News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jcadam on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:22PM (#33456953)
I was laid off at the beginning of October and still can’t find anything. It’s definitely a buyer’s market for senior level engineering talent.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by Grazester on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:25PM (#33456997)
Amazon and Google are always calling, even now I gets emails from both. Amazon recruiters just spam me. Shoot your shot there if interested
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by ketzo on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:30PM (#33457059)
Amazon announced a corporate-level hiring freeze just today, FYI.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by X-Istence on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:56PM (#33457396)
Someone should tell the two recruiters in my inbox...
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by karmasimida on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:58PM (#33457437)
Recruiters are actually slow in this development, because it happens last night after 8 PM PST.

Effectively no offer would be able to generate through the system.

I would say the Amazon spam will go away for next 6 months if not longer.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by DeathArrow on Thursday November 03, 2022 @05:31PM (#33457985)
Funny, I did my first interview with them a week ago.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by inkeddeveloper on Thursday November 03, 2022 @11:00PM (#33461514)
You and I have different definitions of funny.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by DeathArrow on Friday November 04, 2022 @03:37AM (#33463261)
I am not a native English speaker. Here I used funny as a synonim for strange, which is probably a mistake due to me extracting most of my English knowledge from Hollywood films.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by larusso on Friday November 04, 2022 @05:04AM (#33463718)
For a moment I thought you outed yourself as German, because a sentence like: “Komisch, ich hatte ein Interview mit ihnen letzte Woche.” works just fine. But we German’s have no sense of humor so I’ve heard. Also an explanation.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by DeathArrow on Friday November 04, 2022 @07:18AM (#33464843)
>But we German’s have no sense of humor so I’ve heard.

That's how Germans are perceived but having met Germans I know that's totally not the case.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by Grazester on Friday November 04, 2022 @07:50AM (#33465093)
Your use of funny was appropriate here.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by dasil003 on Saturday November 05, 2022 @01:28AM (#33478255)
Your use of sarcasm is spot on though
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by okaram on Thursday November 03, 2022 @06:41PM (#33458956)
Meh ... From their announcement:

we will hire backfills to replace employees who move on to new opportunities, and there are some targeted places where we will continue to hire people incrementally

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by ketzo on Thursday November 03, 2022 @07:29PM (#33459427)
Yeah, I don’t think it’s doom and gloom.

But I also don’t think it’s prudent to say “don’t worry about that layoff, you’ll get a new BigTech job tomorrow!”

Times are weird.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by hef19898 on Friday November 04, 2022 @03:36AM (#33463252)
As long as Amazon isn't stopping the usual Q4 hiring spikes in operations, Amazon should overall be fine.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by kemiller on Thursday November 03, 2022 @05:07PM (#33457588)
They're not really serious.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by rexreed on Thursday November 03, 2022 @05:13PM (#33457688)
Recruiters are always willing to waste your time especially since their job is to provide their employers options, and besides they need their pay as well. If they aren't recruiting, then they aren't justifying their own salaries. So while you might be getting interview or connection requests, that doesn't correlate to actual hiring.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by CTDOCodebases on Thursday November 03, 2022 @06:50PM (#33459056)
They mine you CV for info and use that for lead generation.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by maerF0x0 on Thursday November 03, 2022 @07:59PM (#33459743)
how so?
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by emodendroket on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:37AM (#33462247)
He's referring to third-party recruiters, who could use your resume (or information about who you've recently applied with, which they'll usually ask) to find potential clients. Doesn't make a lot of sense if we're talking Google or Amazon recruiters.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by CTDOCodebases on Friday November 11, 2022 @05:17AM (#33558948)
Correct.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by confidantlake on Thursday November 03, 2022 @06:09PM (#33458543)
Yeah, did the google interview late this summer and then they froze hiring. Got contacted by a recruiter from google last month. Told him I had already interviewed. He told me I should just wait until the freeze is over and not interview again.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by sulam on Thursday November 03, 2022 @06:31PM (#33458822)
The freeze has been over for weeks. I do an interview every week, and my team has two open roles right now.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by confidantlake on Thursday November 03, 2022 @07:45PM (#33459611)
Damn, ty for the heads up. Might be worth contacting my recruiter again then. Was for L4.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by happyopossum on Thursday November 03, 2022 @07:45PM (#33459613)
Can confirm - have seen 2 offers go out in the past week or so.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by VirusNewbie on Thursday November 03, 2022 @08:29PM (#33460054)
to be fair, I'm pretty sure Google was doing interviews even when things were completely frozen. I applied in May, did interviews in June/july, passed HC in July and was frozen out for months and months. Sounds like things are just starting to open back up.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by WFHRenaissance on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:23PM (#33456966)
What sort of engineer are you and how many years of experience?
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jcadam on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:30PM (#33457070)
16 years. Working at the Senior/Staff level.

