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Re:Cool desktops don’t change by PaulHoule on Thursday June 16, 2022 @03:17PM (#31769827)
It's a running annoyance of Windows that they are always making small changes to the UI that don't really come across as an improvement or a deterioration but that force you to relearn things.

It really drove me crazy when I went from being a linux partisan for being responsible for quite a few different Windows machines and on a given day I could be working with anything from Win 98 to Win ME to Win NT to various editions of Win 2000 and XP and if you had to find something in the UI it would be slightly different in all of those which was a cognitive load. Contrast to to Linux where I did it all on the command line and it stayed the same in that time frame.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by hyperman1 on Thursday June 16, 2022 @03:46PM (#31770097)
The trick on windows is pressing win+r, opening the run dialog. One keycombo works in all windows versions. It takes a real command or exe, not some simplified shell abomination. After learning a few .msc filenames, you can quickly get around the old advanced config screens. Most common tools havent changed their names since win95, e.g cmd winword excel calc. In fact, I paste and recut one liners in it to strip them from their formatting.

Compare that with the start menu. I type something, and the chosen program changes every time. I type notepad++, it shows the correct program until I type the d, then decides I really want to open edge and search notepad++ on bing. Or it launches an uninstaller instead of the actual program.

Now one of these days ms is going to optimize the win+r experience, so have fun while it lasts.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by li2uR3ce on Friday June 17, 2022 @08:13AM (#31776958)
> Most common tools havent changed their names since win95

The trick is to rely on decades of acquired arcane knowledge about .exe filenames. What a great UI!

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by Timpy on Friday June 17, 2022 @08:29AM (#31777108)
>The trick is to rely on decades of acquired arcane knowledge

I hate windows as much as the next person, but to be fair that's kind of how command-line life works on Linux too isn't it?

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by dfxm12 on Thursday June 16, 2022 @04:00PM (#31770262)
haha, I did a brief presentation talking about this exact keyboard shortcut (among others) and why it was so useful for Windows admins back in my college or high school computer club. The feedback I got was the presentation was dry, but useful, but that's keyboard shortcuts for you... :D
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by AceJohnny2 on Thursday June 16, 2022 @05:19PM (#31771109)
I am reminded of a study where the hue of lights in a factory was changed, and the workers were reported happier and more productive. Then they changed it again (actually, to the original hue), and the workers reported being happier still and more productive!

So what lighting hue was best? Irrelevant, the important thing was that workers perceived that management was paying attention to their wellbeing.

I think something similar is happening in Windows (and Mac!) desktops, where they change small things "for productivity", and the majority of people will think it's an improvement, just because it's different.

Bt a small subset of us opinionated people will be upset that our carefully tuned habits are disrupted.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by hbn on Thursday June 16, 2022 @05:38PM (#31771308)
> they change small things "for productivity", and the majority of people will think it's an improvement

I feel like I've never talked to a person, techie or not, who didn't agree it was incredibly annoying to have UIs that they're used to change out under their feet.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by makeitdouble on Thursday June 16, 2022 @08:49PM (#31772806)
I think it's why in the anecdote they change lighting hues, and not for instance swap the machines, or move around the work areas for no reasons.

In IT parlance, I guess lighting hues would be equivalent to the changing the window manager theme for a lighter/darker one ?

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by iLoveOncall on Thursday June 16, 2022 @05:49PM (#31771413)
I usually don't mind at all, it's a non-issue. Losing features suck, but a new UI, especially for tools that were legitimately dated, is something I like.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by BLKNSLVR on Thursday June 16, 2022 @06:18PM (#31771713)
How would you define "legitimately dated"?

I'd say something like the "ribbon toolbar" upgrade of MS Office, which I think improved accessibility of functions, is one of the only examples I can think of. But then I'm not sure if that was just a case of getting used to the new layout.

