News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by Yhippa on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:28AM (#32343368)
So was Apple being disingenuous this whole time about privacy? Presuming they plan on using all the data they capture from their users iDevices for their ad platform. Is there a way to opt out of that?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by pxc on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:45AM (#32343571)
Any OS vendor that tries to trick or harangue you into signing into/up for cloud services and telemetry before you even log into your device for the first time is absolutely not privacy-oriented. That Apple automatically opts users into everything and tries to alarm them with popups if they dare opt out should have made things clear enough.

The only way that Apple has managed to seem even sort of focused on customer privacy is that Microsoft is my now so god-awful and free software desktops are so marginal that most people no longer trulyv remember what it's like to even set up a system whose mission is not to monetize the user by plugging them into a ton of services that collect data about them.

The only companies not tempted to do this are (some of) the ones that don't collect data like this in the first place.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by judge2020 on Thursday August 04, 2022 @11:12PM (#32351104)
> Any OS vendor that tries to trick or harangue you into signing into/up for cloud services and telemetry before you even log into your device for the first time is absolutely not privacy-oriented.

This is a needlessly binary take. When most people hear privacy, they really just want to stop seeing creepy personalized ads courtesy of Google, Facebook, and Amazon. The "Apple" solution is not one of 'complete' privacy, but one where the user knows exactly who and what is using their data, assuming you completely buy into their ecosystem (including iCloud+).

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by dwaite on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:23AM (#32352827)
Privacy doesn't mean no advertisements.

In rough Apple parlance, the base level of privacy means understanding where your personal information is going and being able to consent or reject access and sharing of personal information.

If Apple built an advertising platform that made entirely local decisions on what ads to show, anonymized information on ad display and anonymized attribution, that consent prompt would be to either have advertisements chosen locally based on device-held information, or have advertisements chosen solely based on context.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by onelovetwo on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:34AM (#32343447)
No, they are beholden to the same rules they set in place.

I'm guessing it will be a more privacy focused platform.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by candiddevmike on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:32AM (#32343422)
Gotta chase growth to keep the shareholders happy. Don't be surprised when App Store ads come to your home screen or Finder.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by Ro93 on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:35AM (#32343463)
You sound like such a typical HN user it's hilarious . Not everything is so cynical. Apple has a history of putting users first. Do you really think they're going to jeopardize the likability of their own OS to the masses?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by slivanes on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:54AM (#32343707)
Putting users first by making un-serviceable laptops?

Putting users first by removing headphone jacks?

Putting users first by crippling competing web browsers on iOS?

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by tomjen3 on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:14AM (#32352769)
Everything is a tradeof. I replaced my thinkpad with an air because my thinkpad, while far more servicable, was far heavier.

Apple has traditionally removed things before other companies did (both the floppy and optical drive). This angers some people, which is understandable, but others don't mind and again, it is a trade of for a thinner laptop.

Removing the headphone jack is also a trade of: recent iPhones have survived extended stays in water, which is just not possible if there is a headphone jack.

Your preferences may be different, in which case their products aren't for you.

As for crippling competing web browsers on IOS, you can download chrome and firefox from their app store. They aren't crippled in any way except that they have to use the same browser engine apple uses. Which has two effects: random websites don't get to ask me if they want to send me notifications and it prevents Chrome from completely taking over the internet.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by threeseed on Thursday August 04, 2022 @05:25PM (#32348487)
a) Laptops are serviceable and manuals/parts are available to self-repair them.

b) Headphone jacks are simply not useful for most people with the popularity of Bluetooth. And those that need them can use Apple's class leading USB DAC dongles.

c) Web browsers are such a significant security vector that I am fully in favour of heavily sandboxing them and restricting what they can do. I like my web sites to be different from my apps.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by scarface74 on Thursday August 04, 2022 @07:30PM (#32349625)
You realize that most high end phones have removed head phone jacks? What next? Complaining about Apple removing SCSI ports?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by vogon_laureate on Friday August 05, 2022 @05:48AM (#32353800)
RIP SCSI and FireWire.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by judge2020 on Thursday August 04, 2022 @11:14PM (#32351117)
> Putting users first by crippling competing web browsers on iOS?

