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Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by electroly on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:31AM (#33234942)
This is why 4-20 mA is a common signaling standard in industrial automation. 4 mA means zero and 20 mA means one. 0 mA means broken transmitter!
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by crgwbr on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:40AM (#33235101)
Interesting. That makes sense, but what’s the reason for using current instead of voltage as the variable?
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by mschuster91 on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:42AM (#33235126)
Current flow is independent of wire length, the sender only has to turn up the voltage high enough to overcome the wire resistance.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by adrian_b on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:04PM (#33235502)
This happens because the real insulators are better approximations of ideal insulators, than real conductors are approximations of ideal conductors.

In electrical circuits made with normal conductors and insulators, e.g. copper wires and organic polymer insulators, it is possible to ignore the currents that branch from the wires and close through the insulators, because they are extremely small (e.g. in the femtoampere range), but frequently it is not possible to ignore the voltage drops along the copper wires, which are caused by the resistances of the wires, and which may be in the millivolt range.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by lisper on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:11PM (#33235623)
I have a bachelors degree in electrical engineering and work experience in hardware design and in the back of my mind I've always known this to be true, but this is the first time in my life I've ever heard anyone say this explicitly. EE pedagogy is badly broken in places.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by freedomben on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:39PM (#33236069)
Indeed, when discussing theory we love pretending that there's no voltage drop from the wires, which can really bite you when you get into design or deep failure analysis. All good technicians and engineers learn this reality fairly soon, and it's one of the things we check especially when dealing with indeterminate failures.

As much as I love academia, I really wish there were more instructors with real experience that could say things like, "for math purposes assume a zero-loss conductor" while still emphasizing that real life is not so simple.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by deepspace on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:00PM (#33236440)
Maybe it has to do with the culture at specific schools. As I mentioned in another comment, my instructors loved to include wire resistance in their problems, and always explicitly stated the zero-loss assumption when applicable.

We did have a healthy incubation program, where instructors helped companies with product development, so perhaps that is what brought the real-world experience.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by deepspace on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:55PM (#33236342)
As another EE, I had the opposite experience. Voltage drops due to wire resistance and transmission losses were drilled into our heads at any possible opportunity.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by hermitdev on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:28PM (#33236883)
Difference between focusing on digital vs analog, maybe? As another EE, I vaguely recall this being pounded into us more in power systems than any of my digital electronics courses.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by ip26 on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:06PM (#33242502)
Sounds like you missed the “actually, all those digital wires are transmission lines” class :)
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by mschuster91 on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:51PM (#33237958)
> EE pedagogy is badly broken in places.

Generally, the biggest problem with math, physics and chemistry is that if you miss just one lesson (no matter if you physically miss it, or in worst case miss out understanding a concept for a couple minutes), you can easily end up "left behind" for years. With history, arts, languages, a number of computer science topics or most of biology you can either skip out on a certain subject or catch up easily on your own, but not getting a specific part in math/physics/chemistry and lacking the resources to follow up is setting oneself up for exponential learning gap later on.

The societal problem is that we've not set up schools or universities to deal with this "failure mode". Privileged kids can have after-school teaching or siblings helping out, but most will sooner or later resign and hate these subjects for the rest of their lives - and that is incredibly sad.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by nrb on Monday October 17, 2022 @09:57PM (#33242093)
If only we had the technology to somehow record lessons for later viewing or for refreshing knowledge later, and additional catch-up materials & deeper dives into the topics. This seems like extremely low-hanging fruit.

Why do I get a sneaking suspicion that few in the machinery of education want this, as it is a fast-track to continuous accountability?

