Your Prime Minister scares me.

New Zealand gets the unfortunate legacy of having to share the "zero COVID" mantra with a small group of fellow partners like China. But otherwise I don't know much about NZ to critique.

Zero Covid may actually be plausible for small, isolated island nations with limited entry points, like NZ, even without locking everyone inside their homes like in China.

And it's probably wise for countries to be using COVID as a test run for something worse. We live in the age of pandemics now, and will probably get hit by something worse eventually. Something like an airborne Ebola strain (50% mortality) or airborne Rabies strain (100% mortality) are going to require a rapid, whole-of-society response to shut it down. If anything like that happens, the US and other countries that made a complete wreck of our response are going to be fucked.

Pretty much everyone here lives in dense areas like the rest of the world. Limited entry points probably helped though, and being small more to do with faster, more regional decisions rather than the China way of there is COVID? Lock everything down.

> Zero Covid may actually be plausible for small, isolated island nations with limited entry points, like NZ, even without locking everyone inside their homes like in China.

So why doesn't Japan and Sri Lanka and Hong Kong and Taiwan and every island Caribbean/Pacific nation not have limited zero-COVID policies right now? It works right? The data shows Delta is still kicking.

At least be honest they made a very serious gamble with their citizen's freedoms, the economic well being of the poor, and the livelihood of small businesses and it didn't work. And every time a compromise is made in the future it will be easier to make the second time.

You can argue it might have worked, people were scared, they were working with limited information, the media cheered them on for acting boldly, etc, etc. But that's how we evolve. We learn from mistakes. Which is critically important for discourse going forward.

NZ citizen here - zero Covid isn't plausible without regular lockdowns, for when Covid inevitably escapes quarantine.

We tried for zero Covid and failed.

>If anything like that happens, the US and other countries that made a complete wreck of our response are going to be fucked.

A 50% or 100% mortality rate would keep even the most pro-liberty people home. The issue is that COVID was nowhere near the civilization killer that is was made out to be. Some countries/states recognized this and rightly decided to not lock society down.

The problem is, COVID19 was essentially a zero-day, an exploit against human physiology we had never seen in the wild before, and didn't know how bad it would be in foresight.

Any response to a novel outbreak that spreads rapidly, like COVID, needs to err on the side of caution initially, until we have better knowledge of the short and long term effects.

And it wasn't a civilization killer, but US excess mortality rate during COVID exceeded total deaths of WWII, among other great cullings. It was worth taking seriously and striving for a competent response.

NZ does not have a zero covid strategy, and never did. Pretty much all of NZ's covid restrictions have been removed, and there are thousands of reported cases at the moment.

> The country moved to a nationwide lockdown on 17 August 2021, after the detection of one new local case outside of quarantine in Auckland.

This is the very definition of "zero-COVID".

They didn't abandon zero-COVID for another 5 months (Oct 21) when they finally admitted the data showed it didn't work.

Of course it's good they stopped using the strategy. But I remember vividly how the NZ PM promoted zero-COVID (and this was cheered by the media in Canada) as a working strategy until it no longer made sense politically or scientifically.

China has the bulk of the blame for continuing this failed strategy, but they were far from alone in the reasons why it was adopted it in the first place.

> They didn't abandon zero-COVID for another 5 months (Oct 21) when they finally admitted the data showed it didn't work.

This doesn't sound right to me. I live in Australia, and we adopted a very similar policy. Lock down migration until a large percentage of the population was vaccinated. When the vaccine was rolled out, the restrictions eased. It wasn't because "the data showed it didn't work".

And fwiw "lockdown" for the most part meant restrictions on international travel. Most residents got to lead very regular lives for theozt part.

So Auckland didnt lockdown their entire city after a single case?

That's exactly what China has been repeatedly criticized for doing in Shanghai and Bejing and elsewhere (and is still doing today).

Of course NZ stopped doing it after 5 months, after reviewing the data (I mean I hope they were reviewing data and evaluating the human costs).

From what I can tell the initial order (after a single case) was for 7 days in Aukland and 3 days for all surrounding cities. How long it actually lasted I'm not sure, but this merely is one example of an idea that was promoted globally.

You can pretend an entire city spending 7 days locked in their house, after a single COVID case in a city of 1.6 million, is not much to ask of people. But we might have different value systems.

> You can pretend an entire city spending 7 days locked in their house

You do understand that people were not actually locked in their houses in NZ? There were reports of people literally being locked in to their apartments in China, but don't confuse "lock down" with "locked in" when it comes to NZ.