I can happily re-enable the privacy-destroying qualities of web browsing by using Chrome on iOS, thank you very much.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by figmaheart255 on Friday August 05, 2022 @01:02AM (#32351924)
it's still crippled though. Try playing webm videos, like here https://www.base-n.de/webm/VP9%20Sample.html

They won't play because all browsers on iOS use webkit, and webkit doesn't support WebM. Whereas chrome and firefox on android both support it.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by tomjen3 on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:15AM (#32352774)
They aren't crippled any more than the native browser.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by whywhywhywhy on Thursday August 04, 2022 @11:47AM (#32344458)
They're already doing things that Mac OS users from lets say the era of Jaguar would find utterly tasteless.

I use iTunes match for my music but for 6 months last year once a month opening their music app it would force me to dismiss an Apple Music trail before I could play MY files.

App Store already has a pile of ads and paid placements before you get to the exact name match.

End of the day they don't have a product visionary at the helm they have a bean counter.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by anonymousab on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:56AM (#32343749)
MacOS already bugs me about using Safari and other apps with periodic notification banners that cannot be disabled.

Oh, you can disable that crap for non apple apps. But Apple doesn't let you do it for theirs.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by MobiusHorizons on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:50AM (#32343649)
Apple has a history of making choices that jeopardize the likability of their platforms with the masses (eg headphone jack, removing Touch ID) They also have a history of getting away with it.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by threeseed on Thursday August 04, 2022 @05:27PM (#32348516)
> jeopardize the likability of their platforms with the masses

You don't represent the opinions of the masses.

The fact that Apple iPhone sales continue unabated factually and objectively indicates that Headphone jacks and TouchID are not significant issues to warrant customers switching platforms.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by askafriend on Thursday August 04, 2022 @07:00PM (#32349392)
Everyone I know primarily use wireless headphones and love FaceID. If they don't have wireless headphones, they just pop the little adapter onto the end and go on with their day.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by scarface74 on Thursday August 04, 2022 @07:31PM (#32349633)
So they removed features that “jeopardized likeability” yet they keep selling more every year? How is that possible?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by MobiusHorizons on Friday August 05, 2022 @11:38AM (#32357697)
What I mean by jeopardize is that these changes taken on their own would be seen as bad by many consumers, it is only because apple also provides an alternative (however expensive) that they end up getting away with it in public opinion (and sales).
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by scarface74 on Saturday August 06, 2022 @06:56AM (#32366930)
You really think that most people prefer wired headphones than wireless? How many Android users - mostly on low end phones since high end Android phones also don’t have headphone jacks - actually prefer wired headphones?

You also act as if iPhones only work with AirPods and not any cheap Bluetooth headset you can pick up from anywhere.

Even Apple sells low end Beats Flex headphones for $50 that have the W1 chip with the special Apple sauce.

I have a pair for traveling that I don’t have to worry about falling out.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by lmm on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:34PM (#32350869)
They aren't, they're making more revenue because they're jacking up the prices on a smaller number of sales.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by scarface74 on Friday August 05, 2022 @04:23AM (#32353217)
So people are willing to pay more for phones they don’t like? Even if that is true?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by lmm on Friday August 05, 2022 @05:50AM (#32353825)
They're becoming even more of a luxury fashion brand. Enough people are willing to pay the higher prices that they come out ahead, but that's not about being "likable".
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by scarface74 on Friday August 05, 2022 @06:01AM (#32353914)
Apple also isn’t losing market share. Do you really think the majority of people are clamoring for wired headphones in 2022?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by lmm on Friday August 05, 2022 @05:22PM (#32362122)
> Do you really think the majority of people are clamoring for wired headphones in 2022?

Yes, I do.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by scarface74 on Saturday August 06, 2022 @06:59AM (#32366944)
Where are these people in the US? They aren’t the 60%+ who are buying iPhones. They also aren’t the ones who are buying the Google Pixel, or high end Samsung Galaxies.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by lmm on Sunday August 07, 2022 @06:36PM (#32380618)
Or they're buying them and putting up with the headphone situation.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by postalrat on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:25PM (#32344986)
Users first but users can't use a web browser that might (but unlikely) compete with their app revenue?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by scarface74 on Thursday August 04, 2022 @07:33PM (#32349641)
So if Apple’s forcing users to use WebKit is keeping great PWAs at bay, where are all of the great web apps for Android?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by postalrat on Friday August 05, 2022 @12:08AM (#32351502)
I pretty much only use web apps.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by colmmacc on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:39AM (#32343511)
Having a gay CEO in times of re-emerging bigotry and homophobic oppression probably does help make Apple genuinely committed to some privacy for its own sake, and its revenue model does give it more latitude to serve the needs of customers.