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by BenjiWiebe on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:55PM (#33238016)
You will also get voltage drops from the sensors using power along your current loop as well, no? Whereas current will be the same along the entire loop all the time.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by sjruckle on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:46AM (#33235182)
Also, there's greater immunity to interference and poor connections.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by tfigment on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:26PM (#33235869)
1-5 V is also common. You can convert between the 2 with a resistor.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by SnowHill9902 on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:30PM (#33235939)
Charge is conserved whereas voltage (i.e. electric field differential) is not.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by akelly on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:27PM (#33236867)
High impedance (low current flow) signals are more prone to electrical interference. This is particularly bad when you're running long wires across a factory with big electric machines running. And if your signals are low impedance (significant current flow), then you get voltage drop across your long wire, so you can't use voltage-based signaling.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by janpot on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:49AM (#33235235)
or why we build a stop command with normal-closed contacts. a broken wire results in the same signal as a "stop" command.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by phkahler on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:08PM (#33235564)
Semantics are really important in these situations. We have a system with an E-stop (emergency stop) circuit. Any break in the loop and the system will shut off. It needed to work together with one particular vendors board that insisted on having a "hardware enable" signal that it could control. Rather than adding an additional circuit, someone decided to have "hardware enable" flip a normally open relay in the E-stop circuit. Technically this "works" because enable clears the E-stop condition and allows the thing to function. From a practical point of view this has caused no end of odd problems, particularly when diagnosing issues where things fail because the meaning of this signal has been compromised.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by oasisbob on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:56PM (#33237357)
This reminds me of what I've seen happen with the internal health-check endpoint often added to APIs. Simple at first, but eventually there are endpoints to cause the health-check to synthetically fail for deployment purposes; the health-check is also monitoring downstream dependencies; the health-check becomes much more and much less than it was intended to be.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by mauvehaus on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:02PM (#33235475)
If you're doing three-wire control [0], it also means you can add additional "stop" buttons by wiring them all into the circuit in series.

A nice-to-have addition to your table saw is a big red stop button you can reach with your foot so you don't have to take your hands off of your work pieces to shut the saw down if things have gotten more interesting than you expected them to. Three wire control makes this super easy to add (once you've found the big red mushroom-head n/c switch, of course).

[0] https://twcontrols.com/lessons/control-wiring-3-wire-control...

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Akronymus on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @04:52AM (#33244646)
I think for a foot pedal, it'd make more sense to have an enable rather than e-stop. Altough, that also depends on if you only work from one location or many. (Presses in industry often use such a design for hands, so that it ensures you hands aren't in the press.)
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by hedora on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:52AM (#33235298)
It is also why white traffic lights no longer mean "go".

White means "the red glass lens in front of the incandescent bulb shattered again".

Related, from train signals:

> The invention of the track circuit in 1872 by William Robinson permitted automatic block signals. Most simply, a low voltage battery current runs up one rail and down the other. As long as current flows from the battery through one rail to the relay and back through the other rail, the relay remains energized and routes current from another battery to the green lamp of a clear signal. But when a train is present, the circuit is short circuited by the steel wheels and axles of the cars; a broken rail or an open switch will also break the circuit. As a result the relay is opened and the signal displays red. The system is arranged so the failure of any component results in a red indication or a dark signal (which must be interpreted as the most restrictive aspect that signal can display).

https://www.trains.com/trn/train-basics/abcs-of-railroading/...

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by acdha on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:38PM (#33236065)
Train air brakes are similar in failing safely for the same written-in-blood reasons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_air_brake

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by bombcar on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:47PM (#33236181)
Some military trucks are designed the opposite way on purpose - because they’d rather have no brakes and be able to move than be stuck on the battlefield.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by driverdan on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:06PM (#33236546)
Not in the US. US trucks are built using standard truck parts, including off-the-shelf air brakes that fail safe.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by m463 on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:44PM (#33238571)
they didn't always fail safe.

I remember a house at the bottom of a steep mountain grade that got plowed into on a regular basis especially during that time.

EDIT: hmm... seems freezing might still be a way to cause failure?

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by kevinpet on Monday October 17, 2022 @09:48PM (#33242040)
Failure at the bottom of a steep hill is a different type of failure caused by brake fade due to the brake drum swelling with heat as the truck goes down the hill.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by m463 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @07:24PM (#33255453)
But I believe at some point air brakes had to be reversed by law.

In other words, the brakes would apply on loss of pressure, instead of via pressure.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by nordsieck on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:02PM (#33236469)
> Some military trucks are designed the opposite way on purpose - because they’d rather have no brakes and be able to move than be stuck on the battlefield.

Do you have any details on that? Or a source I could read? I'm pretty curious now.

I drove trucks in the military - specifically, FMTV, HEMTT, HMMWV, and 5 tons. None of them had the reverse brakes you describe.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by bombcar on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:05PM (#33236527)
The deuce/half air-over-hydraulic brakes fail open (loss of air pressure leaves you with hydraulic brakes alone, loss of hydraulic leaves you with no brakes at all). However, there is a failure mode that leaves the brakes full on if the air cylinder jams.

