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Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by markvdb on Monday August 01, 2022 @03:56AM (#32303255)
Let's compare daily average household domestic water consumption:

- where I live: 202l [0]

- US: >1135l [1]

US household consumption share of total water usage: 12% [1].

Just reducing household usage to 50% more than a random wealthy northwestern European region instead of 560%(!) more equals 10% total water usage savings. That's without even touching agriculture or other water hungry sectors.

Aligning usage to be a little less out of line with production seems like the obvious answer here.

- But you live in Europe, not the US. You couldn't possibly know how miserable life would be without watering my lawn in the middle of the desert. And what would the neighbours say?

- We only have one earth. It's _ours_ you know, not just yours. And our children's. And our children's children's..."

[0] https://www.vmm.be/data/gemiddeld-leidingwaterverbruik-gezin... (nl)

[1] https://www.epa.gov/watersense/how-we-use-water

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by fmajid on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:19AM (#32303656)
Residential consumption is not the issue, subsidized water for agriculture in California is. Agricultural users paid as little$70 an acre-foot for water, which is less than a thousandth the residential rate.

Under the state’s ridiculously baroque system of senior water rights, just because someone was first to nail a notice to a tree by a river in the 19th Century, everybody else in the area has to cut their water consumption to zero before their allocation can be reduced. No state politician has been brave enough to fix this because reform would be tied down in litigation for decades, as in Mark Twain’s possibly apocryphal quote that “whisky is for drinking and water’s for fighting over.”

This broken system does not incentivize efficient drip irrigation, in many places they simply flood the fields with water, and you have absurdities like the despicable Saudis buying up land with senior rights and growing alfalfa, a low-value and water-intensive crop they export to Arabia to feed cows, which is basically laundering water exports.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by oliwarner on Monday August 01, 2022 @09:41AM (#32305807)
> is not the issue

I think this is the biggest issue with every resource and climate issue right now. As soon as you point out something significant, somebody pops up with "But that's not the real issue", and points to another three.

US domestic, residential resource usage (water, raw energy, fossil fuel) is so amazingly out of whack with the rest of the world that it's starting to demoralise the rest of us.

This is a problem that can be fixed but it won't if you just want to point at other problems.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by ianai on Monday August 01, 2022 @11:01AM (#32306921)
How many countries successfully built highway systems by leaving the construction of them to private people? How about rail systems? Because a national water grid is closer to a power grid or highway system ie fundamental, critical, and national infrastructure than something even an hoa could pull off.

These “arguments” for “personal responsibility” are increasingly shallow. The rhetorical equivalent of grabbing someones whole arm, forcing that arm to hit themselves, and asking “why are you hitting yourself? You’re so silly!” Ie abuse.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by oliwarner on Monday August 01, 2022 @12:12PM (#32308219)
Where did I argue for personal responsibility or privately built infrastructure? Are you replying to the right comment?

The US needs to take national responsibility for energy consumption and water use. From agriculture to residential and everything in between. That will involve a lot of Federal and state funded infrastructure but also a lot of subsidised home improvement, and tax. The whole US needs to take this seriously, we all do.

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying we should ignore any of the issues you talked about; rather it's your approach of ignoring domestic because of argri that I think sends the wrong message to everyone.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by Siddarth1977 on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @12:53AM (#32315224)
I agree there is a frustrating tendency to get into deflecting blame and pointing at different things, the situation with water is perhaps not a great example.

If you focus on household water usage, you'll have many people oppose your effort because they don't want to take shorter showers or buy a new washing machine. If you point out that some corporation is paying pennies to drain an aquifer to grow a water-intensive crop like almonds in the desert, it's easier to get the political base to affect real change.

Basically, you can try to get the majority of people to choose the greater societal good over their own comfort and convenience (good luck, humans suck) or you can try to convince enough of them to not let the almond farmers continue pillaging the shared water supply, which feels more politically viable.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by oliwarner on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @03:57AM (#32316169)
This works both ways.

If you mandate low flow (eg 6l/minute, half regular showers) via building code, and strengthen water efficiency standards for appliances, make company licensing factor in energy and water usage, and in tougher times, enforce hosepipe and sprinkler bans, private pools, etc... then it makes it a lot easier to lean on agri.

