Have you tried a Pixel? I've been happily using them for years.

Pixels have unusually high rates of hardware and software problems over time. The reliability isn't there. The current issue of the month is random failure to call emergency services. If you randomly experience this problem, you could call 911 over and over, dozens of times, without success. It also doesn't matter if you have 4/4 bars.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32713375

https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/y039zn/i_compi...

https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/rfld6m/comment...

https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/x5ea32/life_an...

https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/wpirx8/had_an_...

https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/v1enh5/cannot_...

https://support.google.com/pixelphone/thread/176875269/why-w...

I don't know why you're being downvoted. They most certainly have had historically poor build quality. My Pixel 2 began boot looping after a couple of years of use and apparently that was motherboard quality issue that had been around since the Nexus line. I got a replacement and it happened again after another few months. Google "Pixel 2 bootloop" and you'll find thousands of threads from people with this issue.

That was around four years ago. I switched to an iPhone 11 and have had a fraction of the problems that I had with Android phones.

Because of the insistence on anecdotes rather than actual industry reports to back up the claim. Even your claim is your personal anecdote. But when you dive into actual industry repair reports, Pixels do not (at least in the ones I've looked at) stand up in terms of being "historically poor quality". For every anecdote of someone having an issue, there are a large majority that just use their phone day in and day out without a problem. And of course, there's also that person that has to point out that their Pixel is working just fine in response to the person with an issue.

I'm not trying to dismiss the issues Google has had. Just to put it in context that they get a lot of press about the issues they do have, and so there becomes an impression that it's historically bad when the actual numbers do not seem to show that to be the case. (Also, if anyone provides links to 2021 or newer reports, I'd be happy to revise my opinion here based on new data, if it shows that I'm no longer correct, as it's been a bit since the last report I saw.)

Can you link said industry repair report? I've not heard of such a thing.

I know you want to write my experience off as "bad luck" but I had several high-end Android phones with serious hardware and/or software issues before I made the switch.

I really wanted to like Android but I also want a phone that works. :/

I am not writing off your experience. I am saying, that while your experience is valid for you, it cannot be extrapolated industry wide.

For the report, I don't have a link handy. I looked into this in the past and was able to find a few different reports of that nature. I haven't looked for one in the last year or two, so like I said in another comment, if things have changed and what I read is out of date now, I'd be happy to have an update as well.

Pixels may have what seems to be an unusually high rate of problems over time if you judge things by anecdotes on Reddit. There are many more folks just puttering away on their Pixel oblivious that there are any issues at all (or even posting their own anecdotes in response to the anecdotes about problems telling folks that their Pixel is fine). But they don't generally show up leading the pack in industry reports from the folks repairing phones, at least the ones I've looked at.

Every manufacturer has some level of issues, Google sure seems to be about average. I will say that their insistence on automated (read: poor) support can sometimes exasperate problems (which then leads to more anecdotes being posted).

I'm still using a first generation Pixel XL I bought refurbished many years ago. Battery life ain't great but it does what I need it to do.

I've had Nexus 4->6 and Pixel 1->4. I don't understand the complaints about Android phones not working.

With that said I wish I didn't have to choose between surveillance device Pixels or walled garden iPhones.

Have you tried a Sony phone?

> So I guess you win Apple

You can still push back against the bubble elitism: Settings → Messages → iMessage Off. My bubble’s not turning blue until Android users can participate.

This works if you're ok with sending all your messages in cleartext over your phone's radio.

No, you still choose a secure messenger—just one that’s available to everyone.

The people you are attempting to communicate with also have to choose that by the way. The hard part is convincing others

I remember when Steve Jobs said it would be an open protocol.

You misremember. It was Facetime which Jobs promised Apple would make into an open standard, in 2010. He died the week before Apple released iMessage.