At the time it was an acceptable trade-off; later military vehicles have more in common with trucks than tanks, I suspect.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by thaeli on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:09PM (#33240145)
Losing brake boost in a failure condition is the typical failure mode in most vehicles with hydraulic brakes. A hydroboost failure in modern medium trucks reduces braking performance just as much as an air pack failure in the deuce and is just as scary..

The brakes, unboosted, are supposed to still be capable of stopping the vehicle. This is also why hybrid and electric vehicles with regenerative braking, that normally use brake-by-wire with a pedal feel simulator, fail through to using the PFS as a direct unboosted hydraulic cylinder.

Losing all brakes in a hydraulic circuit failure is just because those trucks are so old they only have single circuit hydraulic brakes. Part of the A3 upgrades was changing over to a modern dual circuit hydraulic system.

So basically, the issue is that medium trucks are in a weird in-between. Not heavy enough to require full air brakes, but heavy enough that some of the safety assumptions we make about light vehicles are potentially less true.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by mkr-hn on Monday October 17, 2022 @10:57PM (#33242457)
They have a way to change tire inflation to suit the terrain. I wonder if they can change the failsafe direction of the brakes to suit the situation.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by acdha on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:54PM (#33236324)
That’s a great example of how you always have to design for a context.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by bombcar on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:03PM (#33236493)
Yeah, any design is going to be various trade-offs, and you have to understand them (and how they may relate to your mission) when determining what to do and what would be a bad decision.

For example, cars have "fail open" brakes but have independent cylinders so that it is relatively hard to have all four wheels fail at the same time (older cars had single master cylinders) - and one of the tradeoffs is that people want cars to get going immediately and not wait for brake cylinders to "charge up".

As more and more things get computerized, you have more options for "intelligent failover" - anyone who used to drive an old manual car knew you could slow down using the engine - but now the computer could detect brake failure and do things for you to help recover.

And as seen from other comments, the modern US military prioritizes "on-road safety" over "under ongoing attack ability" - partially because of changing strategies I suspect, but also from the realization that the US military kills more members of the US military each year via accidents, etc, than anything else.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Gordonjcp on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:53PM (#33239389)
Pretty much every car made since the 1980s has had dual-circuit brakes with usually one front and one rear wheel cylinder on each circuit. Volvo being Volvo took it further with their 2-series cars in the 1970s and 1980s, where the front discs had four-pot calipers configured as two sets of two-pot calipers. Each braking circuit had one half of each front caliper and one rear caliper, so in the event of one half of the brakes failing it would still stop in a straight line.

You can use engine braking in automatic vehicles too, by simply changing to a lower gear.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by ddingus on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:25PM (#33239701)
There is one subtle difference between automatic transmissions and manual ones and that is the manual one will allow a shift into a lower gear even when engine damage is likely.

An automatic one will not, and will hold the current gear until car speed falls within shifting range.

Ask me how I know :)

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by bombcar on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:02PM (#33240088)
Yeah, newer ones can be too smart for your own good (but not theirs) - older ones had no problem with you slamming it into reverse or park at freeway speeds - ask me how I know!
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Arrath on Monday October 17, 2022 @07:03PM (#33240667)
Ahhh, the classic money shift.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by ehnto on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:14PM (#33242555)
I am reminded of a friend who changed his steering wheel plastic trim, in the process he bumped the wheel position sensor out of calibration. No worries, trigger a recalibration. Uh oh, won't recalibrate.

This of course meant the entire cars safety and stability control systems, ABS and traction control were all disabled. It drove like a tank.

The fix, obviously, was to replace the brake booster primer pump (hybrid car). It had worn enough to no longer recalibrate. Still perfectly functional, and would have kept working for a long time, bit it wouldn't quite meet the factory expected parameters so it failed it's test.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Gordonjcp on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @11:46AM (#33249177)
According to the other guy that founded the Range Rover forum I run, in the 1990s when they were getting P38s as traffic cars the training for "really really stop right now" was to throw it into reverse at 70mph and plant the throttle.