There might be a strong enough argument for prioritising agriculture, but that's only something you can start to appreciate once you appreciate the cost of water, which you can't if your only experience is that it's limitless at every point of use.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by fmajid on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @02:55PM (#32322824)
The problem is not agriculture per se, but the inefficient way it uses water due to the perverse incentives of California's water rights system. They could get the same output for way less water using drip irrigation, but that costs more than simply flooding with water. The first step is to abolish senior rights, the second is to remove subsidies so all users pay the same rate at actual cost.
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by geysersam on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:31AM (#32303738)
> laundering water exports

Sorry I might be ignorant but this sounds ridiculous. How could that ever be economically viable? If you wanted to import water, there are plenty of places (less populated than California) closer to the Arabic peninsula (not on the other side of the world) where water is more plentiful.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by tzs on Monday August 01, 2022 @09:59AM (#32306032)
He's overlooking that the amount of water used to grow a plant is much more than the amount of water that ends up in the plant. For alfalfa 0.005% of the water used to grow it ends up in the product. The remaining 99.995% ends up mostly in the atmosphere around where the plants are grown, either by transpiration from the plants or by evaporation from the soil around the plants.
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by pfranz on Monday August 01, 2022 @11:28AM (#32307420)
I've heard "exporting water" used as shorthand for the issue quite often. Sure, the water is still there, but it is still taking a large amount of potable water and making it non-potable. You're still diverting that water from the natural ecosystem even if it still end up "back in the environment."
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by mcculley on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:33AM (#32304110)
It would not be economically viable without the market distortion caused by the subsidization.

See https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-w...

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by concordDance on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:03AM (#32303896)
> - We only have one earth. It's _ours_ you know, not just yours. And our children's. And our children's children's..."

This makes no sense as a response. Water usage is a local issue where water goes through X rather than Y. Water usage in Pakistan has zero effect on Germany, unlike CO2 emmissions.

If an entire river got diverted to lawns then the effects would only be between the divert point and the sea (in the form of the river nor being available for other people to divert from and animal life not having a river to live in) and even those effects are mostly temporary. Heck, lawn water mostly goes back in to the water table, with the rest evaporating to make clouds to then fall back as rain.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by throw0101a on Monday August 01, 2022 @08:49AM (#32305219)
> Water usage is a local issue where water goes through X rather than Y. Water usage in Pakistan has zero effect on Germany, unlike CO2 emmissions.

Not entirely accurate:

> The virtual water trade (also known as embedded or embodied water) is the hidden flow of water in food or other commodities that are traded from one place to another.[1] The virtual water trade is the idea that when goods and services are exchanged, so is virtual water.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_water

A concrete example from another comment:

> With the Saudi Arabian landscape there being mostly desert and alfalfa being a water-intensive crop, growing it there has always been expensive and draining on scarce water resources, to the point that the Saudi government finally outlawed the practice in 2016. In the wake of the ban, Almarai decided to purchase land wherever it is cheap and has favorable water conditions to produce enough feed for its 93,000 cows.

* https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-w...

* https://archive.ph/0gKrs

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by feet on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:28AM (#32304074)
I understand the point you are making about areas that are far apart, but in some cases it really isn't local. The Colorado river is one good example.
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by HPsquared on Monday August 01, 2022 @07:25AM (#32304475)
I suppose water (at least natural water from rivers) is one of the few actual zero-sum games in economics. No matter not hard you try, it won't rain more, and a given river only has so much water to give.
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by concordDance on Monday August 01, 2022 @08:08AM (#32304832)
> No matter not hard you try, it won't rain more

Cloud seeding is being studied.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by bee_rider on Monday August 01, 2022 @10:49AM (#32306745)
That seems like it must be taking water from whoever is downwind (but maybe that's the ocean).
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by yellowflash on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:11AM (#32303331)
One of them is per family and other per person (family of size 1). Is it even comparable? I am not saying it is lesser, it's pretty high, probably 200% not 560% if I am right.
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by simonh on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:25AM (#32303392)
Family size of 1 is given as 108L each, but average usage per member of a family of 2.3 people is given as 89L each, so presumably an average total household usage in Flanders would be about 2.3 x 89 = 205L. I'm not sure where OP gets the 202L number from, it doesn't appear anywhere on the page. Possibly mis-reading a date as a consumption, hence I'm using capital L for Litres.

