You’re correct that our goals and culture that promotes purity and piety is more important than what the secular West defines as “freedom”
Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and please don't post like this to HN again.
Note this rule, among the others: "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead."
From Canada to the Patagonia, no one had heard of the Abrahamic God until the Spaniards arrived. Ditto with China and India. And Africa, Scandinavia and the Poles.
So "good" for the "universal" God from Abraham that just a millenia ago your religion was inexistent for more than 9/10 of the population across the globe.
The rest of your post is a straw man and also shows your ignorance to the Islamic world view of other and previous cultures and religions, as if you think you are pointing out some contradiction. Again, go educate yourself.
In any case, you just attacked my faith, without disproving that indeed the Western secular view promotes indecency that contradicts my faith.
On ignorance, read about the Gilgamesh eposh and then compare it to the Abrahamaic myths. Do they overlap? OFC, Gilgamesh' scripts existed since centuries ago.
Man, as an European I know the Christian myths very well, and later after reading some of the cultures across the world, our Abrahamic view form the world it's as closeminded as some African tribe praying to the Kulu-kulu God.
I repeat: I remind you of the whole America (A HUGE continent), Africa, the Chinese and the Hindi cases. No mention of the Abrahamic God until the Europeans/Muslims arrived. The Egyptians were die hard scribae, the wrote down everything. Yet, they had no mentions on Jesus, Moises' myth or anything.
To me the Bible myths are as real as North Koreans saying to the world that their "the supreme leader" doesn't defecate and he can travel over space and time. Same nationalist bullshit, but first the Jews did it with their myth to get their tribes united. That's nationalism.
The Greeks began to do the right things since Euclid and Archimedes. Everything else it's cheating ourselves with childish beliefs.
Factually false about the Quran. Which proves my points. Educate yourself.
Miracles do violate the normal flow of things, that's the whole point. The Omnipotent Creator bends the rules to His Will. He created the rules after all. There is no logical inconsistency there at all. Just to make it somewhat easier to understand, you can program a simulation with a specific set of rules, but you can make exclusions for a certain time/location.
Moreover, we've already had to ask you many times not to do this:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30421484 (Feb 2022)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29042093 (Oct 2021)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26881003 (April 2021)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26582160 (March 2021)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22724414 (March 2020)
Your comments in this thread were so aggressive that you've easily crossed the point where we would ban an account. I don't want to ban you because you've also posted good things. If you do this again, though, we're going to end up having to. Therefore, please review the rules (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and avoid doing anything like this on HN again.
If you think this is the same as being naked in public or that women's hair is impure, well... You live in a very sad place and deserve compassion. It really sucks to be you, but your pain is self-inflicted.
Enjoying the feminine grace and beauty is one of the greatest pleasures of being alive. Imagine yourself sit in a caffee three months from now watching by the first time an endless stream of smiling happy, "naked" women. If this image don't puts a smile in your heart, then something terrible must had happened to you
> Enjoying the feminine grace and beauty is one of the greatest pleasures of being alive
And we get to enjoy it. Just not in the way the West wants where any strange man will drool over our women. We're not pigs, nor are we dumb. We're seeing what the so called "female liberation" is causing to your societies. Enjoy your STDs, single parent families, children on the streets, and normalized prostitution, and many more.
Not even close. The fact is that some men (and women) felt so threatened and unhappy by a woman showing a glimpse of beauty that killed her in a coward hate crime.
Your idea about how men behave in the west, or China, or Brazil, or Australia when we see a woman... is just ignorance.
You don't even will notice how clueless and silly your words sound out of your closed world. Ever.
You are not pigs?. We aren't pigs either. We are men, and the difference is that we live much better than you.
> Enjoy your STD's
I never had one. Just be smart and use a condom as everybody does
> The children in the streets
Zero children in the streets here. Primary school is free and obligatory for all children, boys and girls.
Any other question that you would want to know?
No one is feeling threatened. You're the one projecting here.
I'm also not defending what happened to her at all. Whomever killed her should be brought to justice.
> Your idea about how men behave in the west
Not really. I've seen and experienced it personally.
> and the difference is that we live much better than you.
Yes, as evidenced by the insane rates of STDs, mental illnesses, women resorting to prostitution to support themselves, the mass homicides, drunk driving, wide spread rapes, and much more to count here.