It appears that ZF 4HP20/4HP22 gearboxes can do this an unlimited number of times without apparently being damaged, but I'm not trying it on either of mine.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by ddingus on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @01:45PM (#33251202)
I have always wanted to try that! I'm not going to try it on any car I own either. It is all just super high risk, and I just don't have a spare car laying around that has the beans to pull that off.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Gordonjcp on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @11:44AM (#33249131)
Depends on the gearbox. Really modern ones won't, anything more than about ten years old will downshift if you select a lower gear.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by ddingus on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @01:48PM (#33251246)
Well, I have a 2000 Honda that won't do it. And I had an 03 Kia that also won't do it.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by bombcar on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:13PM (#33239580)
Yeah - but as we saw with the floormat/unintended acceleration, many people don't think of it in an emergency (all the fatalities could have been avoided by shifting into neutral in those cases, might have blown up the engine but wouldn't have crashed/killed).
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Gordonjcp on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @11:43AM (#33249119)
It's something you're taught to do as part of your driving test, or at least you were when I sat mine.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by xani_ on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:17PM (#33239614)
> For example, cars have "fail open" brakes but have independent cylinders so that it is relatively hard to have all four wheels fail at the same time (older cars had single master cylinders) - and one of the tradeoffs is that people want cars to get going immediately and not wait for brake cylinders to "charge up".

And emergency brake that's wholly separate circuit.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by mcspiff on Monday October 17, 2022 @08:56PM (#33241692)
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by usrbinenv on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:26PM (#33235858)
A bit of an off-topic: I only ever saw white traffic lights in the US and Canada (specifically, pedestrian traffic lights) and they confused me a lot at first - the rest of the world uses green. The icons displayed (hands) are confusing too: the rest of the world uses an icon of a man walking or standing.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by MBCook on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:30PM (#33235923)
I’ve never seen a white traffic light, but pedestrian crossing lights are often white/red still.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by wongarsu on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:45PM (#33237179)
Are you suggesting I'm doing worse on Google Captchas because I consider pedestrian crossing lights as a form of traffic lights but Americans don't?
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by smolder on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:58PM (#33237382)
Possibly. I think people in the US strongly associate "traffic" with cars and don't generally think of the crosswalk indicators as "traffic lights".
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by MBCook on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:08PM (#33242514)
As an American I totally agree with that. I would never think to include the cross walk lights.

If you asked for “signal lights” I could see it. But not traffic.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by andirk on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:05PM (#33237461)
Best choices to pick on captcha are not what you think is pictured but what you think most people think is pictured.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by wongarsu on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:30PM (#33237738)
Since about 60% of the visitors of most English-speaking websites are American, I assume that requires finding the American answer. But that requires me to jump not just a language barrier but also a cultural barrier to figure out nuances like "what constitutes a traffic light? Do pedestrian lights count? Do the poles and cables count, or just the light-emitting part?" "What constitutes a street sign" "Is a Mecedes Sprinter with windows a bus (it's one of wikipedia's example of a minibus)?".

In the end the known unknowns aren't that bad, just assume laziness and choose whatever checks the least boxes. But the unknown unknowns are regular culture shocks. Like pedestrian lights not being considered traffic lights.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by djhn on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:55PM (#33239402)
Buses are bad, but I feel trucks are even worse. Or actually vehicles in general. What does a Venn diagram of cars and trucks look like? Are Vespas and trikes motorcycles?
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by MBCook on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:00PM (#33238061)
I’ve never had an issue, but I’m American. So if it’s expecting American centric answers that would make perfect sense.

So many not what most people would pick, but what Americans would pick?

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by malloci on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:04PM (#33236514)
The hand is to mimic that of a traffic cop. When they want you to stop, they hold up their hand to indicate that you need to stop.

It used to be that you had to know english in order to understand them as well...many of the signs used to use the words "walk" and "don't walk"

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by usrbinenv on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:28PM (#33236897)
I guess my point is that it was still confusing. It took me a day or two to acquire a reflex. It obviously doesn't matter in the long run - you just get used to it - but I wonder why would US & Canada go a different way with regards to so many small things (think turn signals on cars being red for american cars as another example)? What would be the rationale? It's as if the western hemisphere was completely cut off from the rest of the world and had no idea how others were doing things. I don't quite understand it.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by ianferrel on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:51PM (#33237278)
>I wonder why would US & Canada go a different way with regards to so many small things (think turn signals on cars being red for american cars as another example)?

In many cases the US were the first to mass-manufacture things to some kind of standard, so the question is really: why did the rest of the world choose a different standard. Often they have a good reason (better design, maybe), but the US also has a good reason for not switching (inertia, existing tooling, people understand the existing standard).