Most recently Clojure work. I’ve done a lot of Java of course, although I’ve been rejected from some of those jobs because I spent the last year doing Clojure full time instead of Java.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by throw8383833jj on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:34PM (#33457122)
yeah, it gets to be tough once you get over the 10 to 15 year mark. Alot of companies probably prefer younger folks.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by cappuccinooo on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:44PM (#33457241)
wtf is happening in software? it seems tough to break in, and apparently it gets tough after ten years? so there's a ten year gap where the 'going is good'?
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by karmasimida on Thursday November 03, 2022 @05:06PM (#33457552)
I think it is mainly because in some startup or smaller shops they don't need senior staff to work on their problems

Plus, senior folks are expensive

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jcadam on Thursday November 03, 2022 @05:19PM (#33457777)
You use inexperienced and/or cheap programmers to build the foundation of your company. Then you bring in experienced folks to keep the barely-functional ball of mud shambling along for the next 10 years.

It's the SV way.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jokethrowaway on Saturday November 05, 2022 @04:16PM (#33485199)
That's the opposite.

Startups really need senior people only to hit the ground running; only established companies with seniors can afford to hire juniors.

The thing is after a certain level of seniority, there is really not that much difference so you may just as well focus with someone with 10 years experience who charges a bit less, compared to a 15y dragon.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by hattmall on Thursday November 03, 2022 @06:15PM (#33458606)
Yes, but it started roughly 10 years ago. It wasn't hard to break in and being older didn't matter. Now we have a massive glut of CS/IT graduates and a maturing industry exiting the rapid growth phase. On top of that we have a market and economy being propped up by 2 trillion in reverse repos.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RRPONTSYD

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by okaram on Thursday November 03, 2022 @06:44PM (#33458989)
Different people have different experiences.

From what I have seen, it's slightly hard to get the first position, easy after that.

It's not hard to get a position after 10 or 20 years, but, if you lose your position, you may need to adjust your expectations.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by AYBABTME on Thursday November 03, 2022 @09:41PM (#33460679)
When I started my career 10y ago, even then it was understood that after getting in, you've got 10-15y to go before you start running out of desirability. Search "why aren't there any 20y+ devs", it's not a new phenomenon.

Something happens, idk what, after 10-15y. Either people made so much money that they retired, or they all become managers, or idk?

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by vidarh on Friday November 04, 2022 @06:54AM (#33464582)
It's a pyramid, so it gets harder because there are fewer roles to pick from that feels worthwhile, and you also need to overcome a fear from employers that you're too experienced and will get bored and leave.

I'm at 27 years experience, and my problem is not finding positions that I could get (with some finessing about how I want to stay hands on and/or love their specific company), but finding places that have sufficiently senior roles at the kind of salaries I expect. Most smaller companies don't need someone as experienced as me and/or can't afford me, and I don't really want to work at a FAANG or similar (had one big corporate experience and don't particularly need another) unless something truly exceptional is on offer.

Here's a tip to those looking:

If you struggle, look for roles that look undervalued and/or are slightly below your level, and apply anyway. Be honest about what you expect as long as you're not overvaluing yourself relative to your experience. Recruiters are often fine with putting forward a few expensive candidates if they look good enough. Especially external recruiters whose pay is usually at least partially linked to the salary you're hired at, but also because a spread helps give hiring managers an idea of the tradeoffs they're facing.

Undervalued roles (roles advertised with too low salary for what they're looking for) tend to attract fewer applications, so you're both more likely to get a shot and negotiating salary up beyond the stated level is usually possible. Applying to roles slightly below your level makes it easier to get past the first level recruiter filter because they like to give a range and for lower level roles they're less likely to have applicants to push on the upper end.

Shift your target down until you get the interviews. Then work on getting offers. Then work on lifting the offers to the level you need.

It's usually far more important to get past the recruiter than it is to get a perfect match with the role because a lot of companies have a lot of flexibility in what they're actually looking for. Especially for more senior roles the hiring manager will also often have reasonable influence and ability to get the budget lifted for a candidate that stands out.

E.g. in my current job search, my currently most promising prospect is a role where I told the recruiter I would not consider offers lower than 20% above the high end of their advertised range because I thought the advertised range was too low for the years of experience they wanted. And they wanted someone with less experience than me. She put me forward anyway, and on the back of seeing my CV they came back and wanted to interview me for a more senior role that has not been advertised, and where I'm currently the only candidate. I may or may not end up there, but to me that's a pretty normal experience when approaching companies about roles which fit those criteria.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by anonymousDan on Friday November 04, 2022 @09:52AM (#33466692)
Great post/strategy.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jokethrowaway on Saturday November 05, 2022 @04:15PM (#33485178)
Almost no company does hard enough work, they don't need very experienced people - and they tend to charge more.

