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Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by usrbinenv on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:26PM (#33235858)
A bit of an off-topic: I only ever saw white traffic lights in the US and Canada (specifically, pedestrian traffic lights) and they confused me a lot at first - the rest of the world uses green. The icons displayed (hands) are confusing too: the rest of the world uses an icon of a man walking or standing.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by MBCook on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:30PM (#33235923)
I’ve never seen a white traffic light, but pedestrian crossing lights are often white/red still.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by wongarsu on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:45PM (#33237179)
Are you suggesting I'm doing worse on Google Captchas because I consider pedestrian crossing lights as a form of traffic lights but Americans don't?
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by smolder on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:58PM (#33237382)
Possibly. I think people in the US strongly associate "traffic" with cars and don't generally think of the crosswalk indicators as "traffic lights".
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by MBCook on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:08PM (#33242514)
As an American I totally agree with that. I would never think to include the cross walk lights.

If you asked for “signal lights” I could see it. But not traffic.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by andirk on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:05PM (#33237461)
Best choices to pick on captcha are not what you think is pictured but what you think most people think is pictured.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by wongarsu on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:30PM (#33237738)
Since about 60% of the visitors of most English-speaking websites are American, I assume that requires finding the American answer. But that requires me to jump not just a language barrier but also a cultural barrier to figure out nuances like "what constitutes a traffic light? Do pedestrian lights count? Do the poles and cables count, or just the light-emitting part?" "What constitutes a street sign" "Is a Mecedes Sprinter with windows a bus (it's one of wikipedia's example of a minibus)?".

In the end the known unknowns aren't that bad, just assume laziness and choose whatever checks the least boxes. But the unknown unknowns are regular culture shocks. Like pedestrian lights not being considered traffic lights.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by djhn on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:55PM (#33239402)
Buses are bad, but I feel trucks are even worse. Or actually vehicles in general. What does a Venn diagram of cars and trucks look like? Are Vespas and trikes motorcycles?
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by MBCook on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:00PM (#33238061)
I’ve never had an issue, but I’m American. So if it’s expecting American centric answers that would make perfect sense.

So many not what most people would pick, but what Americans would pick?

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by malloci on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:04PM (#33236514)
The hand is to mimic that of a traffic cop. When they want you to stop, they hold up their hand to indicate that you need to stop.

It used to be that you had to know english in order to understand them as well...many of the signs used to use the words "walk" and "don't walk"

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by usrbinenv on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:28PM (#33236897)
I guess my point is that it was still confusing. It took me a day or two to acquire a reflex. It obviously doesn't matter in the long run - you just get used to it - but I wonder why would US & Canada go a different way with regards to so many small things (think turn signals on cars being red for american cars as another example)? What would be the rationale? It's as if the western hemisphere was completely cut off from the rest of the world and had no idea how others were doing things. I don't quite understand it.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by ianferrel on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:51PM (#33237278)
>I wonder why would US & Canada go a different way with regards to so many small things (think turn signals on cars being red for american cars as another example)?

In many cases the US were the first to mass-manufacture things to some kind of standard, so the question is really: why did the rest of the world choose a different standard. Often they have a good reason (better design, maybe), but the US also has a good reason for not switching (inertia, existing tooling, people understand the existing standard).

The US was the first place that traffic light and crossing signals were installed. The reason they didn't go with the standard the rest of the world uses is that it didn't exist.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by zoover2020 on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:29PM (#33237730)
And standards don't adapt? To me this feels wrong and backwards
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by randomdata on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:42PM (#33237873)
They do when there is good reason, but there isn't always good reason.

In fact, a theoretically better standard could actually be worse in some situations if people are accustomed to a different standard. Imagine if America had settled on red for go and green for stop, and then tried to change the standard to match the rest of the world. It would be a calamity as some drivers continued to adhere to the old standard that they knew.

Stop signs were originally yellow, so such a change isn't unprecedented, but in that case they also contained the word STOP so the colour wasn't critical to understanding the sign. Standards can more easily change when there is backwards compatibility available. More recently, some jurisdictions have started adopting traffic light shapes (square = stop, diamond = caution, circle = go) but retain coloured lights for backwards compatibility.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by ianferrel on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:39PM (#33237844)
They do sometimes.