"And we're going to take it all the way. We're going to the standards bodies, starting tomorrow, and we're going to make FaceTime an open industry standard." - Steve Jobs, 2010 WWDC Keynote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOxf9tEXEKQ

Oh dang. You're right. I misremembered it. Thanks for clarifying so I don't keep repeating it, haha.

That was FaceTime, not iMessage, and FaceTime ran into patent issues which Apple lost in court, repeatedly, and so had to be reengineered in way that made it not work as an open protocol.

Is there some sort of troll farm apple campaign going on here? In my experience Apple has been much more troublesome, their walled garden pretty much guarantees bugs and errors and ofcourse the trademark throttling of CPU, battery, functionality in general when they think it's time for you to get a new phone, where's the die-hard fandom come from? My $340 Android works better than a $1000 iPhone.

I admit they're actually better built phones, but Apple is shooting yourself in the foot and paying for the bullet.

> My $340 Android works better than a $1000 iPhone.

You trolling? I've not had any of the random problems with my iPhone that you describe. And I feel like by now HN users, regardless of ideology, are well aware that the CPU throttling with a degraded battery was a sensible choice to prevent reboots, but was terribly handled and became a PR disaster.

It shocks me how much that supposed technically minded people regurgitate half truths in order to wage an ideological war against Apple.

Whether it’s throttling, repairability, or the App Store, many of Apple’s decisions make a lot more sense when you observe them as products of tradeoffs. One may not like which side of the tradeoff spectrum that Apple chose, that’s fine, but it’s preposterous to pretend like we live in a world in which they do not exist.

HN has the absolute worst combo of people who are very technical but without the domain expertise to actually understand the limits of what they know. Lots of software people making wild ass conjectures about semiconductors and CPU architecture...

I’ll one up you. I contend people here are simply average even in their domain of expertise, let alone anything outside of it. It’s not a special hideout for geniuses, it’s a generic forum not unlike Reddit. The only reason it appears the way that it does is via selective moderation.

I won’t argue with the point about not everyone being geniuses (I know a sample of one that isn’t).

But the discussions here are still 100x more civil than all other alternatives. That, alone, makes it seem people are at least closer to the genius side of the spectrum.

I agree with the civility, but it's a consequence of strict moderation. Reddit has subreddits that are just as civil, also due to strict moderation.

On the other hand, what betrays this community as being not much more sophisticated than anywhere else is the low quality, trite, and reactionary comments (sometimes not even relevant to the information in the article) that don't get flagged or downvoted despite adding nothing to the discussion and having been repeated countless times in the same thread. It's clear people have strong biases and aren't afraid to air them out instead of discussing the posted content and they're supported by their peers who hold the same biases.

I started lurking here about 6 years ago and every year the comments have become more and more predictable (and not in a good way), exactly what I had noticed happening on Reddit until I stopped visiting because it had exhausted its usefulness to me.

> My $340 Android works better than a $1000 iPhone.

I feel like you're alone in that camp. Very few people would argue that point.

I see this a lot around here. HN user hates company with a passion but buys their products rather than deal with some minor annoyance.

I guess you don't hate Apple with a passion then.

You can hate the King with a passion but still pay your taxes. Sometimes people feel like they barely have a choice and can hate them in-part for that too.

I hate Verizon and Comcast with a passion but if it’s between them or no internet access, well I hardly call that a choice.

I would like to use a Google-free phone. However, online banking apps (e.g., N26) require you to have a mainstream phone (Android/iOS). You can't have root access, since apparently those banking apps won't work then. You need to have a SIM card as well, and you need to identify yourself when purchasing one. I really hate all that. At this point, I dream to live without smart technology as much as possible. Living mostly with "dumb tech". "Smart" ain't smart for us, it seems, it is for the benefit of those companies (e.g. Samsung TV's). More control, I suppose. Can you install uBlock Origin on a Samsung TV?

Furthermore, Samsung phones come with bloat, and you can't even remove them easily.

Samsung is just as bad as you say, but there's about a dozen other manufacturers of Android phones.

