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Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:16AM (#32106571)
What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by stevenjgarner on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:28AM (#32107012)
What amazes me about heavier than air flight is that it was invented all over the planet at virtually the same time by all kinds of unrelated people who had no connection or communication with or little knowledge of one another. Sure here in the US we ethnocentrically recite the Kitty Hawk event of the Wright Brothers as if it appeared in a vacuum out of nowhere. But in reality, heavier than air flight was invented simultaneously (by the standards of the time) at multiple places all over the world from New Zealand (March 1903) [1] to the USA (December 1903) [2]. It's as if human consciousness just exploded with a new-found ability to fly all over the earth all at once.

Closer examination shows that like most human inventions, these breakthrough moments are the final incremental accumulation of ideas that were a long-time coming. In the case of flight, there were centuries of lighter than air flying methods based on buoyancy and displacement [3]. Then gradually an understanding of fixed wing aerodynamics evolved (e.g. the impressive work of people like George Cayley [4] and Otto Lilienthal [5]). It was the parallel development of combustion engines that made the Kitty Hawk and Waitohi moments eventually possible (which I think might really the answer to your question "why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier?"). While the invention of the steam engine gave rise to the entire industrial revolution, piston steam engines of the time were too heavy to power flight. The internal combustion engine was finally applied to the automobile by Karl Benz in 1885 [6] and within the relatively short span of 18 years had evolved to the point where powering an aerodynamic surface was feasible. Just 66 years later man walked on the moon.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pearse

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_flying_machines

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cayley

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Lilienthal

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Benz

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by qubex on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:58AM (#32107651)
It’s pretty common that “breakthrough inventions” are arrived-at pretty much simultaneously by apparently disparate sources at approximately the same moment in time.

Consider the telephone, which is attributed to Alexander Graham Bell in most of the world and to Antonio Meucci in my native Italy. Or radio, which is broadly attributed to Marconi or Tesla. In hindsight it seems like one person triumphed upon others, but really if you look at it from their point of view they work with urgency and secrecy because they perceive themselves to be in neck-to-neck competition with their cohorts. They perceive their technological environ very differently from how we do ex post facto.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by jaclaz on Friday July 15, 2022 @12:59PM (#32110244)
>which is attributed to Alexander Graham Bell in most of the world and to Antonio Meucci in my native Italy.

The US congress did vote a resolution that cleared the matter (in 2002, a bit late I would say):

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/volume-148/iss...

But in this case Bell and Meucci weren't much disparate sources.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by qubex on Friday July 15, 2022 @02:50PM (#32111530)
I’m honestly stunned because I had no idea this issue had been raised, much less addressed.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by jaclaz on Saturday July 16, 2022 @03:59AM (#32116080)
Yep, the US somehow cleared the matter, but Canada swiftly affirmed the opposite in a one liner:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_of_the_telephone

https://web.archive.org/web/20141222093046/http://www2.parl....

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by stevenjgarner on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:23AM (#32107900)
Agreed. Definitely makes you wonder about the fairness of intellectual property.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:48AM (#32107120)
I think that what you say is probably true, but things like thermal-riding or slope-soaring gliders would have been very useful (for the military, if nothing else) before the invention of the IC engine.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dane-pgp on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:17AM (#32107849)
As discussed further down, kites were indeed seen as useful for the military in the late 19th century. Wikipedia says[0]

> In the early 1890s, Captain B.F.S Baden-Powell ... developed his "Levitor" kite, a hexagonal-shaped kite intended to be used by the army in order to lift a man for aerial observation or for lifting large loads such as a wireless antenna.

A glider may not have been suitable for carrying an antenna, but aerial observation via glider is an idea that must have occurred to people in the army, even before the invention of the IC engine.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-lifting_kite

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by Ekaros on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:50AM (#32107134)
Big questions is getting those to air, what you actually do with them and then how to solve communicating from them. Just think of how very early WW1 planes were actually used.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:53AM (#32107156)
At the speed armies moved back in the (say) 15th century, this would probably not been such a problem, but I take your point.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by eesmith on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:10AM (#32107266)
> who had no connection or communication with or little knowledge of one another

There was a large enthusiastic group of people working on heavier-than-air flight, with with meetings and newspaper publications. The Spectator has an article titled "Flying Motor-Cars" at https://archive.org/details/sim_spectator-uk_1901-08-31_87_3... which comments:

] The mechanical skill of the world, which is very great, greater perhaps than its originality in scientific investigation, is directing itself for the moment to two definite ends, — the construction of an efficient submarine boat, and the invention of a machine that can travel with at least two persons on board through the air.