Windows "Settings" versus the Control Panel is a counter example. It was a downgrade, it still sucks now, years later, but the Control Panel could be argued as 'dated' by some definitions.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by HKH2 on Thursday June 16, 2022 @08:52PM (#31772834)
> I'd say something like the "ribbon toolbar" upgrade of MS Office, which I think improved accessibility of functions, is one of the only examples I can think of.

I don't think it improves accessibility when I keep having to go hunting in different sections for the right button. (The ribbon in the Recycle Bin makes no sense to me either.)

I'll admit it can be daunting for a new user to see a lot of buttons, but if there is a tooltip or even a tutorial for each button showing where it can be useful, that shouldn't be much of a problem.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by lproven on Friday June 17, 2022 @06:38AM (#31776302)
Genuinely astonished

For me, the Ribbon is what made Office unusable. I've used MS apps since the MS-DOS and Xenix days. I remember the old MS menus (2 lines, bottom of screen, summoned with Esc) to CUA transition, then the horror of WinWord 1, then the passable WinWord 2, then the actually quite nice WinWord 6.

I still run Word 97 on Ubuntu under WINE. Works perfectly.

But after Office 2007, it is totally unusable for me.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by BLKNSLVR on Sunday June 19, 2022 @11:22PM (#31805968)
Hehe, It did take a long time to get used to it, by necessity of "where I work upgraded, so no choice but to work with it". So, now it's second nature, and in my brief interludes with LibreOffice I struggle with the layout style and finding where things are.

I did say "But then I'm not sure if that was just a case of getting used to the new layout" - still open to that being the case.

Maybe it's like 12th edition text books, change for the sake of change. In the case of Office software, we need people to keep needing the 'basic' and 'intermediate' training sessions; we need credentials to justifiably decay with time?

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by bombcar on Thursday June 16, 2022 @08:02PM (#31772475)
The ribbon can be nice but I love that on macOS we still get the menu items. So much easier to find things.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by iLoveOncall on Thursday June 16, 2022 @06:58PM (#31772052)
I'm not saying every UI update will be good, just that in a huge amount of cases, updates that actually do improve the UI will be placed in the same bucket as bad updates, just because "muh me no like change".
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by mixmastamyk on Thursday June 16, 2022 @06:19PM (#31771721)
“dated” is not the issue, rather does it continue to be fit for purpose?
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by Zababa on Thursday June 16, 2022 @05:45PM (#31771374)
> I am reminded of a study where the hue of lights in a factory was changed, and the workers were reported happier and more productive. Then they changed it again (actually, to the original hue), and the workers reported being happier still and more productive!

> So what lighting hue was best? Irrelevant, the important thing was that workers perceived that management was paying attention to their wellbeing.

I doubt it would work if they changed the place of tools, the layout of the factory, stuff like that.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by bombcar on Thursday June 16, 2022 @08:03PM (#31772482)
Or the workers know to mark “yes I am happier” on the surveys lest they get remaindered out.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by weikju on Thursday June 16, 2022 @07:44PM (#31772349)
Related, you just have to spend some time on various tech sites/forums to see that people will complain when something changes in an OS release, but even more so people will complain when the UI does NOT change "there's nothing new, boring" to paraphrase that whole second category... Not the same exact individuals of course, but there are loud voices clamoring for changes for change's sake (even if they don't know they are doing that).
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by IfOnlyYouKnew on Thursday June 16, 2022 @05:34PM (#31771260)
It's possible to recognize that mechanism and not mind being affected by it. There is nothing wrong with experiencing joy based on 'just' cosmetic changes. Indeed it's a direct effect of what's called 'novelty-seeking' behavior, a character trait associated with lots of positive things for the person and society, and only a few drug habits and untimely deaths in non-FAA-approved aircraft.

Many of the possibly meaningless desktop changes are also meaningless in the sense that they won't affect any workflow, and are therefore benign.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by agumonkey on Thursday June 16, 2022 @03:43PM (#31770069)
Surprisingly I find linux quite guilty of the neverending gui papercut too (it's a bazaar after all).

