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Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by Buttons840 on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @11:11AM (#33611009)
Does InReach require a monthly cost?

Alternatively, you can spend about $200 one time on a personal locator beacon that requires no ongoing costs. It can't do two-way communication but activating it sends out a specific frequency picked up by satellites and is the equivalent of calling 911. Rescuers will come to help you.

All serious hikers and outdoor adventurers should carry a personal locator beacon.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by dont__panic on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @11:30AM (#33611302)
Any personal locator beacon recommendations? It's one of those items that I could very much use during bike touring, hiking, and bikepacking... but I've never bought one because it seems like a very large cost for something I won't even test until it is a matter of life and death.

Out of curiosity... is there any way to alert your local emergency department in advance of testing a beacon, so you can verify that it works?

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by lxgr on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @11:48AM (#33611587)
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by jzwinck on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @11:52AM (#33611658)
I dont own this but it is pretty much the standard: https://www.acrartex.com/products/resqlink-400/

These devices require a new battery every few years and that service includes a test done by the manufacturer. There is also a self test button on the device which does not send a message to the satellites.

If you really feel the need to send test messages into space, they do support that but then you need a subscription (https://www.acrartex.com/406link/). At that point you may as well buy a different device which has 2 way messaging included in the subscription. PLB users generally do trust that their devices work the first time they're used for real, and this trust is backed up by a lot of real world use.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by ghaff on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:05PM (#33611869)
>PLB users generally do trust that their devices work the first time they're used for real, and this trust is backed up by a lot of real world use.

Although they are not foolproof. See for example the story of Kate Matrosova. [1] Basically, mountain shadows made the location readings erratic which, in combination with extremely bad weather, meant rescuers couldn't find her.

[1] https://www3.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/02/21/the-young-woma...

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by tialaramex on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:40PM (#33612418)
Note that http://www.catskillmountaineer.com/reviews-winterhikingKM.ht... for example says Kate did not have a PLB, but only a SPOT (one of the many commercial products in this space)

PLBs are tested down to -40° so it might have stayed working for longer as the weather got worse. It is of course impossible to say if Kate might have survived under other circumstances except that (not very interestingly) if she's decided the weather was too awful and aborted she'd almost certainly live.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by ghaff on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @01:11PM (#33612801)
It's been a while since I read the book on this. I'm not sure if it got into the exact equipment or not. Certainly if SAR had an accurate fix from the beginning there would have been at least some hope for a rescue.

The book was interesting mostly for all the SAR detail. The accident, sadly, was mostly in the category of--however fit and well-equipped you are--don't try to beat a very bad incoming storm on an exposed ridge line in the middle of winter. If she had turned around at Madison Hut or wherever she'd have been fine.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by jzwinck on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:55PM (#33612615)
I only meant that the devices, if properly maintained, can be trusted to do their job as best they can and not say "PC LOAD LETTER" and expect you to troubleshoot it. A successful rescue is never guaranteed.

Those of us who are programmers usually default to "If it's not tested end to end, it won't work," and that is the sentiment I was responding to.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by tjohns on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @01:30PM (#33613046)
Kate Matrosova was using SPOT, not a PLB.

Actual PLBs (not SPOT) have a backup strategy in the event the GPS signal is obscured by mountains.

If the device can't get a reliable GPS fix, the satellites will resort to measuring doppler shift as they pass overhead to locate the transmitter. It's slower (takes several passes of the satellite, so we're talking hours) and less accurate, but it will get rescuers to the general direction.

From there, PLB devices also transmit a low-power homing signal on 121.5 MHz (the aviation distress frequency) that SAR teams can locate using radio direction-finding equipment.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by ghaff on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:14PM (#33614383)
Thanks for the info. Although, in general, I assume a device that allows you to have two-way communications with SAR is preferable even if a PLB might have been better in this ultimately fatal situation.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by jjav on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @11:05PM (#33618698)
Yes, two-way communication is a huge benefit since you can explain the problem and the responders can give advice in addition to ETAs.

However, a device like the Garmin inReach requires an active subscription for the SOS to work. If there's a glitch with your credit card and the service becomes inactive while you're on travels, it might not work.

Another difference is that an inReach SOS message goes to the Garmin-run https://www.iercc.com/en-US/about/ rescue coordination center who will the relay to rescue services.

Whereas a PLB or EPIRB communicate with the Cospas-Sarsat system and is handled directly by government rescue agencies (https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/mission-control-center). While the Garmin service works great, I have more trust in the USMCC being always responsive than any private company.