In practice lock downs (at least in Aus) were stopping people going into offices or non-essential places of business, or congregating in parks or other places. Whilst definitely an imposition on people, it wasn't equivalent to what was described as happening in China.

Of course they stopped it eventually because the costs were unsustainable, and it was never intended to be a permanent solution.

The whole point was to go hard at the start, get the population vaccinated, then open back up.

I haven't checked recent numbers, but last time I did, the number of deaths in NZ/AU per capita were far lower than in the US. Which you might not consider worthwhile, but we might have different value systems.

She's actually great.

Why?

Of all the national leaders that could be considered scary - Putin, Xi Jinping, etc. - Jacinda Ardern scares you?

Some people can evaluate others individually instead of relatively.

I don’t think the parent comment said he was planning to move to Russia or China instead.

Republicans are scared of liberals.

Hi, can you please refrain from posting political flamebait here? It's not very productive, and it's against the commenting guidelines

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Didn't this conversation become political flamebait with the remark about the NZ PM "scaring" someone?

I think you have the wrong country, PM of NZ is Jacinda Ardern, and I mean, who doesn't like her? Bond villains?

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33460388.

*5 years to citizenship, which is not bad but not the best either.

Low salaries, super expensive and poorly built housing, are just some of the complaints I’ve heard.

I mean there is a reason why so many Kiwi’s go work in Australia.

Yeah I wouldn’t advise a SWE to come to NZ unless you are fine with a big pay cut and expensive housing + food.

I'm working at a company with a large cohort of Kiwi devs in Tokyo. We're literally everywhere but New Zealand.

I left NZ to go to Australia. Hated those 5 years living in Sydney. Sydney is one of the worst places I’ve been. If the choice is anywhere in NZ and Sydney I would pick NZ hands down.

Singapore on the other hand. Best 10 years ever.

Edit: the rest of Australia is nice. Especially people in Brisbane. My comments and negativity is to Sydney which is a horrrible place to live and work.

The economy is anything but strong. Housing skyrocketed across 20/21/22 in particular, and now coming back down with a thump, combined with big cost of living hikes things are looking grim for your average salaried worker (especially if they have a big/recent mortgage, there's some negative equity love to be had). The only thing that might save us this summer from a very dark outlook is finally the tourists are coming back.. so that might soften the landing.

For context a lot of mortgages of recent times people got at very low rates fixed for 1-2 years (https://www.asb.co.nz/documents/economic-research/home-loan-... ) and now (https://www.asb.co.nz/home-loans-mortgages/interest-rates-fe...) that's a brutal shift for people that had budgeted at 2.5% when their food bills are heading for the moon as well along with other living expenses.

Not discounting that most countries are having these problems, but it's fairly extreme here.

"Wellington continues to have the greatest proportion, with 38% of first home buyers who bought during the last three months of 2021 now in negative equity." https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/129611585/first-ho...

Job prospect wise: Devs are (and have been) enjoying a very strong market, but I think (personally) we're going to see some challenging times ahead once the retail reality of Christmas flows through. The banks had been on hiring binges (hey just like US tech co's) and they're going to wind off just as quickly as they wound on.

So come, but eyes wide open if you do. If you've got a sh*tload of money to bring with you, can get over the cost of living, there's probably some deals to be had in a year or two...

Anybody who takes a mortgage on the edge of their affordability and combines it with 1-2 years fixation is plain stupid and lacks primary school math skills, no other way around this simple fact (there is of course almost always the factor of greed but only very simple people let it run unchecked).

As much as I don't wish anything bad to anybody, stupid people being bitten back by their stupid decisions is very low on the sympathy list for anybody, compared to say civilians being shelled at their homes because vladimir woke up pissed off this morning.

Given how strict banks are, I’d be surprised if many people were in this position. A colleagues had their spend on coffee criticised by a bank, then they live well within their means.

I have a lot of sympathy for first home buyers as the market is tough. However if you bought and assumed that rates would stay at 2.5% and you can afford to pay more, I haven’t a ton of sympathy.

The historic average over 10 years is approximately 6.5%.

https://www.canstar.co.nz/home-loans/what-is-the-average-hom...

Oh man, I remember people were almost panic buying houses because it just kept going up. I briefly looked around but gave up after finding that some shitty cottage in Island Bay was selling for 800k.

At the time, almost every conversation at work kept devolving into property (oh and crypto lol) which was annoying. And what was even more annoying were people who bought that were _convinced_ that they had got a good deal, lecturing me I should buy as well.

I ended up leaving the country for better pay, lower housing cost and good amount of savings to last me a while . I hope in 2 or so years when we go back, the prices are more reasonable.