10 years of CRUD APIs is as productive as 20 or 30 years of CRUD APIs.

If anything, the older you get the higher the chance you won't know the latest BS kids are using these days.

I'm at 15 years, I keep specialising in different things (leadership, people management, mentoring, backend, frontend, infra, performance, crypto) but I'm just running out of things and the best paying companies (remote only) still want the same 3 skills.

My dad is doing pretty much what I'm doing with a 30 years advantage and getting jobs is harder and harder.

It does get boring, but my passive income from products is still not matching my ever growing daily rate. I guess at some point I'll stop being able to raise my daily rate, my passive income will catch up and I'll drop consulting entirely.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by Rezwoodly on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:47PM (#33457275)
Lmao not at all.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by yieldcrv on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:57PM (#33457402)
I erase years off my resume

People expect the 10 year engineer to be a 10x engineer lol

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jcadam on Thursday November 03, 2022 @05:23PM (#33457854)
I guess I need to figure out how to do this without it being obvious.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by soperj on Thursday November 03, 2022 @06:28PM (#33458784)
Just don't put years worked at a job on the resume. I never have and I've never been asked. Most relevant jobs go first.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jcadam on Thursday November 03, 2022 @07:09PM (#33459253)
I was always told obfuscating the dates and/or going with a "functional" resume just screamed "old" :)
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by zxexz on Thursday November 03, 2022 @10:45PM (#33461369)
I was taught to leave the month off your start and end dates of previous positions when applying for a job. Still don’t know if this is a good idea or not, but at the very least it opens up another dialog tree with potential employers. Seems to have worked fine for me, but who knows. The rationale was “it’s less information to parse”. Might be just a superstition.

Interviewers always ask for more specifics anyways, which is good because you can use that as an opportunity to jump into things you accomplished near the end of a job, or at the beginning of another.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by computerfriend on Friday November 04, 2022 @03:50AM (#33463319)
I wasn't taught to do this, but also do it. I doubt it helps or hurts either way.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by lazyasciiart on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:05AM (#33462065)
If you want recommendations on what to avoid, an 8 page resume that starts out by listing your high school summer job in the 1960's is the best anti-example I've seen.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by soperj on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:39AM (#33462264)
> obfuscating the dates

I don't put dates on at all. I never have, even when I was 20.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by balls187 on Thursday November 03, 2022 @07:58PM (#33459723)
It’s gonna take time. Don’t lose hope.

And all the 5-7 year devs who no-hire senior folks, will eventually find themselves being no-hired when they hit the 15 year mark.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by yieldcrv on Thursday November 03, 2022 @08:44PM (#33460182)
when I say erase years, I mean I remove positions, not hide the years

I just keep the last 5 years of work on my resume and delete the earlier ones

"senior engineer" is like 2 years of work experience anyway, it doesn't matter.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by rrherr on Thursday November 03, 2022 @08:57PM (#33460283)
Then for your education section, do you keep the dates there, or remove those dates?
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by yieldcrv on Thursday November 03, 2022 @09:51PM (#33460810)
If its present at all I remove the dates

Only APAC companies have asked though, haven’t really bothered with European companies

If you have a CS degree it doesn’t matter what the gap is there to where your years of job experience begins, assuming degree is before experience starts

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by zxexz on Thursday November 03, 2022 @10:50PM (#33461436)
For most software positions, I’d omit the dates for school, and just note the institution and the degree you obtained. Unless it’s your first job or you’re still working on your degree. You can use dates as filler, but after 1 or 2 positions, in my experience (as an interviewer and interviewee) it tends to be better to sacrifice such details so you can elaborate more on work experience and projects, whilst keeping the resumé a single page. Or put the year on the same line as the school and degree, if you care.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by kamkazemoose on Thursday November 03, 2022 @04:51PM (#33457325)
My company is actually hiring senior/staff Clojure devs.

https://grnh.se/08cec3bb4us - Senior Engineer https://grnh.se/5c028b554us - Staff Engineer

You should take a look and let me know if you have any questions.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jcadam on Thursday November 03, 2022 @07:07PM (#33459244)
Heh, I actually interviewed with Reify during my last job search (where I ended up taking the job I was eventually laid off from). They weren't interested back then :/
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by roguas on Saturday November 05, 2022 @06:10PM (#33486432)
They weren't interested as they might have had a better candidate. That is typically the reason. It is not about you not passing a metaphorical "bar" at least that is the case for senior positions.

I have been recruiting quite a lot and at the end of the cycle you go through making difficult choices. Often times you get 2 good candidates and only one spot. So you compare them and pick a better one. The dismissed candidate can be picked next year due to lack of better candidates.