The US was the first place that traffic light and crossing signals were installed. The reason they didn't go with the standard the rest of the world uses is that it didn't exist.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by zoover2020 on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:29PM (#33237730)
And standards don't adapt? To me this feels wrong and backwards
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by randomdata on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:42PM (#33237873)
They do when there is good reason, but there isn't always good reason.

In fact, a theoretically better standard could actually be worse in some situations if people are accustomed to a different standard. Imagine if America had settled on red for go and green for stop, and then tried to change the standard to match the rest of the world. It would be a calamity as some drivers continued to adhere to the old standard that they knew.

Stop signs were originally yellow, so such a change isn't unprecedented, but in that case they also contained the word STOP so the colour wasn't critical to understanding the sign. Standards can more easily change when there is backwards compatibility available. More recently, some jurisdictions have started adopting traffic light shapes (square = stop, diamond = caution, circle = go) but retain coloured lights for backwards compatibility.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by ianferrel on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:39PM (#33237844)
They do sometimes.

Like, the WALK / DONT WALK crossing signals that were around in my youth were slowly replaced with the HAND / WALKING PERSON ones, I'm sure because they're better for people who don't read English.

But also there is a cost to change, and it's often not worth doing if the benefit from the new system or standard isn't a lot better than the old.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by creeble on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:39PM (#33239238)
Indeed, sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

Why doesn't the rest of the world (outside the US) have a 3rd middle brake light (CHMSL), as was mandated in the US in 1986?

My guess is because, despite measurements of ~22% crash avoidance at the time, that number turned out to be between 0% and 4% in practice. Maybe the rest of the world didn't care about 4%, or maybe they thought it was as stupid then as it turned out to be.

But the CHMSL standard in the US has refused to die.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by greycol on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:22PM (#33240278)
When ATMs were first implemented they would dispense money before or at the same time as giving your card back.

This resulted in premature conclusion errors. They went to the ATM to get money. They got their money so they left... forgetting their card.

When ATMs were updated they fixed the design error. Now the card popped out and had to be removed before money would dispense. This resulted in a spike of people leaving with money hanging out of the ATM because they had been trained that removing their card was the end of the task. (Which is why money now gets sucked back into the machine if it hasn't been removed fast enough).

The point of the anecdote (other than that you hire HCI experts before implementing an interface) is that implementing a new and objectively better system doesn't necessarily result in an objectively better outcome when replacing an incumbent worse system.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by romwell on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:06PM (#33237467)
The curse of innovation: you might end up being stuck with it while the rest of the world learns from your mistakes.

Case in point: Ma Bell. And things like signing the credit card receipt.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by throw827474737 on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:47PM (#33239954)
> In many cases the US were the first to mass-manufacture..

Traffic lights? Not so many actually?

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by metabagel on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:16PM (#33237558)
"It's as if the western hemisphere was completely cut off from the rest of the world and had no idea how others were doing things. I don't quite understand it."

Seems like you understand it fairly well. I can't speak for Canada, but the U.S. mostly ignores how other parts of the world do things.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Lukas_Skywalker on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:34PM (#33237783)
Since this is HN, and I'm a pedant: reflexes can't be acquired, since they are not processed by the brain, but by the spinal cord, without involvement of the brain (e.g. pulling back the hand when touching a hot surface).

What you're thinking of is called procedural memory, which helps you perform a task without being consciously aware of it (hitting a fast baseball, looking left/right when crossing a street).

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by samatman on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:02PM (#33238088)
This is quite far from being the case.

Dr. Pavlov's seminal book is generally translated as Conditioned Reflexes. Saliva in response to a bell is a reflex, and it's an acquired one.

Not falling flat on our face when we step forward is also reflexive, as is catching something thrown to us. Both are acquired through rather lengthy processes.

There are many similar examples.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Lukas_Skywalker on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:16PM (#33239608)
The term reflex has changed over the years.

Back in 1649, when Descartes formulated the concept of a reflex, it was used to describe lower animals, to support his notion that they were automata without a mind on their own. The word reflex originated from the "reflection" of the sensory input into a response. The physiological backgrounds were not yet known.

In the early 19th century, Hall narrowed the definition of a reflex to be a "involuntary action of a muscle or gland in response to the stimulation of a receptor neurone which does not depend on the existence of consciousness".