So the best advise is to have both. I have an EPIRB (for boating) and a couple PLBs in addition the the Garmin inReach. I use the inReach for casual messaging but if I ever have a real emergency I'll activate the PLB and EPIRB first and only afterwards start trying to message via the Garmin.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by int_19h on Thursday November 17, 2022 @03:08AM (#33636199)
My understanding is that SARSAT is the only option that has satellites in orbits above LEO, and thus generally better coverage. So if it's down to one thing only, I'd pick the PLB just on the basis that, in a serious emergency, it's more important for help to come at all.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by jabroni_salad on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:48PM (#33612531)
For PLB I am pretty sure it's universal. For messengers (like the inreach), find out what people in your geo use between iridium or SPOT because satellite coverage can vary. For example, I have heard that in alaska SPOT's only geostationary sat is really low on the southern horizon and anything that breaks LOS will interfere with the device.

For PLB specifically you cannot test them. Once you activate them, they continually broadcast and cannot be canceled except by destroying the device. For messengers, they hook up to a web service and you can send messages to personal email or SMS via the sat network as your test.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @01:50PM (#33613273)
> I have heard that in alaska SPOT's only geostationary sat is really low on the southern horizon and anything that breaks LOS will interfere with the device.

Any geostationary sat would be low on the southern horizon in Alaska. That's just how geostationary orbits work, they are over the equator. Though pretty high above (35.000km/22.000mi). So it's still visible there but yeah you need a clear view of the southern horizon.

But Globalstar which runs the service for SPOT only has low earth orbit sats which are definitely not geostationary. They're only at a few hundred kilometers.

However it could very well be that their orbits are aligned so that they are always pretty low to the south from Alaska, yes.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by pajko on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @02:22PM (#33613675)
This is a quite good writeup with some recommendations: https://www.greenbelly.co/pages/best-personal-locator-beacon...

And answers your question: "Each device has a test mode that will communicate with the SARSAT satellite network without sending an alert."

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by lxgr on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @05:33PM (#33616082)
> Each device has a test mode that will communicate with the SARSAT satellite network without sending an alert.

That explanation is factually incorrect, then. There currently is no "test" flag, nor is there the required infrastructure to check if your test alert went through:

https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emergency_beacon-testing/

So this "self-test" feature can't be communicating with actual satellites. No idea what it actually does, but it's definitely not an end-to-end test.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by dont__panic on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:13AM (#33625539)
Perhaps the emergency communication with satellites is a handshake, and the "test" mode for the beacons simply doesn't complete the handshake?
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by lxgr on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:55AM (#33626327)
Possibly (the page I linked even mentions a "test" type of signal), but given that there is no return link for most PLBs and no "list of recent successfully received test transmissions" online, I don't understand how one would actually verify success.

This policy document mentions that the "self-test" feature actually does not communicate with satellites at all, and also mentions a "test frame" that is discarded by satellites, as well as a "test protocol" that is forwarded by satellites, but discarded by the ground segment: https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/wp-content/uploads/POL-MCC-051-v...

So it seems like both the "self-test" and the "test frame" don't tell you a lot about how well your beacon would work in case of an actual emergency (unless you have equipment that can receive and interpret that signal), and live testing involves a lot of paperwork.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by DMell on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @11:27AM (#33611256)
Yes there are monthly plans that have different features - such as number of texts, custom messages, tracking intervals, etc.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by Johnny555 on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @11:50AM (#33611621)
Does InReach require a monthly cost?

Yeah, the cheapest plan is $14.95/mo ($11.95/mo if you pay for 12 months) and includes 10 "free" text's, $0.50/text after that.

I wish they had a non-cost plan (or maybe $10/year) plus $5/text or something like that for use in an emergency. I have an InReach, but haven't used it for an emergency (yet), I've sent a few texts to friends/family while outside of cellular coverage since they are "free", but would rather save money and only pay if I need to use it in an emergency situation.

Maybe they'll have to get more flexible with their plans now that the iPhone has this feature, and T-Mobile is reportedly coming out with Satellite connectivity for phones.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by lxgr on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:39PM (#33612412)
> I wish they had a non-cost plan (or maybe $10/year) plus $5/text or something like that for use in an emergency.

Given that the outdoor SAR use case is probably the largest reason for people to get one of these devices in the first place, I doubt that such a model would be economically sustainable (unless subsidized by government agencies or possibly insurances saving money due to spending less on large-scale search operations).

Vendors could also bake a free SAR plan into the initial sales price, I suppose.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by chrisshroba on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @02:24PM (#33613714)
Yeah, if we conservatively say 1% of InReach users will need to send an SOS message, then looking at the math:

Today, 100 InReach subscribers nets Garmin around $144/yr * 100 people = $14,400

If the InReach were free except for when activating the SOS, the SOS would have to cost $14,000 to make that same revenue from the same number of users. This would surely lead to more deaths due to folks waiting way longer to send an SOS.

