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Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hunglee2 on Monday September 19, 2022 @09:17AM (#32897889)
Effective propaganda is one of the US's strongest competitive advantages - extensive and well funded national security apparatus, think tanks with global reach, compliant media publishers with global reach and big tech platforms used throughout the world, which can amplify and dampen messages, based on whether they suit US foreign policy objectives. We should celebrate this full spectrum narrative control, not 'investigate' it.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by paganel on Monday September 19, 2022 @10:59AM (#32899244)
Not sure why you're being down-voted, because once you see it is very, very hard to un-see it. For example in my case one of the factors for making me "see it" was the fact that almost all of the anti-corruption campaigns from my EU-member country were connected to a US governmental agency one way or another, be it the State Department or some other entities that are most probably the front for something that Langley is doing.

The US ambassador visiting our Justice Ministry [1] a few years ago when almost all of the middle-class electorate was out in the streets protesting against the Government's direct influence on some justice-related stuff was the cherry on cake. I didn't realise it back then, because I was busy protesting against my own government, but in retrospect I started wondering how come it's ok for a foreign entity to control the justice system from my (supposedly sovereign) country.

[1] https://stirileprotv.ro/stiri/actualitate/ambasadorul-sua-ha...

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by asdff on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:32PM (#32905591)
Manufacturing Consent outlines how this propaganda model works. It was written 40 years ago but honestly nothing has changed, mass media still decides what topics are presented to the public as they've always done. Think of all the wars happening in the world today, and the ones we see a lot of information about versus the one where there is almost no information about what is happening at all.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by michael1999 on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:06AM (#32899361)
Influence is not control. I have absolute confidence that Canada's elections are sound. But I have strong suspicions that the USA applies influence to our processes of developing candidates. So do Russia, China, and Europe. How could it be different?
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hoseja on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @04:30AM (#32909112)
When does it become control? It's become increasingly obvious that with total control of the narrative the people are simply incapable of voting in ways those in control don't want them to, whatever technical soundness of the election process.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by googlryas on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:47PM (#32900744)
So what's the deal here?

Is there a corruption problem in Romania, and the US is trying to help overturn it?

Is there no corruption problem in Romania, and the US is doing some power play to try to get the people in power out?

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by tarakat on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:28PM (#32901284)
There's a corruption problem, and the US will use it as an excuse to target politicians unfriendly to their interests, and divert scrutiny away from those that play ball with Washington.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by paganel on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:40PM (#32901445)
Exactly this.

Plus the few cases when US companies (or they local subsidiaries, more exactly) do get tangled up in a corruption thingie for one reason or another the companies themselves get out of it as nothing had happened.

Here's an article about a former CEO of Oracle Romania [1] recognising that he took 500,000+ euros as bribes, but because he reached a deal with the prosecutors he received a suspended sentence (so no actual prison time).

And, the most famous, the Microsoft scandal [2], which has its own dedicated wikipedia page, but where, again, the company itself got away without anyone working for them actually being prosecuted. I'll give it to the American authorities on this one, though, that scandal was most probably put into motion at the very beginning thanks to the work of the FBI [3] (so, obviously, as the result of domestic US investigations), the FBI which had also found irregularities with MS's work in China and Italy.

[1] https://www.mediafax.ro/social/fostul-ceo-oracle-romania-aco...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_licensing_corruption...

[3] https://fcpaprofessor.com/microsoft-business-in-romania-the-...

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hunglee2 on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:01AM (#32899278)
Upvote / downvote are almost always emotional on HN ;-)
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by StanislavPetrov on Monday September 19, 2022 @03:24PM (#32902739)
>Effective propaganda is one of the US's strongest competitive advantages - extensive and well funded national security apparatus, think tanks with global reach, compliant media publishers with global reach and big tech platforms used throughout the world, which can amplify and dampen messages, based on whether they suit US foreign policy objectives. We should celebrate this full spectrum narrative control, not 'investigate' it.