Sherrington, in 1904, narrowed the definition further, introducing the concept of the "reflex arc", a hardwired pathway between receptors and effector muscles.

Pavlov later did a strange thing and widened the definition, which is the source of some confusion. Nowadays, Pavlov's Conditioned Reflexes are mostly called Conditioned Responses, to avoid this exact confusion. NB: there are people arguing that conditioned is a mistranslation, and that it should mean conditional, which makes more sense in the context.

Pretty much every current publication uses the term "reflex" for involuntary, inborn responses, detected by receptors, transported to the spinal cord by afferent nerve fibers, processed there, and the motor signal sent through the efferent nerve fibers to the effector muscles. I only found the term "conditioned reflex" in papers discussing Pavlov's experiment.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by oangemangut on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:40PM (#33239871)
:D I have a few of the "Walk" (in white) and "DON'T WALK" (in orange) signals around me in PNW.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by kevincox on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:06PM (#33236543)
I may be biased because I am used to the hand but I find the walk and hand shapes are very distinctive compared to the walk and stand.

However green on walk would be nice.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Arainach on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:33PM (#33236969)
Clearly everyone should adopt the (East) Berlin standard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelm%C3%A4nnchen

Very visually distinct, walking and standing, and green/red.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by lostcolony on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:54PM (#33237995)
I find them far less distinct than a walking person and a hand...and if I was colorblind that would be a large problem for me (and colorblindness was the reason for distinguishing the shape in the first place, so makes sense to have very different shapes rather than both "stick figure with hat").
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by jrumbut on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:03PM (#33238094)
Any kind of figure triggers the walk reaction from me (or it did until someone finally clued me in on a trip to Europe).

My working theory had been green figure means cross, red figure means cross with caution, like a flashing red hand in the US.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by mdavidn on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:29PM (#33237722)
I always assumed the pedestrian light was white to avoid confusion with the green traffic light for parallel drivers.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by knorker on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:51PM (#33237292)
And they call it "green", despite the fact that it's obviously white.

I agree with you. When I'm in the US I keep scanning for a green light, so it takes me a while to find "the white man" telling me it's OK to cross.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Manu40 on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:10PM (#33237504)
Don't know about Eastern Canada, but over in Western Canada, the only white signal light is the walking person symbol for cross walks. Otherwise, it's Red, Yellow, Green lights for the traffic, and a red hand or white walker for crossing the street.

Just figured I'd mention that.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by gpm on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:15PM (#33237555)
I don't know that I've seen all of eastern Canada, but of the parts of it that I have seen the exact same is true.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by reaperducer on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:17PM (#33238263)
the rest of the world uses green.

Only if you define the rest of the world to mean the very small percentage of places in the world you have been.

From Wikipedia:

In some countries, instead of "don't walk", a depiction of a red man or hand indicating when not to cross, the drawing of the person crossing appears with an "X" drawn over it.

Some countries around the Baltic Sea in Scandinavia duplicate the red light. Instead of one red light, there are two which both illuminate at the same time.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by smoochy on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:19PM (#33239637)
I've been to all continents except maybe Australia. Only North America has the weird white light for pedestrians and a red palm (which also blinks, which is very counter-intuitive). I can assure, most countries of the world use red and green icons of man standing/walking for pedestrians.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by kevin_thibedeau on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:26PM (#33240313)
It's a retrofit of the older WALK/DONT WALK signs.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by reaperducer on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:38PM (#33240403)
I've been to all continents except maybe Australia

Maybe Australia? You don't remember if you've been to Australia?

Congratulations! I've never been so drunk that I didn't know which continent I was on.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by callalex on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:34PM (#33238452)
The white crossing indicator lead to a hilarious situation for me once. I am colorblind and always assumed the walking guy is green just like car signals. One day when a person I was hosting from Indonesia was walking in downtown San Francisco with me, we were talking about traffic conventions. He said to me “Here things are very easy. You just wait for the white man and then you cross!” I thought he was making an poor-taste joke about following the locals when traveling, and it took quite a while to clear everything up! And I learned something new about my own country’s traffic signals.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by yamtaddle on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:45PM (#33238589)
I would think you'd specifically want to avoid displaying lights of the same color as "go" for auto traffic, for purposes other than telling auto traffic to "go". So I'd be inclined to avoid green for pedestrian "go", if I were designing such a system. But maybe that's not actually a problem, IDK.