That the Wright Brothers didn't know Pearse is besides the point - both drew from shared materials, and a lot of people were trying. Here's a couple of reports from the New York Times:

"TO FLY FROM PIKE'S PEAK.; W.F. Felts Tries His New Aeroplane at Different Altitudes. [Aug. 4, 1897] (followed soon by SNOWSTORM ON PIKE'S PEAK.; W. B. Felts Did Not Attempt His Aeroplane Flight Yesterday.)"

Or "EXPECTS TO BE ABLE TO FLY.; Prof. Bell Believes He Has Mastered the Two Great Difficulties of Aerial Navigation.". That's Alexander Graham Bell.

Your [4] even mentions 'The Wright brothers acknowledged [Cayley's] importance to the development of aviation'.

> here in the US we ethnocentrically recite the Kitty Hawk event of the Wright Brothers as if it appeared in a vacuum out of nowhere

Where do you get that impression?

Here's a children's book from the US about the Wright Brothers. https://archive.org/details/letsflywilburorv00roop/page/36/m...

] In 1896, when he was twenty-five years old, Orville was very sick with typhoid fever and almost died. Wilbur and Katharine cared for him. Wilbur read while sitting with Orville. He read about Otto Lilienthal, who was trying to fly. Lilienthal built gliders and had flown farther than anyone else in the world. But Otto Lilienthal had a gliding accident and died. The Wright brothers were saddened by this news because they admired Mr. Lilienthal and his attempts to fly.

] ... In England, France, the United States, and other countries, people were trying to unlock the mystery of flight.

] ... Wilbur learned all he could about flying. He took every book about it out of the Dayton library. Samuel Langley the head of the Smithsonian Institution, was trying to learn how to fly Wilbur decided to write the Smithsonian. A man there sent Wilbur information.

] The famous engineer Octave Chanute was also experimenting with gliders. Wilbur wrote him, too. Mr. Chanute quickly became a friend of the Wright brothers.

Hardly a vacuum!

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:39AM (#32107478)
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by vimy on Friday July 15, 2022 @02:57PM (#32111606)
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by rowanG077 on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:23AM (#32107335)
It's pretty common for things like that to happen. There are many other cases. Calculus from Newton and Leipzig being another example. There is even a wikipedia page delving into the concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery

Basic hypothesis is that once enough precondition for an invention are there then the leap can be made.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dane-pgp on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:26AM (#32107936)
I stared for a long time at your third sentence before I remembered that Leibniz is the correct name of the German mathematician you are referring to, and Leipzig is a German city (where, coincidentally, he was born).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Wilhelm_Leibniz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by rowanG077 on Friday July 15, 2022 @10:39AM (#32108652)
Haha Autocorrect I think. I indeed meant to write Leibniz. Pretty embarrassing considering my high school was named after him.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by iso1631 on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:34AM (#32106700)
Heavier than air flight dates back at least 2500 years from bamboo helicopter toys in China, with various others through the 17th to 19th century, however the first manned, powered, controlled flight of a heavier-than-air craft wasn't until Whitehead, Wright et. al at the end of the 19th century

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_flying_machines#Primitiv...

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by narag on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:31AM (#32106667)
Only the tough materials (stone, bones, metal, pottery) remain. I always wonder how many civilizations disappeared without a trace because they built their cities with wood.

Maybe a lot of devices were invented and reinvented many times and then forgotten because there wasn't a practical purpose for them at the moment.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by masswerk on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:13AM (#32107277)
My favorite example is the Antikythera mechanism. It is quite clear that this had not been a one-of-a-kind, but that there must have been (many) predecessors of this technology to arrive at the kind of workmanship and layout that doesn't show any marks of hesitation or corrections as in the sole example, we know of. And that we know of this example at all, is just by sheer luck.