Like, the WALK / DONT WALK crossing signals that were around in my youth were slowly replaced with the HAND / WALKING PERSON ones, I'm sure because they're better for people who don't read English.

But also there is a cost to change, and it's often not worth doing if the benefit from the new system or standard isn't a lot better than the old.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by creeble on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:39PM (#33239238)
Indeed, sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

Why doesn't the rest of the world (outside the US) have a 3rd middle brake light (CHMSL), as was mandated in the US in 1986?

My guess is because, despite measurements of ~22% crash avoidance at the time, that number turned out to be between 0% and 4% in practice. Maybe the rest of the world didn't care about 4%, or maybe they thought it was as stupid then as it turned out to be.

But the CHMSL standard in the US has refused to die.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by greycol on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:22PM (#33240278)
When ATMs were first implemented they would dispense money before or at the same time as giving your card back.

This resulted in premature conclusion errors. They went to the ATM to get money. They got their money so they left... forgetting their card.

When ATMs were updated they fixed the design error. Now the card popped out and had to be removed before money would dispense. This resulted in a spike of people leaving with money hanging out of the ATM because they had been trained that removing their card was the end of the task. (Which is why money now gets sucked back into the machine if it hasn't been removed fast enough).

The point of the anecdote (other than that you hire HCI experts before implementing an interface) is that implementing a new and objectively better system doesn't necessarily result in an objectively better outcome when replacing an incumbent worse system.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by romwell on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:06PM (#33237467)
The curse of innovation: you might end up being stuck with it while the rest of the world learns from your mistakes.

Case in point: Ma Bell. And things like signing the credit card receipt.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by throw827474737 on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:47PM (#33239954)
> In many cases the US were the first to mass-manufacture..

Traffic lights? Not so many actually?

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by metabagel on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:16PM (#33237558)
"It's as if the western hemisphere was completely cut off from the rest of the world and had no idea how others were doing things. I don't quite understand it."

Seems like you understand it fairly well. I can't speak for Canada, but the U.S. mostly ignores how other parts of the world do things.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Lukas_Skywalker on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:34PM (#33237783)
Since this is HN, and I'm a pedant: reflexes can't be acquired, since they are not processed by the brain, but by the spinal cord, without involvement of the brain (e.g. pulling back the hand when touching a hot surface).

What you're thinking of is called procedural memory, which helps you perform a task without being consciously aware of it (hitting a fast baseball, looking left/right when crossing a street).

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by samatman on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:02PM (#33238088)
This is quite far from being the case.

Dr. Pavlov's seminal book is generally translated as Conditioned Reflexes. Saliva in response to a bell is a reflex, and it's an acquired one.

Not falling flat on our face when we step forward is also reflexive, as is catching something thrown to us. Both are acquired through rather lengthy processes.

There are many similar examples.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Lukas_Skywalker on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:16PM (#33239608)
The term reflex has changed over the years.

Back in 1649, when Descartes formulated the concept of a reflex, it was used to describe lower animals, to support his notion that they were automata without a mind on their own. The word reflex originated from the "reflection" of the sensory input into a response. The physiological backgrounds were not yet known.

In the early 19th century, Hall narrowed the definition of a reflex to be a "involuntary action of a muscle or gland in response to the stimulation of a receptor neurone which does not depend on the existence of consciousness".

Sherrington, in 1904, narrowed the definition further, introducing the concept of the "reflex arc", a hardwired pathway between receptors and effector muscles.

Pavlov later did a strange thing and widened the definition, which is the source of some confusion. Nowadays, Pavlov's Conditioned Reflexes are mostly called Conditioned Responses, to avoid this exact confusion. NB: there are people arguing that conditioned is a mistranslation, and that it should mean conditional, which makes more sense in the context.

Pretty much every current publication uses the term "reflex" for involuntary, inborn responses, detected by receptors, transported to the spinal cord by afferent nerve fibers, processed there, and the motor signal sent through the efferent nerve fibers to the effector muscles. I only found the term "conditioned reflex" in papers discussing Pavlov's experiment.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by oangemangut on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:40PM (#33239871)
:D I have a few of the "Walk" (in white) and "DON'T WALK" (in orange) signals around me in PNW.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by kevincox on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:06PM (#33236543)
I may be biased because I am used to the hand but I find the walk and hand shapes are very distinctive compared to the walk and stand.

