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Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by boplicity on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:03PM (#32786673)
Interesting tidbits from the article:

> San Francisco openly admits to not following a state law requiring certain permit processing times

> the state has yet to bring a lawsuit against the city over project denials

I like the idea of amassing money that can be used as a threat of a lawsuit. This is the real power that many people do have; this power is possible for all of us, collectively. We can and should influence our elected officials through legal maneuvers, if other efforts fail. It just makes sense.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by Buttons840 on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:28PM (#32786789)
What happens in a lawsuit against the city? The city might have to pay, but this is basically the people paying themselves - tax payers pay the tax payers. If you sue the city and win, the judge orders the city to follow the law, and they still don't, do elected officials go to jail or something?
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by epistasis on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:37PM (#32786848)
There are zero consequences for elected officials that knowingly and willfully violate laws that constrain municipal actions.

I've seen enough willfully block affordable housing in violation of law that I've looked several times.

NIMBYs also encourage these sorts of lawsuits, because even if they know they will lose, these projects are 1) so close to not making sense that an affordable housing developer literally can not afford to fight for legal rights, and 2) there's a big fear that fighting the city legally will make all further building attempts by an affordable housing developer even more difficult and likely to fail.

I have zero empathy or sympathy for my NIMBY neighbors that have been displacing so many people in my community after several years of trying to fight for affordable housing. People that are otherwise "nice" behave in the most amoral ways when it comes to excluding people from their neighborhoods. It's been very eye opening for me in a sad way.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by gpt5 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @02:53AM (#32788471)
It seems reasonable to me that the city pays, and it comes from tax payer money. After all, these tax payers elected those officials, and can choose to recall them.

In other words, if "NIMBYs" are to blame, it's fine if they are the one that need to pay.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by enahs-sf on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:59PM (#32786965)
I was wondering this as well. Are individual supes indemnified from their actions taken while in office?

In my mind I play out some RICO case takedown where they all get indicted in one fell swoop but surely this is impossible.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by leaflets2 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:43PM (#32792813)
Not from SF and clueless, I wonder:

> NIMBY neighbors that have been displacing so many people in my community

Who are the people getting displaced?

The Not In My Backyard people, are they ... rich and affluent who don't want low income people nearby?

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by epistasis on Saturday September 10, 2022 @04:38PM (#32794400)
California exports a ton of lower income people, and imports about the same number of higher income people. Check out the heat map here:

https://lao.ca.gov/LAOEconTax/Article/Detail/265

The NIMBYs are almost exclusively wealthy homeowners. Not 100% but close to 99%. But in California, the wealthiest homeowners also co-opt the language of the displaced, and take on the mantle of those who can no longer afford rent, even as their actions of exclusion increase their home values and rents in general.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by leaflets2 on Sunday September 11, 2022 @07:24AM (#32798715)
Thanks, interesting diagrams.

> co-opt the language of the displaced, and take on the mantle of those who can no longer afford rent

Oh this is too abstract for me (I don't understand)

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by boppo1 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @09:50AM (#32790623)
> There are zero consequences for elected officials that knowingly and willfully violate laws that constrain municipal actions.

I mean, Kwame is still in jail, right?

I guess that's a different league than this though.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by JumpCrisscross on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:43PM (#32787222)
> city might have to pay, but this is basically the people paying themselves - tax payers pay the tax payers

Courts can also order specific performance.

> If you sue the city and win, the judge orders the city to follow the law, and they still don't, do elected officials go to jail or something?

Courts happily hold municipalities in contempt. The community can then figure out how to hold their electeds responsible.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by m00x on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:10AM (#32787970)
> Courts happily hold municipalities in contempt. The community can then figure out how to hold their electeds responsible.

Can you post examples of this happening, and what the ratio is?

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by JumpCrisscross on Saturday September 10, 2022 @09:09AM (#32790277)
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by m00x on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @04:17PM (#32829668)
Ratio?

One example isn't very telling.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by shlurpy on Saturday September 10, 2022 @10:58AM (#32791197)
What would being held in contempt mean? It seems to be just another fine.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by landemva on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:56PM (#32792379)
Knowing contempt of lawful order can get a person locked up until they comply with the order. Some politics and public perception may come into play.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by shuckles on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:32PM (#32786821)
There are many avenues for enforcement, including and up to the state taking over the city's land use powers if they are unable to comply with state law. At that point, California could issue permits to build.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by hindsightbias on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:43PM (#32786882)
Newsom would just appoint Willie Brown head of that board.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by shuckles on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:55PM (#32786945)
There are a lot of friendlies in the California Department of Housing and Community Development (HCD), but NIMBYism tends to attenuate at higher levels of office since you can't simply move externalities outside your jurisdiction. Citywide officeholders in San Francisco itself tend to be pro-development; it's the district officeholders who have bad incentives.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by onetimeusename on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:48PM (#32787244)
that's the dark side of democracy really. The city officials and the judges are elected (in California) by a majority of the people and so, by extension, a majority of people oppose the judgement. This probably falls under tyranny of the majority and it's an ongoing problem. This is at least my opinion.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by epistasis on Saturday September 10, 2022 @02:30AM (#32788361)
A vanishingly small number of people are informed on local issues enough to elect people that represent their views. And in California at least, local politics is completely toxic and has very nasty people that have been allowed to bully, yell, and spread falsehoods about anybody new to politics.