Generally, we only know of landmark size applications of historical technology, which tend to be rare.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by jacquesm on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:40AM (#32107486)
It probably wasn't as common as the slide rule was in the 50's but I'm pretty sure there were more of these and some predecessors as well. The chance that we have found the only example that ever existed for something so useful seems slim.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by saalweachter on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:03AM (#32107214)
It's probably the case that foundations get invented pretty darn quick in a civilization that builds primarily with wood. Wood rots too fast in environments where (a) trees grow and (b) wood is in contact with the ground.

Midden heaps can also close the gap.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by globalise83 on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:32AM (#32106675)
I often wonder the same. As someone with a hobby of making unpowered gliders from balsa wood and laminating sheets, I often wonder why such simple contraptions (I can make very nice gliders with around 20 pieces of wood and one sheet) weren't discovered using easily available woods and paper many centuries ago and extrapolated to bigger machines with fabric and wooden struts. Seems that the raw materials would have been available in Roman times and only very minimal amounts of theory (as opposed to trial and error tinkering) are required. Truly remarkable that gliding firebombs and the like were never invented for warfare.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by morelisp on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:42AM (#32106750)
> Truly remarkable that gliding firebombs and the like were never invented for warfare.

What? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kite#Military_applications

Steering is important though, you need to a) go up, b) go the right place, not back at you, c) come down, again not where you are.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by pbhjpbhj on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:10AM (#32107781)
I wonder how much people tried to develop ballistae projectiles, perhaps once they had bolts/darts they were good enough and longer range just wasn't necessary?
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by morelisp on Friday July 15, 2022 @12:23PM (#32109782)
In most cases if your goal is just to get some explosives over a tall wall, a trebuchet or siege tower is probably sufficient. On the other hand, if you have a lot of gunpowder, a cannon is also pretty fine on its own without any need to go up-and-over.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by earthbee on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:38AM (#32106719)
Maybe because trial an error improvement isn't possible if you're actually flying the vehicle? Just a guess.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:46AM (#32106780)
Solution: send your butler up in it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cayley

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:43AM (#32106759)
Yeah, I used to build toy gliders too - it's really easy, though with balsa of course, which would not have been available in western Europe during the Renaissance (so tough shit Leonardo) but there are other light-weight materials, which is what sparked my question.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:06AM (#32106895)
Spruce was used in aviation through WWII.

Boeing was located in Seattle to be near wood supplies needed in aircraft fabrication. (Well, that and its founder was already in the lumber business.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Boeing

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by 7952 on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:07AM (#32106900)
Aeroplanes rely on light and strong materials with a high power to weight ratio energy source. Without that it is difficult to make the physics work. The internal combustion engine made it more possible.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by Traubenfuchs on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:56AM (#32106834)
Those "simple contraptions" probably were invented, many times, at different places all over earth. Just for fun and as a hobby. No records were made because no one considered those things worthy. People just never thought big or never had the opportunity to.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by masswerk on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:45AM (#32106769)
Mind Eilmer of Malmesbury, first flight between 995 and 1010 CE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilmer_of_Malmesbury

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by masswerk on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:56AM (#32106832)
P.S.: The story of Eilmer also hints at what may have been the real problem, which may have haunted early fliers, not so much flying/gliding, but safe landing.

Another thing is topography: Either you have (steep) local elevations as a natural starting point for gliding, but then there is usually not much of an open space to go for a real application. Or there are wide open spaces, but no natural elevations. (Mind Eilmer starting from a tower.) So, even if you know about the principles, there's not much application for human flight, rendering it rather for use as a toy. (There are hints for bird-shaped gliding toys in ancient Egypt. But was there really a human-flight scale application in an all flat landscape like this?)

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:14AM (#32107286)
Annecdote time: I live in Lincoln, UK - to the East everything is flat as a pancake until you get to the Wolds, and to the west we have the similarly flat floodplain of the Trent river. In between, we have the very steep Lincolnshire Edge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Cliff) and the prospective aeronaut could have jumped off Lincoln Cathedral (https://lincolncathedral.com)- way back when the highest building in the world. So ideal for developing a useful glider.