Unless it has been clearly stated in the reply that you seemed to be below their expectation of a senior candidate. And even then... a lot can change over the year and if you feel like you are better you have every right to reapply. Most companies will inform you of reapply policy terms if your are outside of it.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by kyawzazaw on Thursday November 03, 2022 @05:12PM (#33457679)
Amperity in Seattle uses Clojure
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by unexpected on Thursday November 03, 2022 @05:44PM (#33458173)
This is monumentally stupid, but I wonder if you should just leave the last year of Clojure off of your resume.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by lumost on Thursday November 03, 2022 @10:28PM (#33461209)
Specific language expertise rarely matters. I intentionally avoid discussing specific technologies used to achieve results/goals/services unless it's highly relevant (e.g. creating a RESTful web service etc.)

It's good to have your technologies listed, and be honest if your doing something out of your comfort zone... but there really isn't a technology out there that can't be picked up in 1-3 months.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by Edd314159 on Friday November 04, 2022 @05:22AM (#33463842)
> Specific language expertise rarely matters.

+1 to this. Especially at the 16-years-experience level. Maybe earlier in someone's career where their primary focus is how to fit in and ship stuff without getting stuck all the time. But at ~staff level, your thinking and your contributions become a lot more language-agnostic (not entirely, but mostly)

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by roguas on Saturday November 05, 2022 @06:19PM (#33486507)
I would not say that clojure/haskell/elixir can be picked up in 1-3 months in most environments. I do agree that you should highlight broader engineering experience and keep langs/techs as merely a proof of some competence in those.

If the job mentions the technology and most clojure/haskell/elixir dev jobs do then well unless they state "looking for experienced person willing to learn" in description I would not bother them. (at least with my complete lack of experience in tech). Similarly as I would not apply to "weird-tech-i-merely-heard consultant". Also think there should be consistency on the job titles/descriptions on the side of job posters.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by bogomipz on Thursday November 03, 2022 @06:38PM (#33458904)
Any company that rejects your 15 years of Java and other language experience because you spent the last year working in a Clojure shop is probably not a good company to work for. And not worthy of you. Think of it as your filter.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by dfrey1 on Saturday November 05, 2022 @02:48PM (#33484402)
My company (AppsFlyer) does a ton of Clojure work, and I think they'd love to talk (though most of our R&D is in Israel). Doesn't look like they have an open position in the US listed, but I'll send this message to some of our senior Clojure people and see whether they want to talk more with you.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by kemiller on Thursday November 03, 2022 @05:08PM (#33457616)
Took me ~3-4 months of steady work, but good things are still out there.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by megablast on Thursday November 03, 2022 @06:31PM (#33458824)
> Took me ~3-4 months of steady work

Were you unemployed or working.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by ollien on Thursday November 03, 2022 @08:35PM (#33460107)
I read this as "steady work of applying to jobs"
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by kemiller on Thursday November 03, 2022 @09:51PM (#33460809)
I knew the end was coming so I started early but yeah, unemployed. It’s tougher to find senior IC positions but they are definitely out there. I love where I landed and we are hiring aggressively across all experience levels so DM me if you’re looking and don’t mind a node backend.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by DeathArrow on Thursday November 03, 2022 @05:29PM (#33457952)
Me too. I was laid off at the beginning of October. I got three good offers, picked the best and signed the contract.

I went through about 15 interviews and applied to maybe 50 positions.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jcadam on Thursday November 03, 2022 @10:03PM (#33460934)
If I were at 5-10 years experience, I'd probably have much better luck. That seems to be the sweet spot.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by ctvo on Thursday November 03, 2022 @11:28PM (#33461739)
You think there’s a difference between 10 years and 15 years? Get better at interviewing. The years of experience you put on your resume isn’t what’s losing you the job. “Too senior but willing to work for just senior rates” certainly isn’t it.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by Silhouette on Friday November 04, 2022 @09:27AM (#33466316)
Something else that tends to change around the 10 year mark is that if you prefer to continue your career with IC roles then the people interviewing and making hiring decisions will often be younger and less experienced than you. Obviously at good employers that makes no difference but ageism is certainly a factor in this industry. It's not the years of experience that are losing those jobs, it's just the years.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by dilyevsky on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:37AM (#33462248)
Are you trying to interview for principal eng positions? Imo it’s hard to do except for some super early stage enterprises no matter the market conditions
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by emodendroket on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:39AM (#33462267)
imo the meaning of "principal engineer" is wildly different between companies anyway. That means something if you're in a FAANG shop but if it's some place nobody's ever heard of it's just needed because all the midlevels already have senior titles.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by dilyevsky on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:41AM (#33462280)
Lets rephrase it as “most expensive engineer company has on its roster”
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by emodendroket on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:58AM (#33462388)
Haha, true, the last time I got this title it was when they decided to align titles based on salary.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by atraac on Friday November 04, 2022 @06:49AM (#33464538)
I have 6 years of experience and it took two months of active recruiting(since July) for me for Senior/upper Regular positions in non-faang companies. I ended up getting a pretty decent but boring project in a small company that pays really well. I applied to dozens of companies, had actual response from maybe a third of them, more than half of those offered heavily under-market salaries or ghosted me. Ended up with ~5 actual tech interviews, with three offers. Only one of them was actually interesting but they tried to undercut what I wanted by 20% after two months long recruitment process which I found disrespectful, especially since they knew what I asked for since the beginning. Chose the 'stable boring thing' in the end. So it's not that much different with 5-10 years of experience, sadly.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by refurb on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:59AM (#33462395)
I wonder what this spells for remote work?