That's more than 5x less than the US. It's quite plausible the average family size and environmental conditions in Flanders differ quite a bit from that in the US, but it's still a huge disparity, and according to the second link a lot of that seems to be down to domestic irrigation. Tackling that wouldn't be very popular, of course.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by markvdb on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:10AM (#32303613)
The headline says 74000l/household/year. Divide by roughly 365 days a year = 202.7392l/day. I made a rounding error and didn't read further down. Still a very useful approximation I'd say.
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by dillondoyle on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:03AM (#32303583)
Isn't this just an argument that individual consumption is not the problem? And likely a planned distraction perpetrated by agriculture & industry.

I half agree with the author in that "conservation simply can’t do the job" but their supposition seems to be framed as household use alone.

Conservation changes / remove wasteful agriculture would be plenty.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by sshine on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:16AM (#32303360)
> And our children's children's...

I believe in making the world safe for our children, but not our children’s children, because I don’t think children should be having sex. (Jack Handey)

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by cozos on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:09AM (#32303607)
What is causing this? Is it mostly watering the lawn and gardening? Or do Americans just take longer showers? Are our toilets bigger?
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by bandyaboot on Monday August 01, 2022 @10:20AM (#32306298)
> Are our toilets bigger?

Actually it’s the opposite.

“People are flushing toilets 10 times, 15 times as opposed to once.”

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by mrguyorama on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:17PM (#32310071)
You can't just drop something absurd like that with no evidence or citation
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by bandyaboot on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:35AM (#32317710)
One of Trump’s many absurd statements.

https://apnews.com/article/7a9a494570b7a505017e726ddbea321f

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by di4na on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:47AM (#32303818)
Mostly watering the lawn and gardening if you follow the data
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by JoBrad on Monday August 01, 2022 @08:28PM (#32313868)
The epa link shows that 24% is toilet, 20% shower, and 19% faucet. I expected clothes washers (17%) to be far higher, frankly.
[dead]
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by modo_mario on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:11AM (#32303619)
>we don't want to live in little small cupboards like Europeans, where electricity and fuel is unthinkably expensive.

You also don't want to stop outputting twice as much CO2 as the average European I presume. Nor is the US population density expected to triple in an instant.

>A change in thinking towards Nuclear, and hopefully eventually Fusion, would help Europe be more prosperous.

At least I can agree there.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by benj111 on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:33AM (#32303441)
Do Europeans live in small cupboards?

There are energy exporting nations in Europe and they're still more energy efficient than the US.

Is Europe also food poor because they experience lower rates of obesity? Is eating yourself to death an expression of freedom and the great American dream?

>expansive thinking Yes why don't you take your own advice.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by elbigbad on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:42AM (#32303481)
I am in Europe now and am an American, I’ve lived in various major cities in USA including east and west coast. I have also lived in a handful of major European cities. So while my opinion is anecdotal still, it’s not uninformed.

Comparatively yes, Europeans live in small cupboards by and large. There has to be some data on per capita living spaces between the two though. Largely anecdotally, I’d say people in NYC who are interns or new in careers out of school live in the same sized places that people in, for example, London or Brussels live for their entire lives, per capita speaking.

Additionally they drive much smaller cars, as you probably know.

None of this is a bad thing, it does tend to be an artifact of smaller, walkable cities and a sacrifice for that sort of thing.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by morsch on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:14AM (#32303975)
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by elbigbad on Monday August 01, 2022 @01:48PM (#32309611)
Thanks! This tracks my experience, good to hear it somewhat justified with data.
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by benj111 on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:43PM (#32310418)
I wouldn't describe 4/5ths the size of a house as a cupboard.

50sqm sounds small to me. Does that mean that Germans and Americans live in cupboards?

Or does it mean that that people prioritise different things?

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by morsch on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:37PM (#32312352)
50 m2 per person. Presumably single person households are a bit larger, and families a bit smaller than 50 m2 per member, but that's just an educated guess.
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by jollybean on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:46AM (#32303497)
So much for the bigotry.