Sounds just like Canada. Prices doubled during Covid and were already stupid high before that.

Plenty of people bought in during Covid, at the peak, at 1.X variable rates that are now north of 4% and rising.

Lots of Reddit posts from people asking “why is my pay off period 89 years now?”

It’s going to be interesting.

Lol, I was just about to comment "Sounds like Canada" before reading yours. Nothing is rational here, but our tiny studio rental in Van is alright.

> Oh, and it is a beautiful country with super friendly people

Yeah despite the rampant, unrelenting racism, of course. Perhaps this should be prefaced with "If you're a white European with an English name"

As a Kiwi who left NZ, I strongly suggest looking elsewhere. Wages are just terrible for an OECD nation and unlikely to improve any time soon. This is exacerbated by system issues to cost of living. Everything from food to housing will shock you. I could go on at length about other issues, but I would recommend Australia LONG before NZ.

Thanks I was actually considering NZ as the next destination. I do think though that this is currently the case pretty much everywhere you go. In Singapore for instance the flats that were rented last year are currently 40% higher.

Why Australia?

+50% higher wages for the same role. Many more career opportunities. The nation is not only richer, but has a much more dynamic business culture and four times the population as New Zealand. Lower cost of living. Far better amenities and infrastructure in the cities. Lower cost of housing relative to wages. Nicer/friendlier culture. If you're single, Australia has BEAUTIFUL women compared to NZ. Australia FAAAAR better weather. A bit too hot for me in summer but NZ winters are grey, cold, wet, and miserable. Housing stock in NZ is utter shit. I'm talking cold wind blowing up through the floorboards with 100% humidity inside. I lived in many homes in NZ before leaving and in every single one I would wage up with wet windows, blankets, bedding, etc., and only spending astronomically on heating would resolve it. NZ has really terrible rates of childhood respiratory illnesses for an OECD nation for this reason.

Public transport is SO SHIT. You'll be driving everywhere. If you end up in Auckland (which you probably will), prepare for a two hour commute each way unless you live in the city. I'm not joking. Unfortunately, you don't want to live in Auckland city because it's dirty, lacks amenities, is stupid expensive for the terrible apartments, and is actually really dangerous now. The Labour government has spent five years trying to reduce the prison population, and people are rarely given prison terms anymore. People are getting regularly assaulted now and perpetrators are being sent through a "restorative justice" procedure designed to keep them out of prison. In practise this means sending a letter to their victim and doing a few hours of community service.

Gangs are a regular part of life in New Zealand now. There are members in parliament with family gang ties. Unsurprisingly, gangs are getting a free pass. This is one of my favourite headlines from the last few years: "Govt funding for gang-run meth treatment programme cleared" (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/450633/govt-funding-for-...). Spoiler: they were importing meth (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130267411/antidrug-mo...).

The health system is juuust about to collapse. I don't mean that in the modern colloquial sense. I mean thousands and thousands of staff are missing from critical positions all over the country. People are dying now. If you go to the hospital for assistance, unless you're actively dying, you could be sitting in the waiting room for days before some intern hurriedly gives you a painkiller and sends you home. NZ had a funding freeze for all healthcare workers during covid. Why? God knows. Similar issues exist in the fire service. There was one day when only four emergency line operators were on the phones for the whole country of five million people.

This one you might find controversial, depending on your politics. The current Labour government is ALL IN on racial politics. New Zealand has something called the "Treaty of Waitangi." A document signed between some Maori tribes and England a couple hundred years ago. Property disputes are still happening. The government occasionally gives these tribes billions of dollars in reparation. This might be okay, but they're getting really aggressive more recently. At the moment they're trying to pass something called the "3 Waters" bill where they give half the governing rights to drinking water in most major population hubs to a small group of Maori tribes. Permanently give away control based on race. This is in addition to them setting up a separate health system based on race. I have a colleague in government in New Zealand who has to use Maori words in official communications now, in addition to saying Maori prayers each morning, and regular mandatory Maori "cultural knowledge" training. As you might expect, they are taught that science is a "racist white construct, and traditional Maori knowledge is just as valid." So now the government pays millions of dollars when building roads to consult local Maori taniwha (spirit monster) hunters. Just to ensure that the taniwha are happy.

I could go on and on and on. I'm glad I left. I strongly urge you not to go unless you are independently wealthy and love the outdoors. NZ outdoors is really nice.

I guess this turned into more of a rant. Something like 800k Kiwis live in Australia. There is a very good reason for this.

Yikes.

Glad you are happy outside of New Zealand.