If it’s a buyer’s market then employers can say “work in the office” - take it or leave it.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by DeathArrow on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:26AM (#33462563)
I just want to state the obvious, interviewing is a different skill than developing. You get better at interviewing with practice and the more interviews you do, the better you get.

Also, you got to be confident and toughen up before your interviews, because even if some would be interesting, constructive done in a pleasant way by nice people, many will be nasty. I got through many interviews were there were several people acting like machine guns, spitting dozens of sometimes silly questions just trying to catch me with a mistake.

Boy, how much I would wanted to switch roles a bit and show them that is not a constructive way to lead an interview.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by brailsafe on Friday November 04, 2022 @08:57AM (#33465806)
Interviewing is a skill, but luck is obviously a huge factor. My current job for a relatively mediocre salary at a smaller startup took a year and a half to find.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jongjong on Friday November 04, 2022 @09:01AM (#33465872)
I applied for around 30, interviewed with 5, got 2 offers accepted 1. I canceled 2 interviews and got only 1 rejection (they said I was too senior for the role even though it was a senior developer role).

The process is kind of random. I aced all the coding tests but ultimately I ended up accepting the offer from the only company which did not make me do a coding test.

IMO, the smartest engineers can identify talent without relying on the outcome of a coding test. Coding tests are shallow and misleading; they don't evaluate the skills that really count.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by ddyevf635372 on Thursday November 03, 2022 @09:11PM (#33460388)
It is time to apply jobs in New Zealand. Economy is strong, easy pathway to be permanent resident. Oh, and it is a beautiful country with super friendly people. https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-...
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jcadam on Thursday November 03, 2022 @10:00PM (#33460905)
Your Prime Minister scares me.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by dmix on Thursday November 03, 2022 @10:37PM (#33461292)
New Zealand gets the unfortunate legacy of having to share the "zero COVID" mantra with a small group of fellow partners like China. But otherwise I don't know much about NZ to critique.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by SkyMarshal on Thursday November 03, 2022 @10:54PM (#33461463)
Zero Covid may actually be plausible for small, isolated island nations with limited entry points, like NZ, even without locking everyone inside their homes like in China.

And it's probably wise for countries to be using COVID as a test run for something worse. We live in the age of pandemics now, and will probably get hit by something worse eventually. Something like an airborne Ebola strain (50% mortality) or airborne Rabies strain (100% mortality) are going to require a rapid, whole-of-society response to shut it down. If anything like that happens, the US and other countries that made a complete wreck of our response are going to be fucked.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by Open-Sourcery on Thursday November 03, 2022 @11:04PM (#33461537)
Pretty much everyone here lives in dense areas like the rest of the world. Limited entry points probably helped though, and being small more to do with faster, more regional decisions rather than the China way of there is COVID? Lock everything down.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by dmix on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:41AM (#33462283)
> Zero Covid may actually be plausible for small, isolated island nations with limited entry points, like NZ, even without locking everyone inside their homes like in China.

So why doesn't Japan and Sri Lanka and Hong Kong and Taiwan and every island Caribbean/Pacific nation not have limited zero-COVID policies right now? It works right? The data shows Delta is still kicking.

At least be honest they made a very serious gamble with their citizen's freedoms, the economic well being of the poor, and the livelihood of small businesses and it didn't work. And every time a compromise is made in the future it will be easier to make the second time.

You can argue it might have worked, people were scared, they were working with limited information, the media cheered them on for acting boldly, etc, etc. But that's how we evolve. We learn from mistakes. Which is critically important for discourse going forward.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by CallMeJim on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:58AM (#33462385)
NZ citizen here - zero Covid isn't plausible without regular lockdowns, for when Covid inevitably escapes quarantine.

We tried for zero Covid and failed.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by c_o_n_v_e_x on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:47AM (#33462667)
>If anything like that happens, the US and other countries that made a complete wreck of our response are going to be fucked.

A 50% or 100% mortality rate would keep even the most pro-liberty people home. The issue is that COVID was nowhere near the civilization killer that is was made out to be. Some countries/states recognized this and rightly decided to not lock society down.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by SkyMarshal on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:20PM (#33469235)
The problem is, COVID19 was essentially a zero-day, an exploit against human physiology we had never seen in the wild before, and didn't know how bad it would be in foresight.