Government propaganda is anathema to a free and democratic society. Our government is purportedly granted its authority by the consent of the masses. Having this consent influenced (or completely manufactured by government propaganda) nullifies the whole idea of democracy. The absurd contention that propaganda being spread by US military and government operatives on Facebook and social media is only targeted at (much less only influences) "foreigners" is patently absurd. Millions of Americans (myself included) vehemently oppose our currently stated "US foreign policy objectives" devised by the CIA, the Pentagon and the various government-funded "think tanks" that set policy and direct these propaganda efforts. "Full spectrum narrative control" has been the wet dream of every dictator, king and authoritarian government since the dawn of time, and it should be something that every thoughtful, decent person recognizes as toxic and incompatible with a free and open society.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by nyokodo on Monday September 19, 2022 @10:20AM (#32898704)
> We should celebrate this full spectrum narrative control, not 'investigate' it.

Ignoring any moral qualms or suspicions, any powerful weapon that isn’t actively overseen will inevitably be abused.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hunglee2 on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:03AM (#32899313)
who watchers the watchers though, this is infinitive regress. Besides, who or what is being abused, and what qualifies as such, as also part of the program
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by nyokodo on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:19PM (#32900377)
> who watchers the watchers though, this is infinitive regress.

Infinite regress is only contemplated when you aim for perfect oversight which is impossible. The best we can hope for is 'as good as possible'. We the People, as well as possible, oversee that the appropriate authorities are, independently as possible, overseeing the use of weapons and interventions. It's obviously imperfect just like any other human endeavor but that's why we as citizens should fight for strong whistleblower protections, regular investigations/audits and reasonable timeframes for declassification etc so that we can do our job.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by StanislavPetrov on Monday September 19, 2022 @03:28PM (#32902785)
>who watchers the watchers though

We all should - one of many arguments for complete transparency. Democracy dies behind closed doors. All the claims about the need for government secrecy, "national security", protecting "methods and sources" are trash when compared against the importance of transparency in a society purportedly governed by elected representatives of the people. The so-called "risks" posed by radical and complete government transparency are far less than the actual and tangible harms caused by the ever-growing secrecy afforded and demanded by those holding the levers of power.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by throwrqX on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:19AM (#32899545)
I like the sarcasm but if you read the report that originally started this review (you can find it in the attached link) you'll find the propaganda in this specific case didn't seem particularly effective. Quoting:

> It also reveals a somewhat damning tidbit when talking about the reach and impact of these campaigns; according to the report, “the vast majority of posts and tweets we reviewed received no more than a handful of likes or retweets, and only 19% of the covert assets we identified had more than 1,000 followers.” What’s more, the two accounts with the most followers explicitly said they were tied to the US military. I’ll try not to think about how much all this cost when I’m paying my taxes next year.

Had US social media agencies been fully in bed with the feds such a report would have never been produced in the first place. Remember, conspiracists always talk about shadowy organizations or groups of people with near omnipotent power - an idea these agencies themselves would like perpetuated to make it seem resistance is futile.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/25/23322214/us-government-pr...

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by the_jesus_villa on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:52AM (#32899999)
>an idea these agencies themselves would like perpetuated to make it seem resistance is futile.

Quite the opposite - the conspiratorial reaction is that these agencies want to be mistaken for bumbling bureaucracies, so they let reports of small-level stuff get out. That way we underestimate the real degree of their control and believe that if they ever tried to manipulate us, they would get caught anyway, and besides, they're just making unsuccessful tweets, right?

Or even deeper, that these organizations are meant to distract us from much more powerful entities who they don't even realize they are controlled by.

I don't believe any of this, but the conspiracy theorists deserve more credit for creativity that you are giving them!

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by alldayeveryday on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @09:10AM (#32924640)
> Had US social media agencies been fully in bed with the feds such a report would have never been produced in the first place.

Ever heard of a limited hangout?