Europeans are almost as fat as Americans and White Europeans are basically the same as White Europeans in that regard.

I've lived all over both continents and yes, Europeans live in very small flats. Energy is prohibitively expensive.

I enjoy European culture a bit more (both have advantages), but in North America you have the choice generally to live big or small. Not everyone needs a big home (or ranch) but wide open spaces are really nice.

We probably all have an overpopulation problem, but it'd be really, really nice to solve our energy problems, it comes along with fixing climate change and dumping Russians and Saudis from having so much power as we currently are sending them all of our surplus.

And yes, we already 'expansive thinking' in North America, it's why generally we have a bit more material abundance and are a bit wealthier at least by economic measures.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by dagw on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:56AM (#32303548)
but in North America you have the choice generally to live big or small

How is that different in Europe? For the price of a one room flat in the centre of the nice part of town you can equally get a nice big house with a garden way out of town if that is what you prefer. Sure US houses tend to be bigger on average, but it's not like you can't buy a big house on the cheap if that is what you want. You just have to be willing to live an hour+ drive away from anything in a place with no jobs.

The only real difference is that, on average, Europeans tend to prioritise shorter commutes and living closer to town over large homes.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by solar-ice on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:37AM (#32304133)
> The only real difference is that, on average, Europeans tend to prioritise shorter commutes and living closer to town over large homes.

And afaict Americans /are prohibited from/ prioritising that due to zoning - it is nearly impossible to get an apartment close to shops, work, and functioning public transit.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by jollybean on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:40PM (#32310377)
Homes (and flats) in North America are substantially bigger than those in the US and you generally don't have to go 'way out'.

If you go 'substantially out of town' in North America you can live in quite a seriously large home, a size that generally doesn't have comparison in Europe.

Finally, in North America, in most places just 2 hours from the city you can have 'vast' acreage. Very big plots of land.

So the 'size' comparison from flats, to suburban homes, to extra urban homes, to mini-ranches doesn't really compare.

Of course, that comes with significantly more energy usage.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by arethuza on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:09AM (#32303942)
Indeed - as someone who moved from a (large) flat in central Edinburgh - if you go one hour out of Edinburgh (which is an easy commute if you go somewhere near a train line) then you get an awful lot more for your money.

A nice single bedroom flat in the centre of Edinburgh is about £400K - that'll get you a pretty nice house with a garden somewhere like Fife.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by geraldwhen on Monday August 01, 2022 @05:58AM (#32303877)
You can have large homes close to work (<20 mins) in much of the USA.

I can count on my hand the number of people I know with a commute longer than 30 mins.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by concordDance on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:24AM (#32304041)
Average US housing has 3x the floor space and land space as a British house. The Brits are very poor by US standards.
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by solar-ice on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:44AM (#32304177)
Yes, but the average US house is basically in the middle of the countryside by British standards, that's the difference. We could say Americans are very poor by British standards since they can't live near shops, work, etc.

If you want to live an hour outside the city and drive everywhere, you can rent a 3-bedroom detached house of a similar size as a US house reasonably easily, for about the same price. The difference is that when you give people a choice - which they don't have in much of the US - many apparently choose not to do that.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by concordDance on Monday August 01, 2022 @08:30AM (#32305041)
> If you want to live an hour outside the city and drive everywhere, you can rent a 3-bedroom detached house of a similar size as a US house reasonably easily, for about the same price.

Nonesense. I just checked on rightmove for a three bed in Wallingford (a tiny town in central England a km across that consists entirely of suburbs and is an hour's drive from the edge of London). It's about 30% smaller than the average US residence while costing just under a million dollars.

Heck, Ramsey is in the middle of bloody nowhere and its still >$400k for a three bed half the size of what you can get inside Chicago city for the same price.

Brits struggle to comprehend just how much worse off we are than the Americans. Similar housing (similar type of location etc) costs 3x-6x as much despite Brits earning less.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by solar-ice on Monday August 01, 2022 @11:26AM (#32307379)
I recently visited Denver for work - I have never felt so entirely trapped in my life. That's not better off to me - not having the freedom to walk, to take the bus, because you're surrounded by what I would call a "motorway" and they call a "street" is something I don't understand.