> The icons displayed (hands) are confusing too: the rest of the world uses an icon of a man walking or standing.

Is a hand held up, palm-out, not a signal for "stop" in places other than the US or Canada? I wouldn't assume it's universal, but I'd expect it's got broader reach than that.

Besides, again, I'd personally assume it'd be better to have very different icons for "walk" and "don't walk". Not two different depictions of a person.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by layer8 on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:50PM (#33238666)
It can also mean “Greetings, Earthling”.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by dang on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:49PM (#33240528)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33235298.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by stewx on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:51PM (#33236266)
We have white traffic lights now in Canada for "transit advance", when buses are allowed to proceed before the rest of traffic.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by fknorangesite on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:01PM (#33236459)
Yes but it's also a different symbol - a vertical line rather than the full circle (at least in my experience).
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by qwezxcrty on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:49PM (#33238651)
Also common in Europe (CH, D).
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by rkagerer on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:44PM (#33238575)
Would they have breaks (gaps) to segment the track into distinct stretches of conductors?

How far down the line would the supply voltage run (or how far away would a train complete the circuit) before resistance losses degrade the system?

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by thaeli on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:16PM (#33240219)
Yes, insulators were (and still are) used between track blocks.

The maximum length of a block with this system (versions of which are still used today) varies greatly depending on local conditions. I've seen 2k to 10k feet as a general performance range.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by martyvis on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:01PM (#33238797)
Similarly train brakes are failsafe. They operate by compressed air. Being connected to the locomotive and hence control allows them to be released. If the carriages become disconnected, brakes get applied.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by peterleiser on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:01PM (#33235449)
Alarm systems use the "End of Line" resistor concept. The alarm triggers when a sensor is opened and current flow stops. Closed is ambiguous because it could mean power is flowing through all closed sensors OR there is a short (alarm panels handle shorts). A resistor allows the panel to consider 0 Ohms a short and some specific number of Ohms as closed and working. It apparently also provides a way to detect tampering of the wires.

https://www.alarmsystemstore.com/pages/all-about-resistors

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Unklejoe on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:26PM (#33235865)
Another example is how garage door opener trip-beams work (the sensors that detect if something is in the way before lowering the door).

The transmitter and receiver are wired in parallel and connected to a power supply through a series resistor. When the receiver receives the signal from the transmitter, it pulls the supply voltage down, which then causes the transmitter to stop transmitting, which then causes the receiver to stop pulling the supply down, and the cycle continues. The end result is that if there's no obstruction, the supply voltage pulses and the system checks for this. If there's any other type of condition, the signal is either 0 or VCC. Basically, the system is designed so that false positives are extremely unlikely since that's the worst case scenario.

There's some capacitors in the transmitter/receiver to control the frequency.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Gordonjcp on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:51PM (#33239353)
Gas central heating boilers use something similar to control the gas solenoid - the solenoid is fed through a biggish capacitor, which has a diode and a capacitor to "smooth" the pulses from the microcontroller. If the microcontroller output latches itself on, the capacitor charges fully, there are no more pulses, and the solenoid drops out.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by blep_ on Monday October 17, 2022 @07:58PM (#33241211)
That sounds very complicated. What advantage does it have over wiring the two in series and having an open circuit indicate an obstruction?

edit: it gets you protection against one of the two failing closed, duh

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by mananaysiempre on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:44PM (#33237166)
Also why a standard keyboard has a Break key: used to be that a telegraph station would have a bell that rang if it detected a broken connection (a “break condition”), then people figured that deliberately inducing a break was a handy way to alert the remote operator. I think the first automated telegraph systems actually used current-loop signalling, but I’m not sure about the first practical ones; in any case, the concept carried over into modern (well, 70s-vintage) asynchronous lines—most UARTs nowadays have a break interrupt that you can enable.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by sneak on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:36PM (#33239826)
I have a standard keyboard and it has no break key.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by mananaysiempre on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:07PM (#33240128)
To clarify, by a “standard” keyboard I mean a (usually US) QWERTY PC keyboard with 101 to 105 keys (depending on the amount of Win/Super and Menu keys and the presence of an additional punctuation key to the left of Z). Those have three rows of three keys each above the arrows (not counting any “media keys” such as Power); the topmost one of those is PrintScreen / SysRq, Scroll Lock, and Pause / Break, though some of those labels may be omitted. I honestly have never seen a full-size PC keyboard without those. (How am I supposed to hit Ctrl-Break or Win-Break otherwise?)