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by pessimizer on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:16PM (#32900339)
That's because it's meant to disrupt conversations, not be liked. None of it is liked, you just have to wade through mountains of it to follow a conversation. The content is shitty US propaganda that maybe 5% of people agree with without reservations. None of those people are on the threads where they're asking a woman how much she likes Putin's dick.

The most damaging thing that they do is inflate the like counts and apparent engagement of government thinktank employees and unaware nationalists drunk on the dopamine hits of botted upvotes. I'm absolutely certain that the removal of downvotes from social platforms in general was a long term government project.

edit: does anyone believe that this behavior can't be easily detected algorithmically? I don't know about other platforms, but Twitter is obviously a government partner, not a victim.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by realce on Monday September 19, 2022 @10:54AM (#32899178)
Your conception of Public Relations and mass manipulation is shallow: investigating these programs is part and parcel of the overall psychological manipulation program the US employs. Part of our marketing includes this whole "integrity" aspect that's supposed to give us "moral authority" over other nations.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hunglee2 on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:00AM (#32899268)
4D chess. I am naive!
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by pessimizer on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:20PM (#32900393)
No, just 2D chess. Humor the possibility that spies might have some degree of guile.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by halfmatthalfcat on Monday September 19, 2022 @09:48AM (#32898248)
The US has overall amazing projection generally, be it propaganda, military, culture, etc. I find it funny, looking back a couple years ago, that people were outright dismissing American hegemony but it looks alive and well today imo.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by spamizbad on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:00AM (#32899256)
The US capitalized on the whole "US has declining global influence" meme* and used it to lay the groundwork for even more global influence. A real "Heads we win; tails you lose" sort of operation.

*This is probably true in some areas but the opposite in others - our influence simply shifted.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by okdood64 on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:21AM (#32899582)
Interesting, elaborate?
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by pram on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:42AM (#32899877)
Seems to me shifting the narrative to an emerging 'multi-polar' world from the 'uni-polar' US hegemony might solidify alliances more than they otherwise would have been. Kinda like during the cold war you were on one team or another, no trying to play multiple sides.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by yamtaddle on Monday September 19, 2022 @06:11PM (#32904821)
> Kinda like during the cold war you were on one team or another, no trying to play multiple sides.

Tangential to your comment, but in fact there was another path, spearheaded by, among others, India. It's where we get the term "third world", which became shorthand for "developing" because basically no developed countries joined this "third world" movement ("first world" being the so-called West, "second" being the Soviets).

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by erikerikson on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:47PM (#32900743)
Shifting to a multi-polar that in essence agrees to the best possible outcome, even as we explore it, seems perfectly within the interests of all. Such an alliance can be more stable and productive while guarding against misuse of the single point of control.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by JumpCrisscross on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:03PM (#32901717)
> a multi-polar that in essence agrees to the best possible outcome, even as we explore it, seems perfectly within the interests of all

Multi-polarity is generally code for regional hegemony. That's great if you're the regional hegemon. Not so much if you're the hegemon's neighbor.

America is a maritime power. These (think: Carthage, Venice, Portugal, the Dutch and Britain; counterfactual: Japan) have historically relied on trade, and trading outposts, to project power. As such, they're a natural friend of small countries resisting regional hegemony.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by tdba on Monday September 19, 2022 @05:12PM (#32904046)
So it's better to be dominated by an even bigger hegemon from further away?

>natural friend of small countries resisting regional hegemony

Consider Cuba or Venezuela and their relationship to the USA.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by JumpCrisscross on Monday September 19, 2022 @05:47PM (#32904501)
> it's better to be dominated by an even bigger hegemon from further away?

Objectively, yes. In no small part because maritime powers tend to knit together alliances, not annex and colonise the way land powers do.