Any response to a novel outbreak that spreads rapidly, like COVID, needs to err on the side of caution initially, until we have better knowledge of the short and long term effects.

And it wasn't a civilization killer, but US excess mortality rate during COVID exceeded total deaths of WWII, among other great cullings. It was worth taking seriously and striving for a competent response.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by plasticeagle on Thursday November 03, 2022 @11:58PM (#33462020)
NZ does not have a zero covid strategy, and never did. Pretty much all of NZ's covid restrictions have been removed, and there are thousands of reported cases at the moment.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by dmix on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:28AM (#33462200)
> The country moved to a nationwide lockdown on 17 August 2021, after the detection of one new local case outside of quarantine in Auckland.

This is the very definition of "zero-COVID".

They didn't abandon zero-COVID for another 5 months (Oct 21) when they finally admitted the data showed it didn't work.

Of course it's good they stopped using the strategy. But I remember vividly how the NZ PM promoted zero-COVID (and this was cheered by the media in Canada) as a working strategy until it no longer made sense politically or scientifically.

China has the bulk of the blame for continuing this failed strategy, but they were far from alone in the reasons why it was adopted it in the first place.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by zizee on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:06AM (#33462436)
> They didn't abandon zero-COVID for another 5 months (Oct 21) when they finally admitted the data showed it didn't work.

This doesn't sound right to me. I live in Australia, and we adopted a very similar policy. Lock down migration until a large percentage of the population was vaccinated. When the vaccine was rolled out, the restrictions eased. It wasn't because "the data showed it didn't work".

And fwiw "lockdown" for the most part meant restrictions on international travel. Most residents got to lead very regular lives for theozt part.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by dmix on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:10AM (#33462459)
So Auckland didnt lockdown their entire city after a single case?

That's exactly what China has been repeatedly criticized for doing in Shanghai and Bejing and elsewhere (and is still doing today).

Of course NZ stopped doing it after 5 months, after reviewing the data (I mean I hope they were reviewing data and evaluating the human costs).

From what I can tell the initial order (after a single case) was for 7 days in Aukland and 3 days for all surrounding cities. How long it actually lasted I'm not sure, but this merely is one example of an idea that was promoted globally.

You can pretend an entire city spending 7 days locked in their house, after a single COVID case in a city of 1.6 million, is not much to ask of people. But we might have different value systems.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by zizee on Thursday November 10, 2022 @03:46PM (#33553075)
> You can pretend an entire city spending 7 days locked in their house

You do understand that people were not actually locked in their houses in NZ? There were reports of people literally being locked in to their apartments in China, but don't confuse "lock down" with "locked in" when it comes to NZ.

In practice lock downs (at least in Aus) were stopping people going into offices or non-essential places of business, or congregating in parks or other places. Whilst definitely an imposition on people, it wasn't equivalent to what was described as happening in China.

Of course they stopped it eventually because the costs were unsustainable, and it was never intended to be a permanent solution.

The whole point was to go hard at the start, get the population vaccinated, then open back up.

I haven't checked recent numbers, but last time I did, the number of deaths in NZ/AU per capita were far lower than in the US. Which you might not consider worthwhile, but we might have different value systems.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by slantedview on Thursday November 03, 2022 @10:36PM (#33461285)
She's actually great.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by alexknowshtml on Thursday November 03, 2022 @10:34PM (#33461270)
Why?
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by SkyMarshal on Thursday November 03, 2022 @10:45PM (#33461370)
Of all the national leaders that could be considered scary - Putin, Xi Jinping, etc. - Jacinda Ardern scares you?
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by throwaway5959 on Thursday November 03, 2022 @11:00PM (#33461513)
Some people can evaluate others individually instead of relatively.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by jdminhbg on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:07AM (#33462079)
I don’t think the parent comment said he was planning to move to Russia or China instead.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by random314 on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:24AM (#33462184)
Republicans are scared of liberals.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by indecisive_user on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:33AM (#33462231)
Hi, can you please refrain from posting political flamebait here? It's not very productive, and it's against the commenting guidelines

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by emodendroket on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:36AM (#33462244)
Didn't this conversation become political flamebait with the remark about the NZ PM "scaring" someone?
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by rnkn on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:34AM (#33462604)
I think you have the wrong country, PM of NZ is Jacinda Ardern, and I mean, who doesn't like her? Bond villains?
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by dang on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:35AM (#33462605)
"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33460388.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by lalwanivikas on Thursday November 03, 2022 @11:18PM (#33461662)
*5 years to citizenship, which is not bad but not the best either.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by refurb on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:57AM (#33462381)
Low salaries, super expensive and poorly built housing, are just some of the complaints I’ve heard.