Imagine trying to raise your kids to be independent human beings when they can't walk to the shops, can't visit their friends without mummy or daddy driving them, and can't take the bus to the local swimming pool/cinema/library/whatever.

Anyway, try not looking around London, it's not the only city in the UK, believe it or not. And I mentioned rent rather than purchase price. Nobody in my social circle can buy in either the US or the UK.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by concordDance on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:32PM (#32311670)
> Anyway, try not looking around London, it's not the only city in the UK, believe it or not.

Ramsey is in North England.

> Nobody in my social circle can buy in either the US or the UK.

I could afford to buy a decent place in over 90% of the USA. Not here though (budget of £300k).

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by orf on Monday August 01, 2022 @04:48PM (#32311847)
Ramsey, Cambridgeshire, is most certainly not in Northern England. Anyone who suggests so probably has suspect knowledge.

However you both have points. But I expect that the houses you’re looking at on rightmove are not affordable, new builds, which typically are not clustered around the kinds of places you used as examples.

And a lot of USA houses are built so very cheaply. You don’t get many thatched houses stateside, right?

Not to say that English new-builds in the last 20 years are stellar examples of construction, but you do generally get a lot more house for your money.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by dagw on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:01AM (#32316532)
And a lot of USA houses are built so very cheaply.

Hopefully things have substantially improved since I last lived in the UK 20 years ago, but all the places I've lived in the UK where pretty bad. Single pane windows that rattle in the frame when it's windy, drafts from everywhere, damp everywhere, people arguing that a bit of mold in the bathroom is normal, no insulation, 150 years old houses with 120 year old plumbing, no central heating...and no one seemed to see any of this as a problem

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by vidarh on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:37AM (#32304134)
Average housing is mediated by where people want to live and preferences around the value of space. I could move elsewhere in the UK and have 5x the space for the same price, or I could buy a castle in France. But while that castle might be tempting for retirement, I value living close to the centre of London more than I value the extra space.
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by jollybean on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:44PM (#32310427)
Yes, supply and demand. And there's considerably more 'supply' of land in the US. Homes are considerably less expensive in comparable relative terms.

So is energy. So is food.

So those are some very primary inputs into the cost of living, which means we live 'expansively' in North America.

In Europe people are super concerned about 'cutting back' that mentality hasn't quite hit in North America.

I suggest Americans will be more interested in aggressively increasing energy production, rather than learning how to live with less, except in some circumstances where I'm sure European advances in 'water saving dishwashers' etc. will be welcome.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by vidarh on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @02:43PM (#32322693)
My point is that supply and demand is heavily affected by priorities, and so you need to account for people's priorities if you want to make assumptions about what the difference in size means.

There is plenty of affordable land in Europe, but instead we're seeing even people who do not need to move to more expensive cities for work still do so because we willingly choose smaller houses.

That is not to say that there aren't plenty of people who would like more space, but I've personally worked with people who "wanted" more space, but only if they didn't have to move even one fare zone on public transport further out, because they liked to be dead centre of a major metropolis.

My example of a French castle was not random - I'm considering retiring to France eventually, and for the cost of my house in London, I can literally buy a castle 10x the size of my house, on huge grounds.

Yet today I would not swap my house for a castle even though I work 100% remote and could do so if it suited my lifestyle, because my location currently matters more to me than more space.

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by arethuza on Monday August 01, 2022 @07:48AM (#32304669)
US homes often look like rather insubstantial temporary structures to me.
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by benj111 on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:51PM (#32310509)
The US has an obesity rate of 36.20% the highest rate of obesity in Europe is the UK with 27.8% the rest of Europe is in the low 20s. So 'almost as fat' is actually closer to 'a third less fat' and at best '25% less fat'

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/obesity-r...

Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by aaaaaaaaaaab on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:02AM (#32303887)
Cupboards are made of plywood. Who builds their houses from plywood, Americans or Europeans? :-)
Re:Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving wa... by dismalpedigree on Monday August 01, 2022 @08:22AM (#32304962)
Must be the Europeans. Plywood is too expensive for the crap quality housing in many parts of America. Think particle board or just a glorified tarp separating the thin vinyl siding from the interior.