But at the same time when it comes to advertising, it's clear that Apple has the same sense of self-serving "we mean private between you and us, not private to you. Total coincidence that that means we can build a walled garden around our ad platform" that is an industry norm in the US.

I recently unlocked my iPad mini while staying in downtown Boston. Right there on the Home Screen was a geo-based app suggestion for Dunkin' Donuts. It felt very wrong, like when a Smart TV tries to give you a suggestion. I don't want my iPad spying on me. I've never used the Dunkin' Donuts app and had no interest. Apple had clearly used my location to target me with a suggestion. That told me everything I need to know about how far they are willing to push privacy.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by spaetzleesser on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:07PM (#32345517)
“Having a gay CEO in times of re-emerging bigotry and homophobic oppression probably does help make Apple genuinely committed to some privacy for its own sake,”

I doubt that. He will use his billions to get privacy for himself while the users will be used for profits.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by agumonkey on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:27PM (#32345752)
He might still be a lot more sensitive to this subject than the average people.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by smoldesu on Thursday August 04, 2022 @07:54PM (#32349821)
Occam's Razor suggests that marketing explains it better than "he's gay so he must like privacy". By that line of logic, it's equally possible that he is sensitive to privacy because he has a cocaine addiction. This kind of mental gymnastics gets me so fired-up on HN; there are people so convinced that $BIGCORP is benevolent that they'll refute other people's arguments by assuming things on something as arbitrary as sexuality. There's no putting the cat back in the bag now, every single FAANG member is completely compliant with the NSA's surveillance program. There's been an overwhelming number of leaks and whistleblowers over the past few dozen years, and we still have no decent refutation for PRISM.

Privacy is not a luxury that can be offered by a US-based company, especially not at that scale.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by agumonkey on Sunday August 07, 2022 @05:51PM (#32380257)
You read too much into my words. And sexuality is far from being arbitrary. I'm not saying cook drives the company on this factor. But I'll bet solid money that he his leagues above straight CEOs on term of being aware of privacy reach.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by Willamin on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:01PM (#32344639)
Any chance that was a location based App Clip suggestion in your Siri App Suggestions home screen widget?

That or the App Store widget (which is essentially a banner ad widget) are the only reasons I can imagine where:

1. You don't have the Dunkin' Donuts app installed

2. You saw the Dunkin' Donuts app icon on your homescreen

---

If it's an App Clip suggestion in your Siri App Suggestions widget, you can disable this behavior in a couple of places (depending on what you care about):

* Settings > Siri & Search > App Clips > Suggest App Clips

* Settings > Privacy & Security > Location Services > System Services > Location-Based Suggestions

---

I don't mean to suggest that Apple is free and clear of guilt. They often add new options with their preferred value as the default – rather than a user-focused default.

However, I don't think this is caused by advertisements in the same way that Smart TVs suggest things.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by smoldesu on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:54AM (#32343713)
As a gay individual, I have genuinely no idea how you're conflating an openly gay CEO with a responsibility to create private products.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by colmmacc on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:59AM (#32343789)
Tim Cook emphasizes personal privacy in every interview I've seen with him, and he seems genuinely affected and passionate about it. He's also backed tough fights with the FBI and DoJ. I don't mean to reduce a gay person to their sexuality, and I'm no psychoanalyst, but every person I know who was a gay adult in the 80s and 90s has a very personal sense of how important privacy is and it has a very material color to it.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by rchaud on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:49PM (#32345286)
Peter Thiel meets that criteria, and he is pushing regressive politics and investing in panopticon software for state intelligence services.

Tim Cook similarly is a career suit who happens to be gay. He's not going to choose advocacy over fiduciary duties.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by smoldesu on Thursday August 04, 2022 @11:01AM (#32343818)
Well maybe Tim Cook could turn over a new leaf by refusing to help China hunt down ethnic and sexual minorities in their country. Maybe show a little backbone, if this is something he feels strongly about.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by dymk on Thursday August 04, 2022 @11:49AM (#32344482)
How is he helping China hunt down those groups?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by smoldesu on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:44PM (#32345956)
https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/10/22826695/apple-china-mou...