And of course Lincolnshire is famous for being "bomber country" in WW2 - weather and geography helping to get the horribly overladen beasts airborn.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by goto11 on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:58AM (#32106846)
Probably because sustained heavier-than-air flight requires an engine. So same reason the car was not invented earlier - a coal-powered steam engine is too heavy.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:08AM (#32106913)
Steam has other disadvantages.

It's quite good at steady-power output. Throttle response is poor.

Both automobiles and aircraft operate with quite variable power requirements. Though at least for long-range air travel, once the take-off / climb portion of flight has been completed, cruise is typically at a fairly constant setting.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by Koshkin on Friday July 15, 2022 @05:03PM (#32112794)
I does not have to be "sustained" for more than a few minutes to be called a flight.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deltaplane

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by goto11 on Saturday July 16, 2022 @04:11AM (#32116131)
Sure, but beside the point. There are many historical examples of heavier-than-air flight (kites, gliders etc.), but without means of self-propulsion it is not very practically useful.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:00AM (#32106861)
Powered flight came about virtually the moment a high power-to-weight engine (based on aluminium and petrol fuel) existed.

Once rapid design-build-test cycles were practial, the initial Wright design rapidly shifted to a monocoque fuselage with forward wings and empennage, emerging within a decade.

In just over 30 years after the Wright's first powered flight, the DC-3, an aircraft still in commercial operation was flying. It has been described as the perfection of aircraft design, and the major elements of its design are still present on contemporary aircraft, though of course jet engines have largely replace reciprocating piston engines.

Major factors in successful powered or unpowered flight have been understanding aerodynamics (largely through experimentation and test flights, increasingly through modelling), materials (pre-industrial materials are poorly suited to human-scale aircraft or gliders), controls (both theory and interfaces), powerplants (on powered aircraft).

Ultralights, hang gliders, and sailplanes all benefit greatly from specific materials: Nylon for wings, aluminium for structural members, plastics, and steel for wires and cables. Instrumentation, navigation, communications, transponders (safety) and radar (collision detection) also factor in.

Virtually all of these are dependent on earlier stages of industrialisation: smelting of iron and aluminium, petroleum chemistry and textiles fabrication for Nylon and plastics, earlier aviation engineering for general flight handling and control theory, electronics for instrumentation, radio, and radar, plus domain knowledge from other fields such as physics (instrumentation, controls, etc.).

TL;DR: Prerequisites and path dependencies.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by criley2 on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:02AM (#32107209)
>Powered flight came about virtually the moment a high power-to-weight engine (based on aluminium and petrol fuel) existed.

The only thing I would change is that this makes it seem like powered flight was waiting on the engine, when it was waiting on the plane.

One thing that struck me at the Museum of Flight in Seattle is how far advanced IC technology was while the Wright brothers were gliding in wooden contraptions. They had turbocharged v12 diesel engines and Benz was already making aluminum engines for cars before the Wright brothers made their first attempt.

I found it fascinating how as soon as flight was demonstrated, it only took a few years to go from a wooden prototype to a sophisticated machine with a very complex engine.

Bonus pic of some of those early engines https://i.imgur.com/mENnuHH.png

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by matthewdgreen on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:26AM (#32107937)
Or rather, that development of the plane was waiting on the engine. The Wright brothers did all of their iteration and experimentation on relatively flat terrain flying close to the ground, which is how they were able to survive at least eight major crashes (and probably more minor ones.) Without an engine this kind of iterative experimentation seems almost impossible: you’d need to launch from a height, which means the first minor failure probably kills you and destroys the prototype.

And of course even if you survive the iterative development process, all you’ve got is a (largely) useless glider until the engine comes along and you can commercialize it.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by jodrellblank on Friday July 15, 2022 @12:22PM (#32109758)
See the Caproni Transaero from 1921, with eight engines and nine wings it’s right from the time you are talking about - putting engines on a fixed wing solid plane body is possible but sufficient understanding of flight is still missing.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=uYn6fyGNg7c

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @02:33PM (#32111359)
Excellent example. And a beautiful failure to boot.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:34AM (#32107421)
Could have used a rocket? They've been around for ages.