I mean there is a reason why so many Kiwi’s go work in Australia.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by ZephyrBlu on Friday November 04, 2022 @02:49AM (#33462994)
Yeah I wouldn’t advise a SWE to come to NZ unless you are fine with a big pay cut and expensive housing + food.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by tjpnz on Friday November 04, 2022 @03:42AM (#33463285)
I'm working at a company with a large cohort of Kiwi devs in Tokyo. We're literally everywhere but New Zealand.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by philliphaydon on Friday November 04, 2022 @07:36AM (#33464987)
I left NZ to go to Australia. Hated those 5 years living in Sydney. Sydney is one of the worst places I’ve been. If the choice is anywhere in NZ and Sydney I would pick NZ hands down.

Singapore on the other hand. Best 10 years ever.

Edit: the rest of Australia is nice. Especially people in Brisbane. My comments and negativity is to Sydney which is a horrrible place to live and work.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by RowanH on Friday November 04, 2022 @03:21AM (#33463167)
The economy is anything but strong. Housing skyrocketed across 20/21/22 in particular, and now coming back down with a thump, combined with big cost of living hikes things are looking grim for your average salaried worker (especially if they have a big/recent mortgage, there's some negative equity love to be had). The only thing that might save us this summer from a very dark outlook is finally the tourists are coming back.. so that might soften the landing.

For context a lot of mortgages of recent times people got at very low rates fixed for 1-2 years (https://www.asb.co.nz/documents/economic-research/home-loan-... ) and now (https://www.asb.co.nz/home-loans-mortgages/interest-rates-fe...) that's a brutal shift for people that had budgeted at 2.5% when their food bills are heading for the moon as well along with other living expenses.

Not discounting that most countries are having these problems, but it's fairly extreme here.

"Wellington continues to have the greatest proportion, with 38% of first home buyers who bought during the last three months of 2021 now in negative equity." https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/129611585/first-ho...

Job prospect wise: Devs are (and have been) enjoying a very strong market, but I think (personally) we're going to see some challenging times ahead once the retail reality of Christmas flows through. The banks had been on hiring binges (hey just like US tech co's) and they're going to wind off just as quickly as they wound on.

So come, but eyes wide open if you do. If you've got a sh*tload of money to bring with you, can get over the cost of living, there's probably some deals to be had in a year or two...

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by saiya-jin on Friday November 04, 2022 @04:52AM (#33463632)
Anybody who takes a mortgage on the edge of their affordability and combines it with 1-2 years fixation is plain stupid and lacks primary school math skills, no other way around this simple fact (there is of course almost always the factor of greed but only very simple people let it run unchecked).

As much as I don't wish anything bad to anybody, stupid people being bitten back by their stupid decisions is very low on the sympathy list for anybody, compared to say civilians being shelled at their homes because vladimir woke up pissed off this morning.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by lostlogin on Friday November 04, 2022 @05:02AM (#33463701)
Given how strict banks are, I’d be surprised if many people were in this position. A colleagues had their spend on coffee criticised by a bank, then they live well within their means.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by lostlogin on Friday November 04, 2022 @04:54AM (#33463651)
I have a lot of sympathy for first home buyers as the market is tough. However if you bought and assumed that rates would stay at 2.5% and you can afford to pay more, I haven’t a ton of sympathy.

The historic average over 10 years is approximately 6.5%.

https://www.canstar.co.nz/home-loans/what-is-the-average-hom...

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by creakingstairs on Friday November 04, 2022 @06:01AM (#33464109)
Oh man, I remember people were almost panic buying houses because it just kept going up. I briefly looked around but gave up after finding that some shitty cottage in Island Bay was selling for 800k.

At the time, almost every conversation at work kept devolving into property (oh and crypto lol) which was annoying. And what was even more annoying were people who bought that were _convinced_ that they had got a good deal, lecturing me I should buy as well.

I ended up leaving the country for better pay, lower housing cost and good amount of savings to last me a while . I hope in 2 or so years when we go back, the prices are more reasonable.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by refurb on Friday November 04, 2022 @06:26AM (#33464320)
Sounds just like Canada. Prices doubled during Covid and were already stupid high before that.

Plenty of people bought in during Covid, at the peak, at 1.X variable rates that are now north of 4% and rising.

Lots of Reddit posts from people asking “why is my pay off period 89 years now?”