> Just be smart and use a condom as everybody does
Yes, everybody does, yet the rates of STDs are through the roof.
Much more available here in the following playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIBKRT_XsX4&list=PLPqH38Ki1f...
It seems that your image of the world has a few cracks on it, and is not so accurate as you think
Now tell me how many of those points can you check in your place.
Please don't dare to tell me that Islam countries are happy utopias were nobody is raped, there is not prostitution or mass killings and problems never appear. We aren't so gullible.
We know that Afghanistan is a main drugs exporter and mental issues by drug abuse are not uncommon. We are aware that half of the muslims want the other half killed and that some muslims have committed genocides towards other muslims at each single opportunity in their history. We are aware that in some places woman can't work or earn money to support themselves in any non clandestine way
I seriously doubt that they could even locate it in a map.
> No one is feeling threatened.
Oh yeah? Then why did they feel compelled to kill a young woman for the "horrible crime" of not covering her hair?
> You're the one projecting here.
Nope, it's definitely you. All that gibbering about STDs... It's not actually mandatory for Westerners to have unprotected sex with every woman whose hair we can see.
And posting a YT playing list of some little scraggly-bearded mufti wannabe mullah spouting medieval superstition, as if that supports your position? It only further cements how wrong you are.
Why are you asking me? Did I defend the corruption of such a regime anywhere in what I wrote? In fact, I stated the opposite. The incident should be investigated, and those responsible should face justice.
> It's not actually mandatory for Westerners to have unprotected sex with every woman whose hair we can see
No one said it is mandatory, but the results are clear for spreading immorality in the land.
Your last statement is pure bigotry and Islamophobic and racist. If you don't want to learn, I hope someone else who comes across this conversation has an open mind.
I don't like to ban people for expressing minority points of view, but your conduct in this thread was way past unacceptable in its own right. Please don't do this again, and please avoid religious arguments generally—they just lead to hellish flamewars and are always off topic.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: actually, since you have a history of doing this and ignoring our requests to stop, I've banned this account. More at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33174051.
Religious flamewar is a hell particularly to be avoided. No more of this, please.
I don't want to ban you, so please don't post anything like this to HN again—regardless of how you feel about someone else's religion.
Use of the possessive form noted.
Besides, the woman that was killed in custody that started this whole mess in Iran was hardly "naked", quite far from it.
It's not the west's fault that people lack so much self-control they can't handle anything but a hijab. In my opinion that speaks incredibly poorly, if anything that means folks shold spend more time looking inward than foolishly crying out for divine protection
I'm not defending the Iranian regime by the way.
You're straw manning to assume that the Hijab's only reason is lack of self control. It's one part of many things that we have in Islam to preserve morality and purity. For example, both men and women are ordered to lower their gaze.
I'm not moralizing here. I'm defending my religion and land from the assumption of the secular west that they're here to liberate us from "oppression".
Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33174008 and stick to the rules from now on: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. We're trying to have an internet forum that doesn't burn itself to the ground.
Frankly, all the other commenters who jumped straight into the pit of hell with you are more responsible than you are, but we can't have people abusing HN this egregiously.
Religious flamewar is particularly hellish and particularly avoidable. Let's avoid it.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33141230.
It also fails to account for the autonomy of the people there. Is it really so hard to believe that they are rebelling against authoritarianism?
Even if there is an interest to empower the people to oust the regime, wouldn't it be fomenting on already existing unhappiness?
Interestingly, the same can be said of unrest anywhere- undoubtedly the agendas of several states will always align with weakening their competitors/adversaries.
When you consider the things everyday people care about and strive for, it can be argued that any party interested in destabilizing another nation would play to those aspirations in such a way as to further their control- this is true of almost everywhere, it is not exclusive to any one people or any one institution, and it can be seen in every region. In any given place, if you take a close look, there are varying levels of influence from foreign powers- often with the goal to secure economic goals or obtain natural resources.
Out of all the nations on Earth, perhaps a majority of them have some kind of discontent among the population. Then, with this blank cheque being given, the nations with the most powerful intel agencies can empower the ones they want into full-blown protests.
The conspiracy theory that Russia influenced the two recent American presidential elections naturally come to mind. If that was the case—and I don’t doubt that they might have invested a small pittance into FB ads—then they were surely just building on existing unhappiness, as Trump supporters are too numerous to all be sleeper agents of the waning super power that is Russia.