> Consider Cuba or Venezuela and their relationship to the USA

In both these cases, we are the regional hegemon.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hackerlight on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:12PM (#32901840)
This is the exact opposite of the truth. Multi-polariry always leads to war because there's no hegemon with a monopoly on force. States are in anarchy, after all. In an anarchic situation in the presence of information asymmetries and opposing interests, you always get war. Aside from nukes, unipolarity is the only reason for the unprecedented levels of peace we've seen since 1990. This is realism 101.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by SyzygistSix on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:51AM (#32921239)
>States are in anarchy, after all.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by quickthrowman on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:40PM (#32905654)
World War I and World War II happened because of a multi-polar geopolitical power balance. I’d prefer not to live through World War III, now that nuclear weapons exist.

There is no organization that can prevent one state from going to war with another, I believe a multi-polar world would inevitably lead to a global scale conflict.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by spamizbad on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:50PM (#32901563)
Not sure I agree with that in practice, but maybe my understanding of history is flawed.

Was the humanity better off during the Bi-polar era of the Cold War, with continuously escalating nuclear threats and proxy wars vs 1991-2010? What about the multi-polar world of 1919-1938?

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by concinds on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:40AM (#32899841)
While the U.S.'s core strength has always been propaganda (they got Operation Paperclip Nazis to becom American patriots, got the USSR to abolish itself, and the young Russian Federation to destroy itself with its infamous "shock therapy"), China also has quite strong propaganda, especially in Africa. And in Europe, go back 30 years and people still saw Americans as liberators; now, Europeans see it as a corrupt third-world country where people can't afford healthcare.

And while it's true that U.S. cultural "force projection" hasn't weakened; they are being severely squeezed when it comes to trade dominance (https://merchantmachine.co.uk/china-vs-us/) and monetary dominance (see James Rickards' books).

America still has its hegemony, but the notion that it's declining is very much mainstream in academia (https://www.routledge.com/Americas-Allies-and-the-Decline-of...). Worse, its national security institutions have lost credibility among a significant portion of its electorate (MAGA people), and its military hegemony is now opposed by both populist left (pacifists) and populist right (non-interventionists). They're being squeezed both abroad and at home.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by kilroy123 on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:01PM (#32900126)
All empires eventually decline.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by fortuna86 on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:10PM (#32905399)
What colonies do the US maintain overseas? Or is the word "empire" just slang in this case ?
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by kilroy123 on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:50PM (#32905737)
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by fortuna86 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:30AM (#32908001)
All those territories count their people as US citizens (except American Samoa they need to fix that), most have voted to either be part of the US or enjoy popular support of remaining so.

That's not what empires do.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by jonnybgood on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @12:00AM (#32907501)
You could of just said five island territories. Three in the Pacific and two in the Caribbean.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by sargerage on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:34PM (#32905612)
Any country hosting US military bases and aligning itself with US foreign policy: Japan, South Korea, Australia, etc.

Pretty standard definition of an empire.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by jonnybgood on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @12:02AM (#32907516)
They could kick the US out at anytime. They won't because they want the US to be there. Not the standard definition at all.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by fortuna86 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:34AM (#32908018)
US bases pay rent on land, employ locals, and will instantly shut down if the host country asks them to (after having been invited to enter to begin with). Of course there are cold war era exceptions, but this is the norm:

> The U.S. base at the Bishkek airport had become a regular source of criticism from various Kyrgyz politicians and, with heavy Russian influence, it also closed in 2014.

https://www.rferl.org/a/u-s-military-bases-in-central-asia-p...

Again, doesn't sound like any Empire i've read about in a history book.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by adampk on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:01AM (#32899277)
Isn't China dictating Hollywood's scripts a challenge to this projection?

Hollywood is the main exporter of American culture and values and that seems to have been compromised quite effectively in this last decade.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by encryptluks2 on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:51PM (#32903800)
Hollywood spreads whatever culture they are being paid to spread. I think they are pretty indifferent to whether that is promoting violence, drugs, etc.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by adampk on Monday September 19, 2022 @05:52PM (#32904562)
I can't tell if you are one of the Chinese agents that seem to be ever present on hackernews nowadays or you are somehow unaware of the very real self-censoring Hollywood does for China

https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2021/09/how-holl...