Numbers are estimates but the order of magnitude shouldn't be too far off.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by Johnny555 on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:53PM (#33614869)
They're going to lose the people like me anyway when phones can send a SOS by satellite, so their revenue from me will either go to $0 and I'll sell my InReach on eBay, or they can get some small amount of revenue (enough to cover the administrative costs of registering the device) from me.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by lxgr on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @04:06PM (#33615011)
Good point – now that the iPhone has satellite SOS, the market has changed, and the pure SOS use case has become a lot less compelling.

Some users still prefer a standalone device, want P2P messaging functionality (until Apple adds that, too), or need coverage beyond Globalstar – I'd be curious to see how much of the market that is, in the end.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by noahjk on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:44PM (#33612472)
I like the way Fi does it, where service can be paused for 90 days at a time. Just used it on vacation recently after having it paused for a couple years and it was seamless. I think I'll end up paying around $30 for the trip. It's a nice balance imo
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by GoldenRacer on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @04:02PM (#33614961)
The $15 a month for the Garmin in reach is a month to month plan. You can get it for a single trip then let it expire for years before getting another month for your next trip. If you buy a 1 year subscription it ends up going down to $12/month so if you're using it >=10 months a year, it's cheaper to commit to that but for most people, month to month where you can pause whenever you aren't using it is a good option.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by willcipriano on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @02:37PM (#33613910)
You can turn it off in the off-season making the annual cost not quite monthly * 12
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by Johnny555 on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @04:40PM (#33615427)
My problem is I don't really have an off-season, nearly all year round I go on at least one hike a month that's outside of cell coverage (not too hard around here), which is why I got the InReach in the first place.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by katbyte on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @07:36PM (#33617322)
is 15$ a month really that expensive when it gets you the ability to communicate anywhere?
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by Johnny555 on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @08:07PM (#33617558)
It's not expensive when it's compared to the alternative of not being able to call for help when there's no cell coverage.

But it's expensive if it's compared to $0 for a feature that's already built into my phone. (though it remains to see how long Apple keeps it free since they only say it's "free for 2 years")

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by katbyte on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @11:04PM (#33618694)
afaik the new iphone is SOS and location only, no text bridge
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by GeekyBear on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @10:14PM (#33618366)
There is a $35 annual fee for the ability to turn the plan off and on.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by skeyo on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @09:44PM (#33618178)
For me it's the best $15/mo I spend. As someone who is regularly alone in the backcountry far from cell service, it's massively nice to know that I can communicate something wrong or if simply running late. And my wife also has to worry far less knowing that I can let her know if something goes wrong. She also has the ability to request my location without me doing anything in the event I were unconscious or something.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by masom on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:06PM (#33611883)
InReach, and any users (other brands offering competing two-way communicators) of the Iridium satellite network, have ongoing fees. They're rather small compared to someone dying in the wilderness.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by Buttons840 on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:13PM (#33612002)
My point was that you can avoid dying in the wilderness with an even cheaper PLB.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by lxgr on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:45PM (#33612496)
PLBs are great and definitely better than not carrying any emergency communications device at all, but they can ultimately only send out a binary signal: "I need help at location x/y".

There's a lot of situations in which I'd appreciate being able to call help without possibly triggering an expensive helicopter SAR operation, when sending a park ranger would be more than sufficient (e.g. a sprained ankle a mile off the trailhead when solo hiking).

Another advantage of two-way communicators is being able to get instructions from the SAR team: It can be vital to know whether you should e.g. go to higher ground (because your signal has not been received yet) or conversely seek shelter from the elements for a couple of hours. Newer PLBs partially solve that problem though, thanks to Galileo's "blue light" return channel.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by s0rce on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:16PM (#33612050)
So far 100% of my inreach use is texting family, I bought it for emergencies but so far (luckily) haven't needed it for that. I'm confident that it will work well enough in that situation that I don't need a PLB.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by subsubzero on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:44PM (#33612487)
It does, I have the fancier inReach - the one that can make calls and texts without being tethered to an iphone. The service runs $15 a month for the basic service and scales up depending on how many texts a month you want to use. I wouldn't ditch it for an iphone 14 as it is way more rugged and in really cold climates(I live near the mountains) a iphone will rapidly discharge its battery and will be useless.

I finally broke down and got my inreach as I was exploring a canyon way out in the desert and a rockslide almost took out my ankle. I told my Wife when I got back and she made me get one as I most likely would have been in serious trouble as cell signal was not working and nobody was in miles of me.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by carabiner on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @01:44PM (#33613209)
Which Inreach model allows voice calls?
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by jms703 on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @02:41PM (#33613948)
None of the Inreach devices can make calls.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by subsubzero on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:45PM (#33614762)
you are correct, inReach devices can text by themselves(with no cell signal) and can be paired with a cell phone to make calls(I have the 66i), but not make calls by themselves.

https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/GUID-6E5DFD2E-EEE4-4...