Sadly Microsoft is kinda forced to follow the trends, everything moves in all direction (web, phones).

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by VyseofArcadia on Thursday June 16, 2022 @04:19PM (#31770499)
> Sadly Microsoft is kinda forced to follow the trends, everything moves in all direction (web, phones).

Former Microsoftie here. While they are following trends, the actual impetus behind all the little changes you see all the time is that managers and ICs are incentivized to make "impactful" changes if they want good performance reviews. UI changes are a pretty easy way to have "impact". You can say something in your review like, "and X million users used the new taskbar that's in the middle of the screen".

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by indrora on Thursday June 16, 2022 @04:50PM (#31770813)
This fucking reeks of Pressure to Publish in academia.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by enriquto on Thursday June 16, 2022 @05:20PM (#31771114)
Except that publishing stupid papers does not harm millions of users, but yes.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by paraph1n on Thursday June 16, 2022 @07:09PM (#31772123)
It harms thousands of researchers who read them and base their further research upon.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by pgcj_poster on Thursday June 16, 2022 @09:20PM (#31773011)
The average paper only gets one citation.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by ibz on Friday June 17, 2022 @04:13PM (#31783649)
If the average type of paper deviates over time, it doesn't matter whether the average number of citations is low - the type (direction) of research that gets cited shifts as well, and ultimately the direction of all research done shifts.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by agumonkey on Thursday June 16, 2022 @11:59PM (#31773976)
I don't understand how this scheme (in companies or academia) manages to emerge and sustain everywhere.. surely there's an answer but I don't know it.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by VyseofArcadia on Friday June 17, 2022 @10:17AM (#31778562)
I think the long and short of it is that systematically incentivizing anything is hard.

When organizations are small, you have the resources to evaluate performance on a case by case basis because everyone works with everyone else to some degree. When organizations grow and you have layers of bureaucracy, inevitably some asshole middle manager gives someone a bad review for a bullshit reason (jealousy, racism, dislike, etc).

That's when HR swoops in and starts making processes and standards for everything to shield the company from lawsuits. Crucially, these processes and standards don't necessarily prevent the problem, but just let the company's lawyers argue that they tried to prevent the problem.

Now that you have processes and standards for everything, employees start gaming the system. The goal is no longer "do the thing that makes the company succeed". The company is so big that relatively few individuals have the power to swing the company's fortunes one way or the other. Instead, the goal is now "maximize my career growth".

Then you end up in the nonsense FAANGM situation where individual little teams are putting out crap and making decisions that make the company look dumb. Things that would be easy to ignore if a significant fraction of teams weren't doing it. All because they're doing things that maximize their "impact".

This is hard to correct because you don't want to be too harsh with your teams and hurt morale, and it's not like it's every team. So you try to be flexible, be tolerant of missteps as long as people show improvement, because if you just fired everybody who made boneheaded decisions in the name of "impact", the hit to moral would cause terrible attrition problems. And worse, some of them would sue the company, which was the problem you were trying to avoid in the first place.

s/company/university/g as needed.

It's one of those classic situations where every individual step in the process does at least kind of make sense, but the end result is bonkers.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by toast0 on Friday June 17, 2022 @12:21AM (#31774092)
That's the problem with "impact", they're not asking for "positive impact", and they're not getting it.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by eikenberry on Thursday June 16, 2022 @08:55PM (#31772857)
You have your choice with Linux where you don't get a choice with proprietary OSes. If you build your desktop from parts you get to keep it as long as you like. I used the same desktop, mostly unchanged for 15 years on Linux without problem. It was basic, Openbox, gkrellm (later conky), xbindkeys, etc. Never had to worry about it changing as Openbox was basically done and the other parts were mostly done as well. Only had to mess with it when I wanted to.