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by encryptluks2 on Monday September 19, 2022 @06:49PM (#32905228)
Well that is new... Been called a Russian bot before but never a Chinese agent. Anyhow... I'm not either as far as I'm aware.

What I can say though is that money appears to be the primary driving factor here whether that is pushing an agenda or censoring ideas.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by peteradio on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:31AM (#32899699)
> main exporter of American culture

"foot-in-the-door" American culture maybe. I'd say it's a different projection of our culture at home.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by steele on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:03PM (#32900150)
Complain about this in Mandarin
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by ben_w on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:25PM (#32900446)
Me: "Complain about China dictating Hollywood's scripts, but write the answer in Mandarin Chinese"

GPT-3:

我覺得電影腳本被中國人牽制了

(Transition according to Google: "I think the movie script is being held back by the Chinese")

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by polytely on Monday September 19, 2022 @05:03PM (#32903925)
from what I've read it's perfectly fine to complain about stuff on the Chinese net, you start getting in trouble once you attempt to mobilize people
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by fortuna86 on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:12PM (#32905418)
"Complain all you like, don't take steps to change or improve your situation."

The biggest advocate for the fairness of a prison cell often is the prisoner.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by SyzygistSix on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:01AM (#32921284)
I don't feel like they were saying that was a good situation. Rather pointing it out as an instrument of control.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by polytely on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:13AM (#32921720)
For the record, I wasn't approving of the situation, just describing
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by andy_ppp on Monday September 19, 2022 @10:21AM (#32898711)
The issue I have is things could be substantially worse than US hegemony - for example there could be a lot more wars/nuclear proliferation if the US failed.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by Mountain_Skies on Monday September 19, 2022 @10:56AM (#32899202)
Are you sure? Where do you think the current path of the US is taking its citizens and the rest of the world? Wars are awful and a nuclear war would especially be so, but taking the slow road to an authoritarian state controlled by unknown forces hidden from view has the potential to be much worse. Think of your ideological worldview, now think of those who are the opposite. What happens if that group ends up in control without you even noticing it happening until it becomes a capital offense to point it out?
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hackerlight on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:15PM (#32901875)
Realism predicts more war in a multipolar world.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by Mountain_Skies on Monday September 19, 2022 @06:10PM (#32904805)
War isn't the only evil in the world.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hackerlight on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:28PM (#32907325)
Other types of evil are also worse in a multipolar world.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by thfuran on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:43AM (#32899879)
It can't possibly be the case that we're currently headed to a secret takeover by a cabal exactly ideologically opposed to every reader.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by feet on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:06PM (#32900197)
It's a thought experiment to try and point out the negative aspects of the current situation that could resonate with any reader
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by troops_h8r on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:07AM (#32899364)
This is much easier to say if you're not living in any of its victim states, or under the boots of any of the vicious autocrats the US props up.

Also, it's not like nuclear proliferation is solved. It's still breathing down our necks, we just don't talk about it anymore