It's an open secret that Chinese authorities have access to all domestic iCloud data without a warrant, which is often used to profile political dissidents and the Uighur populations that Apple relies on to build their iPhones. This is only possible because Tim Cook agreed to move the nation's iCloud datacenters into Chinese territory. So, when Tim Cook says "Privacy is a human right", what he apparently implies is that not all humans are created equal. It's certainly an ugly hill to die on, but it also makes it incredibly hard to believe that Apple has an ideological attachment to privacy when they bend over backwards for China more than any other FAANG member.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by codyb on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:53AM (#32343690)
I just turn off all the toggles for personalized suggestions from Siri and targeted advertising and don't worry about it? I don't receive anything targeted to me as far as I've seen.

I believe the toggles are fairly visible under Settings > Siri, and then I'd probably search for Privacy and Advertising and do toggles there too.

To be fair, I rarely have location services turned on either. Mostly just cause I enjoy looking at the maps more than I enjoy getting directions as opposed to a big concern about being tracked. I find I learn the areas I'm in better that way.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by warcher on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:57PM (#32346150)
I feel obliged to push back on the "gay people would respect privacy better" narrative with a couple notable counterexamples. J. Edgar Hoover and Roy Cohn.

I have to add that attributing virtue or vice based on nothing but personal demographics in this fashion is overwhelmingly likely to lead you to some bad conclusions.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by wrs on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:55AM (#32343724)
That sounds like a location-based app suggestion, not an ad. iOS will suggest an app that is used a lot at your current location. (Edit: Siri uses other signals as well to suggest apps. You can turn off the whole thing by removing “Siri App Suggestions” from your lock screen.)
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by cr__ on Thursday August 04, 2022 @11:06AM (#32343885)
That’s an ad.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by dwaite on Thursday August 04, 2022 @11:34AM (#32344269)
In the sense that you’d see a big sign for Duncan Donuts if you were standing in front of the store, yes.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by rchaud on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:36PM (#32345131)
That's signage. No different from you adding a homescreen shortcut to a website, or a pin on a map.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by 015a on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:17PM (#32344868)
I get in my car. The weather app is suggested to me, because I oftentimes, when getting into my car, want to check the weather. This is innocuous; definitely not an ad.

I get in my car. Candy Crush 2 is suggested to me, because I oftentimes, when being driven around by my wife, play games.

At a surface level, one could argue: Candy Crush did not pay for that impression, its not an ad. On the other hand; Candy Crush does pay Apple 30% of every transaction in the app; and that service fee includes not only access to market on the iOS App Store, but also, critically, access to be installed at all on iOS. Developers pay Apple to be allowed to install Applications on users' phones; any installed application could be given preferential display by iOS in suggested applications, location based suggestions, etc; Apple has a monetary interest (30%) in suggesting applications which would generate revenue for both them & the developer; the algorithms which power these application suggestions are black-boxed and poorly understood by consumers.

Similarly; I drive up to Starbucks, and iOS displays the Starbucks application. The innocuous argument is: arrive at location -> many users open this app at this location -> presenting it is convenient. The "weirder" argument is: arrive at location -> Apple wants to keep Starbucks happy, in the App Store, and using Apple Pay -> presenting it is monetarily beneficial to Apple & Starbucks, Starbucks knew that their app could be presented like this and approved of it, and thus its an Ad. Critically, there's nothing different about these two situations beyond intent, and to some degree that just speaks to the fact that we live in a capitalist society. But I label the situation "weird" for a reason. And "weirdest"? Arrive at location -> There's a starbucks & a panera bread right next to each other -> iOS can only recommend one application, so which does it choose? This is where being explicit about "this is an ad" actually matters; its no longer a matter of convenience or "wow that's cool", its a matter of "a billion devices are now pushing their users to make getting coffee at Starbucks a little bit easier than Panera", and that's not ok even if the intention is totally ethical.