It seems to me that for flight the construction materials (silk, bamboo, string, glue - what the early WW1-era aircraft were made from) and the propulsion (solid-fuel rocket) have been around for over a thousand years.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @05:25PM (#32112979)
Rockets require suitable fuels.

The original Chinese designs relied on gunpowder. This is self-oxydising and burns rapidly, but has a comparatively low power density, roughly 1/10th that of liquid petroleum fuels.

Liquid fuel such as alcohol and oil existed, but the notion let alone the availability of oxidizers didn't until the early 19th century. The first use of liquid oxygen in rockets didn't occur until 1926, by Robert Goddard.

Hypergolics or solid rocket motors would have been other options, but both are still pretty advanced. I've no idea how likely they'd have been.

One of the more viable solid fuels might have been rocket candy, made of sugar and usually potassium nitrate as an oxidizer. Both would have been available.

Demonstration here: https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=12fR9neVnS8

Whether or not that would generate sufficiently strong and reliable thrust for a steampunk JATO launch, I'm not sure.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by Ekaros on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:07AM (#32107743)
Yes, but no...

Rocket does have the trust ratio needed. But then there is questions of burn time and control. So you could get up there, with some risk. But not stay there for very long time.

Short googling for solid fuel rockets seem that longest burn times are less than 3 minutes... And that is best case scenario with 20th/21st century technology...

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:19AM (#32107864)
But once you are up there you are up there, and professinal glider pilots can stay up there for ever, using thermals etc.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @02:24PM (#32111269)
My suspicion is that a lot of the basics of glider flight were a lot easlier to discover / develop with powered aircraft. Given the relatively low power-output, and reliability, of early engines, many early aircraft might be considered (intermittently) powered gliders.

It could still have been possible to work things out based on JATO launch, though the hang-glider approach of low sand-dune testing / training would probably have been safer and a better overall option.

Powered aviation also helped drive and prove materials design enhancements and general aviation theory, controls, avionics, etc., all of which transfer well to gliders, but would very likely have been far more difficult to develop in a a glider-only regime.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @03:01PM (#32111638)
Actually many gliders, such as thosed used by the nascent Luftwaffe when they were banned from real aircraft used things like rubber bands and human towing to launch, and I can remember ground-based winches being used to launch RAF cadet planes when I was a kid.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @04:07PM (#32112199)
I'm not arguing that ground-launching gliders isn't possible.

I'm saying that having an airworthy craft once you're off the ground takes some doing, and it's probably easier to get there if you're experimenting with powered craft.

The early powered heavier-than-air craft were not especially aeronautically sound. But with the ability to perform design-build-test cycles, and not kill overly many pilots in the process, once engines existed design progressed rapidly.

Getting from the Wright Flyer to a modern sailplane would have been far more challenging without engines.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @04:34PM (#32112494)
Sailplane is basically more wing, isn't it? I don't see how that needs an engine in its past, but I could understand material constraints.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @04:59PM (#32112750)
Imagine you have no idea about aeronautics, controls, lift, thrust, where lift exists, how it works, etc., etc. You have no idea how to actually fly the thing.

Or land it.

So you build your best guess at what a working glider might be. You don't have robotics or radio to remotely control it, so someone's got to fly the thing.

You build a kite flinger and/or ramp or rail to toss it off the side of a building or cliff or whatever.

And then you hope, desperately, that you weren't too terribly mistaken about a great many things.

Franz Reichelt wasn't quite building airplanes, but he turned out to have misjudged his own competence in a somewhat similar manner:

https://allthatsinteresting.com/franz-reichelt

Now consider the same situation, except that you've at least got a motor to buy your way out of design and/or piloting errors, at least a little bit.

Under which of those scenarios do you think actual useful design might have progressed faster?

Keep in mind that people have had the notion of flying with wing-like contraptions dating to the ancient Greeks (see the legend of Icarus). There were numerous inventors who threw themselves off hills or cliffs with various attempts. Lack of power, and the frequent short professional career track of such inventors tended to stymie progress.