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Monday September 19, 2022 @10:48AM (#32899089)
It's the worst hegemony...except for all of the others. It doesn't have to be perfect.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by FpUser on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:19PM (#32901909)
Says the hegemon. The victims of which there are plenty might have something resembling "fuck you" instead.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by SyzygistSix on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:58AM (#32921265)
The US has indeed done a lot of damage abroad. However I can't really see anyone else using a gentler approach. Far more the opposite.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by asdff on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:35PM (#32905618)
Wouldn't there be no nuclear proliferation if the U.S. failed? Who designs weapons systems for NATO? The entire nuclear arms race wouldn't have happened if the U.S. didn't use the strategic bombing of citizens as a foreign policy platform 80 years ago.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by michael1999 on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:08AM (#32899393)
Because US psy-ops against the domestic populate are illegal! And anyone who says you can draw a bright line between domestic and foreign social media activity is a crook.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by wahnfrieden on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:12AM (#32899450)
It’s been legal for a decade
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by michael1999 on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:13AM (#32899468)
Ugh - really? What was the change? I found this, but it looks like a crack, but not a repeal - https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by michael1999 on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:15PM (#32903315)
There's a long way between allowing VoA onto domestic cable and allowing spooks to sock-puppet in domestic politics.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by maybelsyrup on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:52PM (#32900816)
Legality never stopped them anyway.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by goodpoint on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:31PM (#32901323)
> We should celebrate this full spectrum narrative control, not 'investigate' it.

You were doing well until this last sentence.

No, propaganda and psychological manipulation is completely incompatible with a democratic society.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by eastbound on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:08PM (#32901803)
Is it? What leads you to believe that democracy is a stable state?

My take: Democracy is not the natural state, therefore requires a lot of psyops to remain in place. It’s not democratic, but well, can you speak up about it? No. Or if you can, will you? Probably not worth it. You’re “happy enough”.

My converging evidence: France’s 1789 democracy was set up by gillotining the very person who would have gotten all the majority votes (He was organizing a referendum and the parliament couldn’t let this happen); The EU wasn’t born as a democracy and we only ask people’s opinions when it’s trending up; etc. there are so many examples that actually-democratic systems are an unstable mess and superficially-democratic systems are the norm.

The idea is that people believe they live in democracy, and psyops the only way to reach this state. True democracy might be a naive dream.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by lmm on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:39PM (#32907404)
> My converging evidence: France’s 1789 democracy was set up by gillotining the very person who would have gotten all the majority votes (He was organizing a referendum and the parliament couldn’t let this happen); The EU wasn’t born as a democracy and we only ask people’s opinions when it’s trending up; etc. there are so many examples that actually-democratic systems are an unstable mess and superficially-democratic systems are the norm.

The EU is hardly a triumph of stability - indeed I'd argue it supports the opposite idea, it's unstable because it's not accountable enough and people realise that, no matter how strong the propaganda.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by FpUser on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:23PM (#32901967)
>"True democracy might be a naive dream."

If the democracy leads to a tyranny of a majority it does not deserve to be a dream either. To me what has the most value is the recognition and protection of the individual rights.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:47PM (#32903746)
While the subject is serious, I want to offer a quote from Pratchett:

“Vimes had once discussed the Ephebian idea of ‘democracy’ with Carrot, and had been rather interested in the idea that everyone had a vote until he found out that while he, Vimes, would have a vote, there was no way in the rules that anyone could prevent Nobby Nobbs from having one as well. Vimes could see the flaw there straight away.”

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by goodpoint on Monday September 19, 2022 @03:35PM (#32902861)
Is this 4chan now? Between this and the other 2 idiotic replies I can't tell the difference.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hunglee2 on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:47PM (#32902262)
democratic societies require ideological control. We are seeing today how unfettered communication is leading to polarisation and consequent 'crisis of democracy'. Good job we are reasserting control over information flows - banning Trump etc - in order to reduce confusion, improve indoctrination and promote stability.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:45PM (#32903722)
I disagree strongly, but I believe this comment should be in full view so that people can appreciate it is not a rare sentiment. I have encountered it within my social circle quite often.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by Mountain_Skies on Monday September 19, 2022 @06:13PM (#32904845)
Those in favor of such a system for some reason are 100% convinced that it will be people like them who get to decide what's acceptable thought and what thoughts deserve punishment. The reality is much more likely that such a beast will take on a mind of its own and all of us, regardless of ideology, will end up suffering greatly under it.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by goodpoint on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @09:04AM (#32911098)
In short, you described authoritarianism.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hunglee2 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @02:33AM (#32908430)
all comments should be in full view, no true democrat can accept anything otherwise. Cheers to you!
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by chasd00 on Monday September 19, 2022 @05:49PM (#32904532)
> in order to reduce confusion, improve indoctrination and promote stability