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by c0nsumer on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @05:16PM (#33615870)
Are you sure of that? I can find no info nor claims of inReach devices doing anything voice-wise, even when paired with a phone.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by subsubzero on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @06:08PM (#33616500)
I think I didn't write that clear enough :) I haven't used mine like this so far.. but you can pair the garmin to a phone(via the connect app) and make a call from the phone using the garmin as an antenna so to speak, you cannot talk or hear anything on it(the garmin inReach).
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by c0nsumer on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @07:01PM (#33617032)
Can you point me to the docs on that? As far as I knew the inReach is a data-only thing, even when paired to the phone.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by skeyo on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @09:45PM (#33618187)
That's definitely not a thing.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by PierceJoy on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @10:35PM (#33618504)
You can pair the Garmin to a phone. You cannot make calls from that phone over the inreach network.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by carabiner on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @10:18PM (#33618387)
You've linked to the DriveSmart 66 doc which has nothing to do with Inreach. The DriveSmart is a car computer: https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/721098
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by jjav on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @10:43PM (#33618553)
The Garmin inReach cannot make phone calls in any way or configuration.

It can send & receive text messages either by itself (that's a pain since you have to select letters one by one with arrow keys, but it works) or paired to a supported external device like a tablet.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by tony_cannistra on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @01:47PM (#33613250)
Actually, I'm not sure this is good advice. Two-way commiunicators are vastly preferred by Search and Rescue organizations.

The reason for this is that they can learn about what they need to do and who they need to send to you, because they can ask you.

If you have a broken leg, they'll send in 10 people to get you out. Dehydrated? Two responders and water.

Calls that come in from "dumb" communicators like PLBs are more likely to get a 1-2 person "hasty" team assigned to them who can arrive quickly then call in more reinforcements if necessary. A SAR org. isn't going to put 10 volunteers on a PLB call that ends up being a rolled ankle, at least not immediately.

This has the potential to greatly delay the time to care for you, especially for more severe emergencies.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by widforss on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @02:38PM (#33613914)
I'm on a SAR team. We literally deployed 10 people on both PLB's and Inreaches last winter. SAR people are cheap
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by biomcgary on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @02:47PM (#33614038)
SAR people may largely be volunteers, but helicopters have fairly expensive operational costs. In time-sensitive situations, it is better to have two way communications (because it keeps SAR as inexpensive as possible). See my sister comment for my wife's experience.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by widforss on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:07PM (#33614299)
Those two operations were made using snow mobiles, but yes, as soon as helicopters com into the picture, the costs skyrocket.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by danuker on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @07:45PM (#33617386)
> because it keeps SAR as inexpensive as possible

"Hurry, but please hold the helicopter, I won't make enough money for the rest of my life to pay for it, whether I survive or not."

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by circular_lights on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @09:25PM (#33618060)
I was wondering who foots the bill for the equipment
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by widforss on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @01:23AM (#33619581)
In our case, our org (Norwegian Red Cross) buy the equipment using sponsor money and the like. Then we get reimbursed by the government for using them in SAR operations.

It works well enough for us to have maybe 4 snowmobiles, 2 6-wheel ATV's, a 4 person rope rescue kit, 10 TETRA phones and a car in addition to various medical equipment.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by tony_cannistra on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:02PM (#33614220)
Totally.

It sounds like your team has the advantage of having a large volunteer corpus. I wish they all did.

Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by biomcgary on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @02:43PM (#33613986)
My wife has an InReach. While hiking in Colorado, she encountered a woman who started going into shock (for no obvious reason!). Because of the satellite-based texting, SAR determined that Medivac chopper was more appropriate than land based rescue. Doctors said that the woman had 1-2 hours before death / permanent injury, so the most likely outcome of only having an emergency beacon would have been her death.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by oofbey on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @06:51PM (#33616939)
This is a very telling example, and probably not uncommon.
Re:Apple: Emergency SOS via satellite available today (US an... by GeekyBear on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @09:59PM (#33618280)
> Does InReach require a monthly cost?

You buy the hardware, pay a $30 activation fee, and a then pay monthly for the service.

There are several service plans ranging from $15 a month to $65 a month. The cheap plan comes with 10 texts a month and the $65 a month plan has unlimited texting.

If you pay an additional $35 annual fee, you can suspend the plan during months you would not use it.

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/837461/pn/010-06000-SU