Strictly speaking, there is no Break key in the same sense that there is no SysRq key—there are only special Break and SysRq scancodes that AT and PS/2 keyboards send instead of Pause and Print Screen when Ctrl or Alt respectively is depressed (thus the combined labels), while USB keyboards don’t even have those, they just send normal modifier sequences. But I don’t think that’s what you had in mind :)

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by sneak on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:57PM (#33240597)
I know what you meant. I was implying that a 101-105 key keyboard has not been standard for a decade or more.

I would be willing to bet that none of the ten most popular/best-selling computers in the country for the last 5-10 years have had a key that says “break”.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by ninjanomnom on Monday October 17, 2022 @07:24PM (#33240883)
You're talking about laptops which you're right, are probably more popular than desktops, but taking a look right now at a few different laptops near me shows they have break as a function key. Take 3 data points as you will.

I'll take that bet and offer up a break key from my active keyboard if I'm wrong.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by jackvalentine on Monday October 17, 2022 @07:27PM (#33240918)
The 10 most popular/bestselling computers in the last 10 years definitely would include the Dell optiplex line that comes standard with a full size keyboard that has a Pause/Break key.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by sneak on Monday October 17, 2022 @09:41PM (#33241991)
Nope, they’re all laptops.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by int_19h on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @04:49PM (#33267754)
Even on laptops, there's still usually a Pause/Break key, it's just merged with something else such that you have to use Fn.

For example, on most modern Thinkpads, Pause is Fn+P, and thus Break is Ctrl+Fn+P.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by cafeinux on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:22PM (#33240272)
It's also named "Pause key", but one could argue that if your keyboard doesn't have any of these two keys, it cannot really be called "standard".
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by xani_ on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:15PM (#33239598)
That's why in our monitoring we used nagios scheme + 1 (0 for invalid, 1 for ok, 2 for warning, 3 for crit, 4 for unknown)
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by jallmann on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:16PM (#33239601)
Also issue with golang (+ protobufs) where you can't distinguish a populated zero value from the default "not present" value.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by kortex on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:59PM (#33240060)
This drives me absolutely bonkers. We had a situation in a machine learning context where we should have been treating the output of a detector as NaN (it was deliberately opting out), but instead it was falling back to zero.

Last I checked (this was years ago) the way to deal with this is to wrap it in a sub-message (which are actually nullable), which is just kinda gross.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by krackers on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:45PM (#33240476)
I thought proto3 has support for optional scalar fields now (https://github.com/protocolbuffers/protobuf/releases/tag/v3....), and proto2 always had it
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by bazoom42 on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:37PM (#33240401)
Thats why JavaScript has both undefined and null!
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by deely3 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @02:58AM (#33243899)
Do we really need to differentiate between undef and null?
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by bazoom42 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @01:54PM (#33251341)
Not necessarily, but it does allow a level of robustness to be able to distingish between values which have deliberately been assigned null, and values which have not been initialized correctly.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by mananaysiempre on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @05:40AM (#33244924)
Lua does fine with only a nil, although it gets a tad annoying when you actually want to store a nil value in an array and end up creating a hole instead. (Arguably, the solution to that problem is to use your own marker object and not a nil when you need some sort of unspecified or default value which is not a literal absence of one.)
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by hardware2win on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @02:59AM (#33243905)
C# linqs method - first or default has the same problem
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by int_19h on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @05:11PM (#33267994)
The method itself just uses the default value of the corresponding type. If you have a sequence of ints, and you cast it to Nullable<int> first before applying FirstOrDefault, then you can distinguish between null and 0.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by invalidator on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:46PM (#33239936)
That's one reason, but the big one is that it makes it easy to remote-power the sensors. It gives them a 4mA budget to Do Their Thing even when outputting a zero.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by weaksauce on Monday October 17, 2022 @10:31PM (#33242299)
I would say the independence of conductor length to voltage drop since current is measurable at any point in the wire is more important. another big advantage to it is that it also is resistant to noise. (though you should be using grounded on on end TSP anyway) nowadays it's pretty common to use cat5 and read a bunch of things from the sensors though via various protocols. 4-20mA sure is a lot simpler to program against though.