Successful gliders and sailplanes almost entirely postdated powered heavier-than-air flight. The first designs appeared after WWI, and practical use didn't appear until the 1930s. My understanding is that popularity of recreational gliding didn't emerge until the 1950s or 1960s, again benefiting from aeronautical engineering, materials, radios, much better knowledge of aircraft operation, controls, and instrumentation.

Glide ratio is one measure of aerodynamic efficiency and sophistication. Early 1930s gliders achieved about a 1:17 ratio. Most modern gliders exceed 1:30, and the best 1:50 or more. This expresses altitude loss per unit foreward travel (e.g., 1 meter loss for 30 meters forward flight).

Google's Ngram viewer is a somewhat fickle guide, but suggests an initial spike in mentions in the late 1930s / 1940s, again in the 1950s, then a third in the 1970s:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=sailplane&year...

Adding in "glider" (multiplied 10x) still lags "aeroplane" by decades.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%28sailplane%2...

There may have been earlier terminology used, and "glider" has other meanings which might confound matches, but at least for "sailplane", the trend line lags "aeroplane" and "airplane" considerably. (I've multiplied "sailplane" results 100x in this plot):

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%28sailplane%2...

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by kevin_thibedeau on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:21AM (#32106611)
Paper airplanes were around for centuries. Nobody knew how they worked.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:32AM (#32106676)
Nobody knew how penecilin worked when it was first discovered (we now know it inhibits the growth of the bacterial cell wall) but that did not stop people using it, to good effect. Similar for many other discoveries/inventions.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:49AM (#32106797)
More generally: technology (engineering) delivers results. Understanding why it does so is not required, and often comes quite late.

If you want explanation, that's a role of science, though it's often preceded by a very long period of systematic observation.

One striking example is geology, which has existed since at least the 17th century, but which didn't formally adopt its central organising and explanatory principle, of plate tectonics, until 1965. Biology (evolution and DNA), physics (celestial mechanics, particle physics, reletivity, and quantum theory), and chemistry (periodic table and electron orbitals) also come to mind.

Thermodynamics arose out of work with steam engines, and eventually developed to the point that the theoretical understanding and equations began driving, rather than being driven by, engineering accomplishments. Electrical engineering is another example where modern developments required understanding of, and calculations based on, circuit and field theory, rather than just more lab experimentation. (I'm hazy on details here, though this is my general understanding.)

There are practices which existed for many thousands of years before a deep understanding was achieved: fermentation, fire, firing ceramics, glassmaking, smelting metals, and many agricultural practices. Doing and understanding are separate undertakings.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by jacquesm on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:37AM (#32107451)
Chemistry has only lately really become tractable, now that we can simulate appreciable quantities of matter in a computer and our simulations have become accurate enough to for instance reliably predict how certain molecules will orient themselves spatially (including folding).
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by tialaramex on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:35AM (#32107437)
However, this blundering about approach only works if almost anything could have worked and so you just keep trying until you hit upon it.

You can discover that eating one of the dozen types of plants growing on the hillside nearby treats toothache without any overarching theory about how that could work, just try eating stuff and see what happens - but you aren't going to invent the LED lamp this way.

Example: When we put a cable on the bottom of the ocean these days it's optical fibre rather than electrical. But, even with optical fibre, even the best stuff we can make, this will need amplifying for long distances or it's pretty awful. One thing you could do would be to choose reconstructing amplifiers when making the cable. So e.g. you decide this cable is Protocol X at 100Gb/s, you make amplifiers which can reconstruct a Protocol X signal at 100Gb/s and "boost" it, splice those in along the distance of the cable, and drop the whole lot into the ocean. However, somebody is going to invent 500Gb/s Protocol X+ and if you want to upgrade you will need to send teams down to the ocean floor to replace those amplifiers. Ouch.

In principle individual photons are travelling along the fibre, and physics doesn't say we can't just have one photon in => two photons out to boost this without needing to reconstruct the signal at all. There should be some way to build a device which does this, an Optical Amplifier, and it would be OK if this is quite expensive since it's saving you that enormous expense by allowing you to upgrade to 500 Gb/s X+ or to 10Tb/s XXX or whatever other future protocols just involve sending photons down a fibre without trying to upgrade equipment at the bottom of the ocean. But... how?