I have LineageOS without any Google services, on a Asus Zenfone 8.

Recent versions of N26 work fine.

It's the perfect phone, with an aux port too!

I mean, if you hate Apple and Google, you don't have a whole lot of other options. I'm vaguely aware of some competitors, but they're quite obscure. And I don't think going without a smartphone is all that feasible either these days.

Yep, for me, it is banking.

N26 (Europe) requires you to have a smartphone and a SIM card. Obtaining a SIM card means that you need to identify yourself.

You can't just have a smartphone. The OS needs to be unrooted and also mainstream (iOS/Android).

This really sucks.

Furthermore, Google and Discord lock your accounts, if you don't provide a phone number.

The alternative might be to use an Android/iOS just for banking. Another Android/iOS for services such as Google (Play store).

And a Librem or any other open source phone as your daily driver. Or, just live with a "dumb phone" or no additional phone. I am not sure about the SIM card. Is it even possible within the EU to buy one without identification?

> Is it even possible within the EU to buy one without identification?

If it’s a prepaid one, sure. Just go to the supermarket in NL and get one for 10€, pay with cash.

Obviously, if you’re in one of the many EU countries that require identification (even if simpler than Germany’s video identification system) it’s not trivial to go to a supermarket in NL.

I imagine it’s possible to buy one online from NL, CZ, the UK if it has EU roaming, etc.

I think you might be understating "minor annoyance". I don't like Amazon but I often buy niche products from them because I'll get them in days instead of months.

Minor annoyance? Android is becoming just as much of a locked down walled garden as iOS. Hardware remote attestation is already here and it threatens to deny access to apps to all rooted phones.

If I must be in one of these little walled gardens, I'm choosing the better kept one. It sure as hell isn't Google's.

> Hardware remote attestation is already here and it threatens to deny access to apps to all rooted phones

My phone is not rooted, but I use GrapheneOS on my Google Pixel for security hardening and to not have the google rootkit installed.

Funnily enough, even my banking app works, but not my countries eID system.

I imagine in a few years voting will be hard due to this bs ;(

Yeah, running GrapheneOS will cause remote attestation to fail, rooted or not. Because it's done in hardware, software like Magisk will be unable to fake the attestation. It's complete bullshit.

Had their been a third choice. Something not Android or iOS and may be preferably not American ( or Silicon Valley ) I would have switched.

iPhones are amazing, and there are definitely a few brands of Android-based phones that also deserve to be called amazing. iMessage definitely helped, at a time when SMS sucked and nobody (not Google) was stepping in to improve the situation, but they also crush Androids in accessibility and ease of use all day. Something that gets teenagers hooked early...

Sony Xperia still offer a great experience. Near stock Android, regular updates, quality cameras.

And some of them have official sailfish support if you want to try something new.

Hmmm, this probably will change when the Digital Markets Act starts.

> it's criminal that a vast reason they have so much market share is because of imessage and the fact that it's "broken" with SMS to some degree.

That's just speculation, though. It's entirely plausible that the fundamental reason they have so much market share is because people agree with you:

> I just want a phone that works.

I've gone back and forth between Android and iPhone myself, and what draws me back to iPhone is the lower TCO and more appliance-like nature of the phone. I have enough tech toys to play with every day, I don't need my phone to be one of them.

Lower total cost of ownership?

For an iPhone?

That does not check out unless you're buying the extra fancy android phones.

Absolutely. iPhones have a much better resale value if you replace them every two or three years. And if you just want to keep them until they die, they receive updates for maybe 10 years.

I've never lost more money on phones than when I was buying flagship Android phones.

You might be able to spend less if you buy the crappiest Android phones. But that's not even a little bit comparable to the cheapest iPhone.

iPhones last longer. The 8 and the X are 5 years old and still compatible with the latest iOS. You don’t get that lifespan on Android.

It might be worth to mention that people inside Apple also agree with that speculation. They even directly mention outcome with kids.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/27/22406303/imessage-android...