It’s going to be interesting.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by brailsafe on Friday November 04, 2022 @09:00AM (#33465857)
Lol, I was just about to comment "Sounds like Canada" before reading yours. Nothing is rational here, but our tiny studio rental in Van is alright.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by someotherperson on Friday November 04, 2022 @05:16AM (#33463796)
> Oh, and it is a beautiful country with super friendly people

Yeah despite the rampant, unrelenting racism, of course. Perhaps this should be prefaced with "If you're a white European with an English name"

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by Gareth321 on Friday November 04, 2022 @06:39AM (#33464443)
As a Kiwi who left NZ, I strongly suggest looking elsewhere. Wages are just terrible for an OECD nation and unlikely to improve any time soon. This is exacerbated by system issues to cost of living. Everything from food to housing will shock you. I could go on at length about other issues, but I would recommend Australia LONG before NZ.
Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by kirso on Saturday November 05, 2022 @03:37AM (#33478902)
Thanks I was actually considering NZ as the next destination. I do think though that this is currently the case pretty much everywhere you go. In Singapore for instance the flats that were rented last year are currently 40% higher.

Why Australia?

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by Gareth321 on Sunday November 06, 2022 @01:16PM (#33495460)
+50% higher wages for the same role. Many more career opportunities. The nation is not only richer, but has a much more dynamic business culture and four times the population as New Zealand. Lower cost of living. Far better amenities and infrastructure in the cities. Lower cost of housing relative to wages. Nicer/friendlier culture. If you're single, Australia has BEAUTIFUL women compared to NZ. Australia FAAAAR better weather. A bit too hot for me in summer but NZ winters are grey, cold, wet, and miserable. Housing stock in NZ is utter shit. I'm talking cold wind blowing up through the floorboards with 100% humidity inside. I lived in many homes in NZ before leaving and in every single one I would wage up with wet windows, blankets, bedding, etc., and only spending astronomically on heating would resolve it. NZ has really terrible rates of childhood respiratory illnesses for an OECD nation for this reason.

Public transport is SO SHIT. You'll be driving everywhere. If you end up in Auckland (which you probably will), prepare for a two hour commute each way unless you live in the city. I'm not joking. Unfortunately, you don't want to live in Auckland city because it's dirty, lacks amenities, is stupid expensive for the terrible apartments, and is actually really dangerous now. The Labour government has spent five years trying to reduce the prison population, and people are rarely given prison terms anymore. People are getting regularly assaulted now and perpetrators are being sent through a "restorative justice" procedure designed to keep them out of prison. In practise this means sending a letter to their victim and doing a few hours of community service.

Gangs are a regular part of life in New Zealand now. There are members in parliament with family gang ties. Unsurprisingly, gangs are getting a free pass. This is one of my favourite headlines from the last few years: "Govt funding for gang-run meth treatment programme cleared" (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/450633/govt-funding-for-...). Spoiler: they were importing meth (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130267411/antidrug-mo...).

The health system is juuust about to collapse. I don't mean that in the modern colloquial sense. I mean thousands and thousands of staff are missing from critical positions all over the country. People are dying now. If you go to the hospital for assistance, unless you're actively dying, you could be sitting in the waiting room for days before some intern hurriedly gives you a painkiller and sends you home. NZ had a funding freeze for all healthcare workers during covid. Why? God knows. Similar issues exist in the fire service. There was one day when only four emergency line operators were on the phones for the whole country of five million people.

This one you might find controversial, depending on your politics. The current Labour government is ALL IN on racial politics. New Zealand has something called the "Treaty of Waitangi." A document signed between some Maori tribes and England a couple hundred years ago. Property disputes are still happening. The government occasionally gives these tribes billions of dollars in reparation. This might be okay, but they're getting really aggressive more recently. At the moment they're trying to pass something called the "3 Waters" bill where they give half the governing rights to drinking water in most major population hubs to a small group of Maori tribes. Permanently give away control based on race. This is in addition to them setting up a separate health system based on race. I have a colleague in government in New Zealand who has to use Maori words in official communications now, in addition to saying Maori prayers each morning, and regular mandatory Maori "cultural knowledge" training. As you might expect, they are taught that science is a "racist white construct, and traditional Maori knowledge is just as valid." So now the government pays millions of dollars when building roads to consult local Maori taniwha (spirit monster) hunters. Just to ensure that the taniwha are happy.

I could go on and on and on. I'm glad I left. I strongly urge you not to go unless you are independently wealthy and love the outdoors. NZ outdoors is really nice.

I guess this turned into more of a rant. Something like 800k Kiwis live in Australia. There is a very good reason for this.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by lostlogin on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:53AM (#33606843)
Yikes.

Glad you are happy outside of New Zealand.

Re:Stripe Announces 14% Layoff by 29athrowaway on Thursday November 03, 2022 @11:37PM (#33461825)
There are many factors contributing to this...

- Higher interest rates = Less access to capital for tech companies

- Remote work = More out-of-state and international competition for jobs based on tech hubs

- Easier to use technologies = Lower entry barrier to engineering jobs = More people switching careers and becoming software engineers

- More people opting to become software engineers

- Stacked ranking and mass layoffs