Turns out scientists can guess exactly how that should work if it's possible, and then direct the experiments, trying out only the handful of things which actually might work instead of just groping about at random. My alma mater was one of the places figuring out how to do this in the 1980s, they were still really proud of that when I studied there a decade later. Erbium Doped Fibre Amplifiers are the result.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @02:19PM (#32111221)
I think that your fundamental premise is wrong: there've been a large number of ancient / preindustrial inventions which were not obvious, which were terrifically surprising, or which required a tremendous amount of skill or craft to accomplish. It'd be interesting to come up with a catalogue of these....

Your transoceanic cable example is an interesting one, as the first electrical / telegraph cables greatly expanded the understanding of electric fields and interactions with the environment, especially in salt-water.

I'm also wondering if there's some sort of frontier between the "just blundering around" approach --- mass parallel experimentation --- and "requires a substantive theoretical understanding". To take your LED example, LEDs are the inverse of the photoelectric effect (and apparent PV panels will emit photons when a charge is applied to them). Electroluminescence dates to 1907, whilst the first LEDs were developed in the 1960s. There were earlier similar phenomena such as chemoluminescence (including numerous examples of bioluminescence) which might have suggested the possibility.

I'm agreeing in part, disagreeing in part, and wondering if there might be a more robust or systematic way of distinguishing limits of both methods.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by tialaramex on Friday July 15, 2022 @04:04PM (#32112171)
Yeah, something more systematic would be good.

Sometimes it's surprising what nobody was interested in inventing. I think Grace Hopper is really important because people were resistant to the idea that programming the computer involved boring mindless steps which could be done by a machine and so of course instead of hand writing the program in machine code you should write a higher level language and have the machine translate that. It's incredible now, but this very idea was once an important invention and yet her superiors were not enthusiastic.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @04:11PM (#32112237)
There's an inherent resistance to change, even where it provides improvement.

Bernhard J. Stein's *Resistances to the Adoption of Technological Innovations" (1937) is a fascinating read in this regard:

https://archive.org/details/technologicaltre1937unitrich/pag...

As Markdown: https://rentry.co/szi3g

I'd heard of it via Isaac Asimov who mentions it in his biography and a few other contexts. Asimov was Stern's research assistant, and incorporated the ideas into several of his own stories.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by jacquesm on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:38AM (#32107467)
It's not that simple. Lots of things that are discovered are discovered when the goal was something else entirely. The number of accidental inventions is very large and it isn't rare at all that the accidental invention (or, more appropriately named, accidental discovery) is of much more value to society than the original goal was.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by bravura on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:47AM (#32107115)
Also, a lot of empirical progress in ML didn't happen until people stopped worrying about explainability and theoretical guarantees. Remember when NNs were unfashionable?
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @02:35PM (#32111371)
Self-imposed unnecessary limitations are a frequent inhibitor of technical progress.

Though I've had my concerns for what the growth in solution-without-explanation (or understanding) that ML is generating.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by NateEag on Friday July 15, 2022 @04:09PM (#32112224)
my impression is that mostly NNs made progress when compute got really cheap.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by f0e4c2f7 on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:27AM (#32106652)
This is really interesting and I had never considered it before. Would you happen to know any books or articles that tell the history leading up to the wright brothers but focusing on those kind of questions and theories?
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by morelisp on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:37AM (#32106714)
Although the mathematics is quite complex (Newton, Bernoulli, Navier-Stokes) the history happens fairly quickly as the mathematics appears. Bernoulli published in 1738, Cayley designed the fixed-wing aircraft in 1799. From that point it was mostly a matter of finding ways to increase thrust / reduce weight through better engine design to achieve useful flight time / lift.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by Koshkin on Friday July 15, 2022 @05:05PM (#32112810)
But the gliding (of larger birds) was observed for millennia. I think people had a pretty good idea about the possibility.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by morelisp on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:20AM (#32106601)
Kites are prehistorical. You can't really get earlier than that, unless we find some pre-human primates making them.

(parent edited)

> Then, why not make it bigger?