That suggestion that people buy iPhones merely because of iMessage is outrageous to a non-American. While I might certainly be one of the reasons, I doubt it’s the reason, unless the user is 12.

Not being able to communicate in large group chats with all your friends is social suicide for many people. You won't get 10-15 people that have used IMessage for years to switch, so yes imessage is a primary reason to use iphone.

> I don't believe they will last more than a few years if my last samsung is any indication.

I think this is the real reason for kids using iphone, most a seeeded with parent's castoffs. If your parents are android users the phone is probably broken. :)

What 100000 choices?

There are basically 6 Android phones. Of which only one matters - the Samsung Galaxy in it's 2 biggest sizes.

So basically you need to pick between 2 Samsung phones, the major difference being size.

Wow, that's an intense level of myopia right there.

There are lots and lots (and lots) of people who don't need a Galaxy. Take my wife for example. Entirely happy (or as happy as you can with any contemporary portable computing device) with her old LG Aristo 5, it started failing a few weeks back, and we replaced it with a T-Mobile Revvl 6 Pro 5G. $219. Entirely adequate phone for her, and for most the people we know.

Yeah, I'm an old, and I don't personally use a cell phone of any kind.

No, the point was that if you don't want to choose between 100000 androids you buy the Galaxy which is the iPhone equivalent.

I don't know how anyone would interpret what you wrote in that way, but OK, fine.

Google Pixels with GrapheneOS installed are great too.

What about Google's Pixels, Sony's Xperias, Oppo/OnePlus, Xiaomi? There's plenty of choice, but that's a good thing. You can decide if you want to spend $100 extra for that waterproof model, or if a good enough camera is good enough.

My next smartphone is gonna be an iPhone as well. Android is becoming ever more locked down, hardware attestation is already a thing and there's really no reason for apps to not require it. What's the point of putting up with Android's imperfections and Google's bullshit if my rooted and customized phone can't run the apps I need because I "tampered" with it? Might as well get an iPhone.

Because Android lets you run apps that iOS won't, including apps that you write yourself. Attestation is a security issue. If there's some useful feature you can't get on Android, that is a permission issue. It is silly to throw permissions out the window and allow apps to do absolutely anything. Instead, make an appropriate permission.

It's not permissions, those are fine. It's apps being able to tell the difference between a corporation's operating system and my own customized system. They should not be able to tell the difference.

Unfortunately, hardware remote attestation makes it possible for them to know. Now apps will insist that you run the unmodified corporation's software. Bank apps will require attestation because of "fraud". WhatsApp will require attestation because of "terms of service". Streaming apps will require attestation because of "piracy". Games will require attestation because of "cheating". Every app in the Play Store will find a bullshit reason to require it and the result is we can't use their software if we own the machine. We're all hostile users and the only way they'll allow us to use their services is if we cede control to the corporations who lock everything down and spy on us.

It's a heavy blow to mobile computing freedom. It wasn't that great to begin with but this makes it even worse.

> They should not be able to tell the difference.

And why not? If it's tampered with, it could have been tampered with by a malicious actor who can now lift your bank keys from the device.

Ultimately, it is about permissions. You modified your OS to do something you couldn't do on an OS that wasn't tampered with. If instead, the thing you wanted to do was available behind an appropriate permission, you wouldn't have had to modify your OS to begin with.

> And why not?

Because I'm the owner of the machine and I decide what informarion the applications running on it can obtain. If I want them to believe they're running on an unmodified operating system, then that's what they should believe.

> it could have been tampered with by a malicious actor who can now lift your bank keys from the device

Then give me the keys to the machine and let me use them to sign my own software. People who don't care can use the easy corporation attestation but I still get to maintain control.

> You modified your OS to do something you couldn't do on an OS that wasn't tampered with.

> If instead, the thing you wanted to do was available behind an appropriate permission, you wouldn't have had to modify your OS to begin with.