Linux (and FLOSS in general) gives you the choice to have it the way you want it.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by lmm on Friday June 17, 2022 @02:04AM (#31774595)
Not in these days of systemd and tight integration between everything. Want to fork your window manager? Well you'd better keep it up to date with the graphics server, which needs to stay up to date with the device manager, which needs to stay up to date with the kernel, which needs to stay up to date with... you've pretty much got to either fork the whole OS or live with whatever the big contributors are doing.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by eikenberry on Saturday June 18, 2022 @03:45PM (#31793116)
Systemd is actually a great tool for building your own desktop. It's user services/units are perfect for long running user process. I use it extensively for my Openbox setup. Running compton, conky, redshift, xbindkeys, urxvtd daemon, setting the wallpaper, running the screenlock program, and my calendar reminder all as systemd services.

The only thing really changing right now is Wayland and the switch from window manager to compositors and the related support software. There are getting to be a decent amount of options in that regard with a good crop of lightweight compositors and tools starting to mature.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by agumonkey on Friday June 17, 2022 @12:06AM (#31774012)
is it true ? if XFCE decides to do things I don't like I may not be able to manage a fork
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by eikenberry on Saturday June 18, 2022 @03:39PM (#31793069)
XFCE is a integrated desktop. You are choosing the desktop and what comes with it, including how the developers decide to change it. If you want control start with a window manager or a window manager like compositor for wayland and build your desktop from there. There are non-desktop versions of pretty much everything you need (notification daemons, keybinding, etc.).
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by bb010g on Friday June 17, 2022 @04:16PM (#31783699)
https://www.trinitydesktop.org/ is an example of the community maintaining a continuation of KDE 3.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by prmoustache on Friday June 17, 2022 @03:00AM (#31774950)
It only depends on motivation and time dedication. Anyone can be a developer.

Also if you go past the 3 main desktops there are many many window managers, standalone launchers, panels from which you can pick up the pieces you want to build something you like.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by PaulHoule on Thursday June 16, 2022 @03:54PM (#31770202)
The first thing I do with a Linux install is uninstall X windows.

I remember being excited when I saw the first beta test of KDE but it seemed each version got a little bit worse after that and that's been the trajectory of the Linux desktop since 1995 or so.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by agumonkey on Thursday June 16, 2022 @04:04PM (#31770311)
I don't mind X, but I push i3 or xfce and nothing more. I tried bare console linux but there were too many keyboard mapping fu and a few web browsing facility I didn't bother to lose.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by emptysongglass on Thursday June 16, 2022 @04:19PM (#31770495)
How do you surf the web or use GUI programs?
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by PaulHoule on Thursday June 16, 2022 @04:47PM (#31770785)
I don't. I surf the web and use GUI programs on Windows or Mac OS. I have a Linux server that runs Jellyfin and my IoT devices.

awk, grep, tail, nginx and all that kind of stuff is fine.

(I tried taking the 1050 card from my media server I used for AI training long ago and put it in another cheap Linux box and put SteamOS on it. They claim it can run Windows games but it won't run anything out of my steam account including the games that the proton database claims works. That's the kind of brokenness as the expected condition that is endemic to the Linux GUI)

If I found a GUI app worked on Linux I'd be so surprised I'd have to file a feature report with their feature tracker.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by deadbunny on Thursday June 16, 2022 @05:14PM (#31771053)
No offense intended but it sounds like you don't know what you're doing.