To what end? They were lifting bombs on kites as early as the 7th century, as well as humans as novelties (and punishments - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Huangtou).

If you want a lift a human to do something, you also need some better steering and safe landing, and those require more reliable engineering besides just the basic lift possibility.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:28AM (#32106654)
Kind of supports my question - if tethered kites, why not untethered ones (i.e. aircraft)? And man-lifting kites have, of course been a thing for ages.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by morelisp on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:30AM (#32106663)
Reliable steering requires aerodynamics requires quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering. And it's extremely dangerous, a lot of people did die trying to make steerable kites.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:34AM (#32106702)
> quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering

Not sure the Wright brothers would be with you on this - neither were maths guys and their aircraft were hardly precision-built.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dredmorbius on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:13AM (#32106933)
The Wrights did extensive experimentation, on both models an full-sized prototypes. They built the first wind tunnel and developed calculations for lift and propeller thrust.

They also practiced fairly rapid design iteration, trying out ideas and adapting to actual experience. What they arrived at worked, though it was far from ideal and doesn't much resemble modern aircraft (beyond the notion of wings and the rough principles of control surfaces). Once other designers / engineers entered the field, and with more reliable engines, further iteration advanced rapidly.

Military aircraft played a significant role in WWI, only a decade after the Wright's first powered flight.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by slightknack on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:29AM (#32107018)
> He identified the four forces which act on a heavier-than-air flying vehicle: weight, lift, drag and thrust. [...] He also designed the first glider reliably reported to carry a human aloft. He correctly predicted that sustained flight would not occur until a lightweight engine was developed to provide adequate thrust and lift. The Wright brothers acknowledged his importance to the development of aviation.

— https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cayley

I think by the time the Wright brothers came around, the general theory for powered flight was in place. The Wright Flyer was precision engineered, compared to most 'kites' that came before it. It's not every day you see an internal combustion engine on a kite.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by notahacker on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:55AM (#32108241)
> It's not every day you see an internal combustion engine on a kite.

Yup. The engine was more important than the understanding of the principles of propulsion too: even if the four forces had been identified by Aristotle, that wouldn't have been much use in achieving sustained powered flight to civilisations whose closest approximation of a propellor powered by a turbine engine was a waterwheel.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by morelisp on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:40AM (#32106733)
And what, there's nobody between Archimedes and the Wright Brothers I could have been referring to? Whatever...
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by pbhjpbhj on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:14AM (#32107823)
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by antonhowes on Friday July 15, 2022 @01:11PM (#32110405)
Fantastic question, which is some way down on my to-do list after the steam engine. The discussion this prompted is a real goldmine, so thank you.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by pirate787 on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:56AM (#32106836)
In European culture, there's the myth of Icarus, whose wings failed in flight. I wonder if there's a real-life basis for this tradition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarus

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by random314 on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:37AM (#32107060)
Michael faraday invented the motor in the 1820s. Successive refinements to the motor and the gas engine and electricity distribution projects led to electrification, the motor car and the powered airplane as an immediate consequence.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by Jensson on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:25AM (#32106632)
They lacked the physics theory to make planes stable enough to carry a load, and nobody wants to experiment throwing themselves out over a cliff with prototype wings that will likely get them killed.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by zabzonk on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:36AM (#32106713)
> nobody wants to experiment throwing themselves out over a cliff with prototype wings that will likely get them killed.

Actually, not a few people did exactly that! If they had used a scaled-up paper plane, they might have lived. Or think of a modern hang-glider, but made from bamboo and silk.

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by magpi3 on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:28AM (#32107011)
He wasn't testing wings, but you make me think of this poor, brave man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Reichelt#Eiffel_Tower_ju...

Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by dham on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:57AM (#32107178)
You didn't need to throw yourself off a cliff though. Just think of something like Jockey's Ridge.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by saalweachter on Friday July 15, 2022 @05:19PM (#32112926)
I mean, an improvement, but that just means that you'll be killed when your wings half work (enough to lift you into the air high enough that the fall will kill you) rather than when your wings don't work at all.
Re:Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II by GistNoesis on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:47AM (#32107119)
The boomerang is quite old.