It kind of reminds me of a much more innocuous version of the French Revolution when it was going off the rails, and the wrong political opinion meant death. Almost nobody voted in elections, because keeping your head down was the best way to keep it attached to your body.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by Retric on Friday September 09, 2022 @11:35PM (#32787546)
It’s city officials vs state law not just judges. An ongoing question is which powers should be local vs state level.

It’s reasonable to favor local governments on local issues, but this stuff is impacting outside their area so it’s no longer a local issue.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by tbrownaw on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:06AM (#32787716)
I'm pretty sure I don't entirely agree with every single stance everyone I've ever voted for has held.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by thaumasiotes on Friday September 09, 2022 @11:36PM (#32787549)
> If you sue the city and win, the judge orders the city to follow the law, and they still don't, do elected officials go to jail or something?

There are various things that might happen; an obvious one here is that, with the city declining to follow its own procedures, it would be prohibited from enforcing them against you. You would then not require a permit to do whatever it was you were trying to do.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by smugma on Friday September 09, 2022 @11:39PM (#32787568)
The city might lose some rights or have an overseer but it's not in anyone's interest to not require building permits to build buildings.

I say this as a pro-development YIMBY.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by hintymad on Saturday September 10, 2022 @03:06PM (#32793628)
> do elected officials go to jail or something? No. In fact, I doubt there will be any consequence to them. The officials do what they do to please most of their constituents. It is the SF people who want them to behave like that or who don't care about what happened to the housing market. Case in point, SF has a booming tourism industry. People working in this industry simply don't want more houses built for obvious reasons.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by mikeryan on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:25PM (#32787139)
Most of the suits in these cases are forcing or fast tracking approvals of housing projects that have a certain level of affordable housing, they’re not for monetary damages. CA has put in place certain triggers for this kind of approval process and can withhold state funding if these requirements are not met but it’s enforcement is stretched thin.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by hedora on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:03PM (#32786990)
I'd rather they spend the money on a ballot initiative that says they have a certain amount of time to reject a permit, and it simply issues (with a refund of the permit processing fees) if the deadline passes.

To close the resulting loophole where they just reject all permits when they have a backlog, there would be automatic penalties for improperly rejected permits, with a floor of an after-tax value of 2 times the financial damage done to applicant; permit office pays legal fees.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by idealmedtech on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:07PM (#32787013)
> it simply issues (with a refund of the permit processing fees) if the deadline passes.

We're a medical device company with Breakthrough Device status, and it works largely like this. Whenever we submit, FDA has 30 days to reach a decision from time of receipt, and if they don't decide, we automatically get approval. Really helps with keeping up momentum!

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by klodolph on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:13PM (#32787055)
California has something called a "builder's remedy". If cities are out of compliance with the HAA, developers can get their building permits approved through an alternative process... it's apparently a bit messy, though, and it only applies when the city is out of compliance in certain ways.

I think it makes a lot more sense then suing the city or issuing fines--at least in theory.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by cortesoft on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:25AM (#32787790)
I heard builders haven't used this, because they don't want to piss off the city, since they have to work with them again in the future and don't want a bad relationship.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by zbrozek on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:50PM (#32787256)
It's going to be really interesting to see how projects attempted under that remedy work out. There's basically no case law on the subject.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by 0xy on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:25AM (#32788049)
Here's how they'll work out; the city will send "random" inspections from the fire department, inspectors and other departments every week to spite you. Applying for any other permit in the city will result in rejection after rejection.

Government is spiteful and vengeful, and wronging them will result in vicious consequence.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by mistermann on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:59AM (#32788219)
If this keeps up, there may eventually be some vicious, extrajudicial consequences for elected officials.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by wahern on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:27AM (#32788058)
> I'd rather they spend the money on a ballot initiative that says they have a certain amount of time to reject a permit, and it simply issues (with a refund of the permit processing fees) if the deadline passes.

I'm not very familiar with the specifics, but AFAIU the most important municipalities in the state enjoy so-called "Home Rule" under the California Constitution. I believe that means that a self-executing rule such as you've proposed is unconstitutional. Rather, somewhat like the constraints imposed on the Federal government viz-a-viz the states, the state government is often limited to cajoling municipalities through expenditures, budgeting, and law suits.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by dillondoyle on Saturday September 10, 2022 @02:15AM (#32788293)
Cities can have ballot initiatives. Just quick search first link on san fran info below.

There are usually arcane rules. Sometimes things have to get put on by council sometimes cities allow citizen petitions.

Something that changes the charter/constitution versus just an ordinance or a tax/levy.

And sadly activist judges can have too large of a say imho.

https://sfelections.sfgov.org/measures

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by eru on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:08PM (#32787024)
Keep in mind the subtle distinction between spending money on lawsuits, and holding money to threaten suits.