Xorg has worked for decades, a multitude of window managers and desktop environments have been perfectly usable for decades, and a couple of million people (going by Steam HW survey results) seem to be able to run games via proton perfectly fine.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by medeshago on Thursday June 16, 2022 @05:46PM (#31771383)
Do you realize that even if the marketshare for desktop linux is minimal, let's assume 0.5%, those are still millions of computers working using what you claim doesn't work under any condition?
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by rawoke083600 on Friday June 17, 2022 @03:52AM (#31775311)
Good take ! Reminds me of that saying. "If one person tells you, you have tail ignore it, if many ppl tell you, you have a tail... look behind you" :P
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by vinceguidry on Thursday June 16, 2022 @08:09PM (#31772529)
Did you enable Proton in Steam? It's not turned on by default, though I believe that at this point they probably should. It's handled everything I've wanted to run on it.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by philliphaydon on Thursday June 16, 2022 @11:36PM (#31773853)
Yeah, by default Steam only runs games that are made for Linux, you need to enable Proton to open up support for Windows games and use the ProtonDB to figure out the overall support for those games. Alot work flawlessly, some have known issues, and some flatout wont work, usually because of some anti-cheat software.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by Nursie on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:03AM (#31774303)
I think at this stage in the game, if you can't use a linux desktop but consider yourself to be 'in tech' in any way, the problem is probably you.

Doesn't mean you have to think it's perfect, doesn't mean you have to use it for everything, but 'can't use any GUI app on linux' is definitely a you problem.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by rawoke083600 on Friday June 17, 2022 @03:50AM (#31775297)
Asking for a friend: "Is text-p0rn a thing ?"
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by Casteil on Thursday June 16, 2022 @04:05PM (#31770323)
Windows 11 had me feeling this quite a bit, particularly with settings and volume/network management.

They attempted to make the new Settings panel the 'HQ' for everything, but in the process really buried some things (for technical people) under numerous additional clicks/sub-menus, if it's even there at all anymore. I think they've been addressing the concerns with new updates, but I still find myself floundering sometimes.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by hbn on Thursday June 16, 2022 @05:31PM (#31771232)
There's a bunch of UI/UX regressions in Windows 11. Examples off the top of my head:

- After waking my computer from sleep, my last active window is not active any more. In fact, no window is active. I have to hit alt+tab to grab focus of the window again, or click the window (this probably wasn't caught because most people use their mouse for everything)

- There's new animations for the basic native Windows menus, including the Win+X menu I use for sleeping my computer, shutting down, etc. When you navigate to a sub-menu with the arrow keys, you have to wait for the animation of the sub-menu sliding out before you can interact with it. I've had to slow down my muscle memory to sleep my computer because otherwise I'll hit random other menu items cause the child menu didn't slide out fast enough to keep up with my inputs.

- I usually snap windows around with the Win+arrow keys shortcuts, but they added a new snap layout where sometimes when I do Win+up it brings the window to the top half of the screen. But that's also how you maximize a window, so I don't know how it decides which one it will do. In my experience it seems to be related to your key input speed.

- Sometimes I'll crop and resize images in Paint. They redid a bunch of the UI in Windows 11, and now when I use the resize menu, I can't hit enter to confirm the size I input. Again, seemingly this UI was only tested by people who use the mouse for everything.

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by database64128 on Thursday June 16, 2022 @10:34PM (#31773537)
Just tried Win+X on Build 22621. Arrow keys and letters work right away. I didn't have to wait or slow down.
Re:Cool desktops don’t change by keithnz on Thursday June 16, 2022 @08:44PM (#31772778)
one of the best things you can install is windows power toys, and PowerToys Run becomes your work horse to get to everything really easily. web search, calculator, file search, programs, services, find settings, find open windows, timezones, unit conversion, launch things as admin, etc

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/run and check the search commands / hotkeys

My start menu / win-r days / open a shell to execute some commands are pretty much all over now and I just use PowerToy Run

Re:Cool desktops don’t change by matsemann on Friday June 17, 2022 @03:48AM (#31775282)
I actually reformatted my computer so that I could downgrade to W10, only because of the missing feature of being able to choose "never combine" on the taskbar. Why make a new taskbar and then make it worse?

Even after using W11 for a few months ("I will get used to it"), I still noticed everyday how I felt less productive and annoyed having to hover over the icon and try to find the correct window, vs just having them all laid out in the taskbar.