That is a very simplistic, and correct view of how the US manipulates such tensions.
There are many of us international HNers, whose countries suffered multiple US backed coups or color revolutions, and even worse, whose grassroots popular movements were co-opted and subverted by the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_(Polish_trade_union...
So much that even the 'people's movement', Solidarity in Poland, that was the 'trade union' movement that overthrow their government was CIA funded and organized. The same thing has been a staple of daily life in Middle East since 1960s, when CIA decided to fund and use Islamist groups.
I'm not saying the US, and/or proxies of the agendas of the powerful who stand to gain from exploitation and meddling, aren't involved. I would expect they are very much involved, and I would be very skeptical of any claim they aren't.
What I'm saying is simply that despite this, people in those places could conceivably be independently fed up- and their dissatisfaction with their regimes stands on its own and is valid. There is a lot of nuance and a lot of different intersecting motivations and interests at play.
I just think, in my personal opinion, that those things people fight and risk dying for (freedom from persecution, personal safety, to be able to put food on the table, to care for family, etc) aren't only happening because of outside factors and political reasons, these are human concerns. People in Iran, Saudi Arabia, anywhere else, aren't just pawns susceptible to propagands- they understand there are all sorts of players trying to gain dominance over their lives. A lot of people in the US have these broad ideas about people in entire regions, as though they're monoliths- like people in Iran/Saudi Arabia were content and would have been obedient if not for foreign involvement, which I think is simplistic and I disagree with this assumption.
People in an uprising and nations in upheaval are especially vulnerable to external groups swooping in to manipulate the situation to their interests- this much is true, and it can also be true that people would have been rising up regardless. How this plays out over time is yet to be seen but unfortunately the most likely scenario is some other despot will step in to further their personal agenda at the expense of the people, whether they align with US interests or otherwise... like anywhere else, those in power will fight to maintain and gain power and control, no matter the human cost and devastation- this is true everywhere.
How this plays out over time is either of the two: 1) The protests fail, either due to the momentum fading or the government suppressing 2) The protests succeed, and the country gets a US backed government. Along with all the privatization, removal of labor protections and social welfare, decline in life standards.
Unfortunately, there hasnt been any case of the protesters somehow being able to avert that while still succeeding. Because such protests and movements need organization to succeed. And if there wasnt an indigenous, powerful source of such organization present in the country for a long time, the organization will be coming from those who are backed by the US.
A US backed government would mean hell for both Saudis and Iranis - Saudi Arabia has VERY extensive social programs that literally guarantee everyone's comfort, life and education. Iran does not have those, but it still has enough such programs and the traditional cultural relations and social fabric is still alive. Those tend to get destroyed in the first wave of privatizations and 'free marketization'.
[edit]
Not in the age of covid. A lot of young people suffered various heart conditions in the past 3 years.
We staged a coup, overthrew their democracy, and installed an extremely unpopular puppet dictator and monarch. 26 years later in 1979 there was another revolution, except this one was carried out by the people of Iran, and not the CIA. The puppet (still ruling from 1953 interestingly) was overthrown, and in his place an Islamic theocracy was created. And since then it's invariably been headed by leaders that, for some reason, haven't been especially fond of the West - and frequently imply we're up to shenanigans. That scenario continues to this day.
Ultimately I no longer really believe that we deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to black ops types scenarios. We've turned what should be a sort of last resort act of subterfuge into what increasingly seems to be a front-line approach to international relations. The most bizarre part is that these shenanigans never even really seem to achieve anything. Iran just being one example of going black ops to undermine one enemy, only to create one 10x more deadly, dangerous, and hostile than the former.
All we really seem to be achieving is the fast-tracking of WW3.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...
It would be much more suspicious if the US govt. started to support the Iranian govt. all of a sudden.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/commodities/opec-mi...
This would be a radical shift from US behavior during the Arab Spring, when the USA gave a wink and a nod to Saudi tanks rolling into Bahrain to crush the pro-democracy protests there.
[edit] Here's a story about Saudi Arabia, hijabs, and death threats to women (2016). Let the revolutions begin!
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1251171/saudis-call-execution-w...
> "A woman in Saudi Arabia has sparked outrage after posting a photo of herself on Twitter without an abaya or hijab, and is now facing calls for her execution."