However green on walk would be nice.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Arainach on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:33PM (#33236969)
Clearly everyone should adopt the (East) Berlin standard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelm%C3%A4nnchen

Very visually distinct, walking and standing, and green/red.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by lostcolony on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:54PM (#33237995)
I find them far less distinct than a walking person and a hand...and if I was colorblind that would be a large problem for me (and colorblindness was the reason for distinguishing the shape in the first place, so makes sense to have very different shapes rather than both "stick figure with hat").
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by jrumbut on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:03PM (#33238094)
Any kind of figure triggers the walk reaction from me (or it did until someone finally clued me in on a trip to Europe).

My working theory had been green figure means cross, red figure means cross with caution, like a flashing red hand in the US.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by mdavidn on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:29PM (#33237722)
I always assumed the pedestrian light was white to avoid confusion with the green traffic light for parallel drivers.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by knorker on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:51PM (#33237292)
And they call it "green", despite the fact that it's obviously white.

I agree with you. When I'm in the US I keep scanning for a green light, so it takes me a while to find "the white man" telling me it's OK to cross.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by Manu40 on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:10PM (#33237504)
Don't know about Eastern Canada, but over in Western Canada, the only white signal light is the walking person symbol for cross walks. Otherwise, it's Red, Yellow, Green lights for the traffic, and a red hand or white walker for crossing the street.

Just figured I'd mention that.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by gpm on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:15PM (#33237555)
I don't know that I've seen all of eastern Canada, but of the parts of it that I have seen the exact same is true.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by reaperducer on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:17PM (#33238263)
the rest of the world uses green.

Only if you define the rest of the world to mean the very small percentage of places in the world you have been.

From Wikipedia:

In some countries, instead of "don't walk", a depiction of a red man or hand indicating when not to cross, the drawing of the person crossing appears with an "X" drawn over it.

Some countries around the Baltic Sea in Scandinavia duplicate the red light. Instead of one red light, there are two which both illuminate at the same time.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by smoochy on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:19PM (#33239637)
I've been to all continents except maybe Australia. Only North America has the weird white light for pedestrians and a red palm (which also blinks, which is very counter-intuitive). I can assure, most countries of the world use red and green icons of man standing/walking for pedestrians.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by kevin_thibedeau on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:26PM (#33240313)
It's a retrofit of the older WALK/DONT WALK signs.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by reaperducer on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:38PM (#33240403)
I've been to all continents except maybe Australia

Maybe Australia? You don't remember if you've been to Australia?

Congratulations! I've never been so drunk that I didn't know which continent I was on.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by callalex on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:34PM (#33238452)
The white crossing indicator lead to a hilarious situation for me once. I am colorblind and always assumed the walking guy is green just like car signals. One day when a person I was hosting from Indonesia was walking in downtown San Francisco with me, we were talking about traffic conventions. He said to me “Here things are very easy. You just wait for the white man and then you cross!” I thought he was making an poor-taste joke about following the locals when traveling, and it took quite a while to clear everything up! And I learned something new about my own country’s traffic signals.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by yamtaddle on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:45PM (#33238589)
I would think you'd specifically want to avoid displaying lights of the same color as "go" for auto traffic, for purposes other than telling auto traffic to "go". So I'd be inclined to avoid green for pedestrian "go", if I were designing such a system. But maybe that's not actually a problem, IDK.

> The icons displayed (hands) are confusing too: the rest of the world uses an icon of a man walking or standing.

Is a hand held up, palm-out, not a signal for "stop" in places other than the US or Canada? I wouldn't assume it's universal, but I'd expect it's got broader reach than that.

Besides, again, I'd personally assume it'd be better to have very different icons for "walk" and "don't walk". Not two different depictions of a person.

Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by layer8 on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:50PM (#33238666)
It can also mean “Greetings, Earthling”.
Re:Never trust a system that seems to be working by dang on Monday October 17, 2022 @06:49PM (#33240528)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33235298.