one social credit has been deposited in your account

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hunglee2 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @02:28AM (#32908385)
no need for social credit - we have private platforms to do the controlling for us. Broadly, we seem to welcome this, wouldn't you agree?
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by palmetieri2000 on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:53PM (#32903817)
The low education of many Americans is the reason Trump was/is effective, not because he has a capacity to communicate...
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hunglee2 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @02:29AM (#32908398)
education is indeed where the indoctrination starts. It might be the primary purpose of centralised education systems - they are society building institutions, not individual character building ones
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by banannaise on Monday September 19, 2022 @10:30AM (#32898825)
The tools of warfare and colonialism become the tools of suppressing one's own people. Foucault's boomerang.

"These tools are good for us when we use them against our enemies" breaks down very fast when your apparatus starts to find "enemies" within its borders, a line we crossed a very long time ago.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hunglee2 on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:05AM (#32899343)
yes, I think actually it is other way round - one must first suppress your own population (via propaganda, ideally), so that they can be recruited to suppress the other.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by dirtyid on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @05:14AM (#32909437)
Celebrate in private, but pretend to investigate and be concerned about values in public like the drone program. Narratives like this is part of the propaganda.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by jasfi on Monday September 19, 2022 @09:49AM (#32898251)
The points for not playing dirty, and making that public, are worth it. Hopefully other countries take note.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by Mezzie on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:57AM (#32900062)
But they are less than the points for playing dirty and not getting caught are. Then you reap both the rewards of the sketchy behavior and the perception of moral behavior.

So the logical thing to do is dump resources into keeping yourself from being caught.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by adampk on Monday September 19, 2022 @10:59AM (#32899254)
Have our adversaries historically ever taken note and followed more "enlightened" behavior?
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by weard_beard on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:58AM (#32900079)
Let me ask you, if you heard that in the next town over they started a dog fighting ring would you start one in your town and take your own dog so that he might learn from such "enlightened" behavior?

I sleep much better knowing my dog isn't taught such behavior is acceptable. I would hate for him to bite the hand that feeds him because he learned such, "enlightened" behavior is acceptable and condoned by his owner.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by adampk on Monday September 19, 2022 @05:48PM (#32904517)
So you do not have an example of any of our adversaries changing their behavior because we are acting more "enlightened", but you want to do it anyway because you believe it is good
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by weard_beard on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:02PM (#32905341)
I believe democracies are like caring for an animal. I don’t care if my neighbor beats his dog and ends up getting bit, I’m not a cruel idiot so I’m not going to join him.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by jasfi on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:42PM (#32900684)
Disclaimer: I'm not an American.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by ClumsyPilot on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:39PM (#32903637)
> We should celebrate this full spectrum narrative control, not 'investigate' it.

Corruption? Abuse of power?

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by hunglee2 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @02:31AM (#32908410)
corruption is just the terminology the powerful deny to others what they do for themselves. Look at Congressional inside stock trading, look at legalised lobbying, look at campaign donations. All ok under democracy
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by TheBlight on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:34PM (#32901363)
The problem is when it's used on its own population.
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by the_optimist on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:41PM (#32901455)
It has been. Nakashima (author) is effectively a stenographer for the intelligence agencies. She does not have authority, she’s merely a writer.
[dead]
Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by tablespoon on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:18AM (#32899534)
> Found the defense contractor/federal employee

You seem new here, but what you wrote is pure noise and violates the site guidelines.

Re:Pentagon opens sweeping review of clandestine psychologic... by Eumenes on Monday September 19, 2022 @05:26PM (#32904239)
Meh, defending the use of propaganda by a nation state seems antithetical to the culture of "hackers" ... but agreed, I'll be more thoughtful moving forward.