If the latter strategy works out, you don't need to spend the money. So it can be re-used for other threats.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by briandear on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:07PM (#32787012)
Just make it where any permit not rejected within 30 days is automatically approved.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by hedora on Friday September 09, 2022 @11:08PM (#32787363)
Our local permit office would just reject things randomly. We had one office cheerfully let us know they didn't plan to spitefully bankrupt us, and half of a two-person department became visibly angry with our general contractor when the other person in that department told us how to tie his hands and force an approval.

These shenanigans cost us rougly $500-1000 a day in insurance, interest, etc. They drug it out for about a year.

The department that decided they liked us has bankrupted multiple people on our street. We'd have at least 5-10% more houses on our street (there is plenty of room) if not for them.

California's state government has an alert on their website specifically listing various things that department did to us and pointing out they were illegal. Instead of suing, we kissed all the right asses in the right order, so now we have a house. Again, this is best case for interacting with them because they liked us, apparently.

Based on conversations with neighbors, my level of satisfaction with this planning office is roughly median for the area, but our experience was way better than average.

Marvin Heemeyer of Killdozer fame is a personal hero of mine now (Don't worrtly, I don't know how to weld. However, I do know how to make campaign donations and vote!):

https://allthatsinteresting.com/marvin-heemeyer-killdozer

Missing from that article are apparently true allegations of direct financial conflicts of interest within the zoning commission, and him being forced to sell land so that one of their cronies could develop it instead. Also note that he fought them for over a decade.

One of our state representatives is running for reelection on a plan to spend huge amounts of state/federal infrastructure money to bypass the office that likes to bankrupt people. 100's of familes will be forced off their land before the plan kicks in (assuming it passes).

So, anyway, there needs to be harsh financial consequences for just rejecting permits for the heck of it.

Ideally, promotions would be tied to correctly processing permit applications. That's probably illegal around here or something.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by imtringued on Saturday September 10, 2022 @06:45AM (#32789438)
Wow, this makes me wonder if our understanding of capitalism is all wrong.

Capitalism is about amassing resources ahead of time and then trying to buy time, create a stalemate and wait it out until the other party has run out of resources and must give up.

Fighting a war accellerates the rate of capital exhaustion and destroys existing capital. Because everyone starts from a blank slate people do not have enough capital to waste on outwaiting their opponent and they instead focus on cooperation resulting in a few wonderful economic decades until everything goes bad again as people use their amassed capital to fight each other.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by zbrozek on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:51PM (#32787259)
All permits rejected at 29 days, status quo mostly remains.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by Paul_S on Saturday September 10, 2022 @03:31AM (#32788651)
The only people who win are the lawyers who pocket money from both sides. And then money the state has to pay also come from your pocket in the end. Brilliant system, isn't it?
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by azmodeus on Saturday September 10, 2022 @04:49AM (#32788986)
Well it's a last resort but pretty effective due to bad PR and costs
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by mike50 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @09:28AM (#32790416)
The people who oppose development thrive on what normal people consider bad PR.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by mistrial9 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @02:21PM (#32793170)
many attorneys are part of some company of attorneys, which has side effects a.k.a. specialization; in some of the more contentious legal specialties there is public profiling of attorneys who represent certain sides of the argument.

So .. perhaps the profession itself could be said to take money from both sides, but many times, in practice, an individual attorney does not or cannot...

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by randyrand on Saturday September 10, 2022 @05:55PM (#32794871)
taxpayers literally funding both sides of a legal battle…

crazy world we live in.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by barbazoo on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:26PM (#32786767)
With wealth being so unevenly distributed this is just another way for the rich to get what they want and protect their class.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by actually_a_dog on Friday September 09, 2022 @11:39PM (#32787566)
That's right. I'd rather see it be made possible for average citizens to sue whatever appropriate government agency rather than just allowing people with money to do so. That route takes a left turn at "one person one vote" onto "one dollar one vote." It's the literal opposite of democracy in action.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by shlurpy on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:06AM (#32791285)
That's one of the purposes of government regulatory agencies. Laws could be enforced entirely through courts, but regulators can fine on behalf of the ordinary people instead of those wealthy enough to sue.
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by jjcon on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:45AM (#32788143)
> I like the idea of amassing money that can be used as a threat of a lawsuit.

I guess I don't really follow. What are they saying exactly? "Hey we have lots of money so listen to us" while simultaneously claiming SF isn't listening to them because the other side has even more money? If it is just a matter of money as they claim but they other side has more wouldn't it seem like they are just going to lose?

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by nine_k on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:49AM (#32788160)
This means, AFAICT, "we have a war chest and will be able to continue litigation for as long as it takes".
Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by jjcon on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:53AM (#32788179)
> She’s raised nearly $300,000 from a slate of high net worth individuals so far

I umm... I seriously doubt that

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by proc0 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @09:58PM (#32796190)
> We can and should influence our elected officials through legal maneuvers

Ideally people should realize that voting for the other party will send the strongest signal to elected officials.

Re:A legal fund to sue SF over housing deadlock by nraynaud on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:28AM (#32791494)
What about going after nimbys one by one?