I think there's an argument, maybe not a strong one but extant nonetheless, that any "preferential display" iOS exhibits toward one app over another, anywhere on your phone, is advertising, simply due to how intertwined their megacorporation interests & reach is with how money flows through their platform.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by Apocryphon on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:44PM (#32345223)
Whether if they're ads or not, these preferential display recommendations also end up entrenching the top apps, which doesn't exactly help discoverability for new players.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by calderwoodra on Thursday August 04, 2022 @11:36AM (#32344294)
Only if they're being paid to show it - which I'm not sure is the case here.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by oneoff786 on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:57PM (#32345405)
If the app is monetized then apple makes money if you use the app. It’s in apple’s interest to advertise things to you. Doesn’t matter if it’s paid for.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by scarface74 on Thursday August 04, 2022 @07:34PM (#32349652)
How is Apple making money from a company that makes a free app and sells physical goods?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by smoldesu on Thursday August 04, 2022 @08:11PM (#32349947)
They're giving them a free platform, on the iPhone I paid for, to promote their products by-default. That's an ad.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by oneoff786 on Friday August 05, 2022 @08:37AM (#32355211)
Via Apple Pay, which is the default selection for payment.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by dymk on Thursday August 04, 2022 @11:48AM (#32344475)
When I plug my phone into my car in the mid afternoon, maps suggests I drive to the YMCA. Is that an ad for the YMCA?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by rchaud on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:39PM (#32345173)
Why is the maps app making any suggestions at all?

As much as Google apps annoy me (Android user), at least Google Maps still acts like a dump pipe. Silent unless called upon.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by dymk on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:49PM (#32345291)
Because I drive there often at that time, and it saves me typing in the address manually.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by rchaud on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:52PM (#32345339)
That's different from what the OP was saying, which was seeing a Dunkin Donuts app recommendation, while he was in a different city, and didn't have a history of going to DD.

So your thing is not an ad, just an unnecessary reminder. I imagine after going the first couple of times, you don't need navigational assistance to get there.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by dymk on Thursday August 04, 2022 @03:36PM (#32347310)
How do you know that? Maybe OP often goes to their local DD.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by Apocryphon on Thursday August 04, 2022 @04:42PM (#32348075)
OP: I've never used the Dunkin' Donuts app and had no interest.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by throwaway290 on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:41AM (#32352946)
So iOS is obviously not spying on its owner in ways that matter. If OP ordered from DD, Apple got that transaction and iOS started suggesting DD to OP across devices, that would be insidious enough to stop me from using Apple tech. Dumb location-based triggers are nothing, though I don't have them on because I need fewer distractions.

What feels as spying to me is, for example, seeing a specific medical care ad on YouTube after I talked to a friend about a health issue using a completely unrelated chat app or even IRL. There are clearly a lot of moving parts, a bunch of data stored outside of my device, and if it's not already tied to my identity it's likely de-anonymizable.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by jackson1442 on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:53PM (#32345347)
I at least personally appreciate it because when I get in my car after class (to drive the place I drive 90% of the time after class–home) it'll push an ETA onto my lock screen. It's not always right but it's generally very predictable (and can be disabled).
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by tobylane on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:48AM (#32343618)
But did Dunkin’ Donuts learn your address and buying habits when it paid for that advert? Apple could be serving you accurate ads that rely on collected data, while only telling DD that an ad was sold to Apple’s idea of a relevant viewer and let them judge if they want to buy more. I think we need to distinguish this, perhaps you are with the walled garden spying. Do you trust the option to reset your advertiser ID?
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by colmmacc on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:54AM (#32343716)
You're most likely right about what Dunkin' Donuts know. I'm less confident about what Apple themselves know. Apple have people talented enough that they can build a privacy-preserving back-end too so that their operators and staff have no way to know where I was. I hope that is how it works, but I've never seen it explained that way. If Apple end up on the wrong end of broad subpoenas to find out who was near abortion clinics ... getting better recommendations for donuts wasn't worth it.
Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by lotsofpulp on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:01PM (#32344636)
> Apple end up on the wrong end of broad subpoenas to find out who was near abortion clinics

I would be more concerned about ATT/Verizon/T-Mobile, who have real-time data on where every connected phone is all the time and a FISA court can always serve them with a secret warrant.

Also, what you are describing is not Dunkin paying Apple for an advertisement. If it is, then it would be huge news that Apple is pushing non Apple ads to its devices.

Re:Apple is building a demand-side platform by lmm on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:39PM (#32350892)
> who have real-time data on where every connected phone is all the time

Not really. They know which mast it's connected to and can do signal strength triangulation. Their location info is a lot less good than what the device makers with wifi map data can give you, hence why every so often we get a news story about how Uber knows where you are a lot better than a 911 operator does.