And what if what I want to do goes against some corporation's terms of service or whatever? What if I want to monitor what apps send over the network? Reverse engineer an app? Copy and manipulate their data? Automate tasks? Fake the personal information returned by system calls? Block advertising? Block surveillance?

Essentially, what if I want to do anything that harms their bottom line? These are not things that corporations will ever give me permission to do. It's an affront to my freedom as a computer user.

> And what if what I want to do goes against some corporation's terms of service or whatever? What if I want to monitor what apps send over the network? Reverse engineer an app? Copy and manipulate their data? Automate tasks? Fake the personal information returned by system calls? Block advertising? Block surveillance?

You can do all of that on Android, many of those without root. If you want to modify any process's memory, you need a permission that doesn't exist. With sufficient imagination, you could invent a permission system that allows you to do that but doesn't allow a malicious app to do that. If instead you allow arbitrary tampering like you want, up to and including replacing the system partition without indication, there's no way for the bank to know your banking has been hijacked by somebody other than yourself. Your bank doesn't give a damn what you do with the banking app on your device. It cares if it has to deal with mass exploitation of its customers.

I'm in the exact same boat. It's not that I don't like Android, I've even built custom ROMs and still write code for Android apps monthly, it's just that it has lost its value as a daily driver.

how do you know that iphone works?

Apparently Android is the new Open Social.

What sucks about Xiaomi 12/12X or Pixel 6A for instance? S22 would be also nice phone if it were not for not so great battery life (and most of the people won't notice slow shutter).

There are plenty of great phones depending on what's your requirements, now if you want SMALL Android phone you have very limited options with lots of compromises usually, if you don't care about size too much there are plenty of good options.

> What sucks about Xiaomi 12/12X [...]

Does that Xiaomi model come without ads? The fact that I even have to ask that is an indicator on its own.

> What sucks about [...] Pixel 6A for instance?

But what's better? The price is pretty much the same.

Yes, there are no ads in Xiaomi phones, nobody force you to use preinstalled Xiaomi apps and there are no ads if you pay attention during setup and don't just click Next but read what's shown on screen.

Brand new iPhone cost 380EUR without any plan same as 6A? Provide please link, I will make tons of money reselling them, thank you.

> Yes, there are no ads in Xiaomi phones [...] if you pay attention during setup and don't just click Next but read what's shown on screen

Enough said.

> As it stands, Apple currently serves up ads in the likes of the App Store, News and Stocks apps

https://www.tomsguide.com/news/iphones-are-reportedly-gettin...

Yeah, because Apple apps don't have ads. Enough said.

We went through exactly this 2 months ago, I motivated her to buy Iphone 13 mini, first Apple products between both of us ever.

We both regret it at this point sourly, its a properly shitty overpriced device with decent (but not extraordinary) photos. Compared to any average android for half that price its - fugly and looks cheaply, too thick, too thick black borders on screen, properly fugly and dysfunctional front notch camera (faceid doesn't work half the time, ie when its dimmer, with masks etc), you will lose pattern unlock for good, there is no fingerprint scanner under the display, battery is average (meaning really not impressive despite thickness like its 2015). Apple supports only basic bluetooth protocol so any properly good headphones will have slightly worse sound. iOS is fast but rather poorly architected (I understand a lot of this is down to what folks are used to, but stuff she showed me that annoys her is outright poor engineering and step down from current Android in usability).

The way its done and architected insults your intellect constantly, "we know better what you want/need than you, and you have no say/options".

You can argue its not for power users, but my wife is exactly that - just a normal user who just wants to use the phone. For long term android user devices like comparable Samsung galaxy is simply much nicer device to use. She likes her 5 year old Samsung much more than new Apple. So much for wow factor.

At this point we both regret getting it, she for paying for it and me for recommending it. The only benefit is decent resale value. Since this is mostly US forum I expect to be grilled for this, but this is proper long term android user's point of view, who gave recently Apple device a chance and regrets it.