provides essentially no irreplaceable technical service, where the transaction can trivially be done elsewhere and it is just happening to occur on Apple services, where the value flow doesn't need to involve Apple at all, a 30% charge seems outrageously large.

I think some of the problem in debating this, and arguably all the way down to people understanding this, is that both these cases exist simultaneously, and they are both "true". There are apps that exist and thrive only because of Apple infrastructure, services, and promotion. 30% doesn't seem unreasonable, at least in the abstract. But other apps don't have anything like that service or support from Apple, but get hit with the exact same fee. This is the sort of thing that really starts to look like monopolistic rent seeking. (Or at least oligopolistic rent seeking.)

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by unityByFreedom on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:17PM (#33823738)
There may be an anti-trust case against Apple, but if there is, hanging it on crypto is not the place to do it.

Personally I am more concerned about Comcast's monopoly and would prioritize the FTC to look at that, but that's been out of style since 2014.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by wkdneidbwf on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:20PM (#33823786)
let’s not give apple ideas!
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by jeltz on Thursday December 01, 2022 @11:44PM (#33826882)
Yeah, I hate everything web3 and still think Apple is being ridiculous.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by cmovq on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:52PM (#33823419)
Is apple supposed to take 30% of the transaction fee when I purchase investments in an online banking app?
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by ar_lan on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:51PM (#33824134)
I think this is a great question. Stocks and NFTs are largely the same in my eyes - but I can't imagine Fidelity even bothering with an iPhone app if they lost 30% of each transaction people make (unless it was solely on the fees - I'm not sure where Apple draws the lines).

Also - does Apple take 30% from each Amazon purchase? I overwhelmingly just use the Amazon app for purchasing - I can't imagine the amount of money Apple makes from Amazon alone, if so.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by thehappypm on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:57PM (#33824186)
No, physical goods are exempted.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by ar_lan on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:01PM (#33824235)
Ah, that makes sense - why Kindle + Audible purchases have to be made on the web.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by cjensen on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:58PM (#33824207)
No because investments are not digital goods. Just because something is not physical does not mean it is digital. For example, a right to mine iron is not a physical thing, nor is it a digital thing; instead it is a legal thing.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by foogazi on Thursday December 01, 2022 @09:43PM (#33826086)
It’s only for digital goods

If Fidelity sold you app skins and customization features they’d have to pay

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by Fnoord on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:59PM (#33823516)
There's a different reason Apple should block the feature: NFTs are a scam. I have zero interest in falling for scams, I want walled gardens to protect me from them. Unfortunately they did not use this reason.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by bloppe on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:33PM (#33823926)
I'm always fascinated by opinions like this.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by rybosworld on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:56PM (#33824183)
NFT's are no more a scam than any digital goods.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by Fnoord on Friday December 02, 2022 @02:46AM (#33827946)
Yes, NFT proponents and those invested in the swindle try to imply such. They try to imply NFTs are worth anything outside their ecosystem. They try to imply this by relying on blockchain technology while in reality its centralized and there is no consensus on the intellectual property because the authority isn't verified. Its as if you run a digital notary which would rely on law to be enforced, but the law would only work within the notary vicinity. If I own the copy of the artwork (say a digital equivalent of a Picasso) because I made it or bought the rights from the owner then I will have that copy even when all NFTs are purged off the earth. And copyright law is recognized nearly worthwide while a NFT blockchain... is not.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by tigrezno on Friday December 02, 2022 @08:07AM (#33829964)
Be serious. You are refering to "Art NFTs". Yes, those are scams. But they are not all about art.

Tickets as NFTs are an absolutely valid use for example, and many others.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by rybosworld on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:55PM (#33824168)
Did the apple employee who delisted coinbase wallet write this?
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by ncr100 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @08:26PM (#33825581)
WOW that is rude @rybosworld.
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by electic on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:55PM (#33824173)
This is not what is happening here. It's worse. If you want to send a NFT to another address, you need gas to complete the transaction.

Coinbase does not get gas fees to complete the transaction. This isn't a swap. This isn't an exchange for ETH.

Absurd and I've downvoted you.

Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by pranau on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:08PM (#33824327)
I’m disappointed to see such nonsense on HN not flagged to death. Is this a troll comment that I’m too slow to get?
Re:Apple Blocks Coinbase wallet, for not giving them a 30% c... by jeroenhd on Friday December 02, 2022 @04:33AM (#33828514)
You're completely right in that this is exactly what the app store rules will describe as a digital transaction.

It also highlights the insanity of the app store rules. I though Facebook being blocked from showing the percentage of purchases being sent to Apple was peak ridiculousness, but this is yet another step.