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Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by pyuser583 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:27AM (#31578076)
I’m probably in the minority, but I’m not thrilled with perpetual remote work.

I wouldn’t be where I am if remote work was the norm, and I worry about my ability to advance.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by artdigital on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:43AM (#31578173)
Same. I am just not good with remote work. Slack (our org is massive) and staying up to date with so many things async is stressing, and I honestly miss having my coworkers around. As a single 20s guy, I had fun in the office and was able to create strong connections with my team.

Now everything is just boring, dull and disconnected. I feel like a worker drone just going from task to task, trying to balance slack in the mix to not get left behind. There are other people in the company or my team, but I don't connect with them. They could equally be NPCs.

Same as you, I am also very worried about not being able to advance in my career any further if things continue the way they do

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by voidr on Thursday June 02, 2022 @03:52AM (#31592497)
The company you work for is not your family, you are just an NPC to them, they will get rid of you in a heartbeat as soon as it suits their interest, because the single purpose of a company is to make money, everything else is bullshit, you work for the company to make money as well, as soon as they would stop paying you, you would stop working.

You should build your life outside of any company:

- mixing friendship with work rarely ends well, you might end up competing with your best friend for the same promotion, he might not even be your best friend, just making you think that he is

- dating in the workplace is a minefield, you can easily get into trouble

Don't be attached to a company, you can find another role in seconds.

You don't need to keep up with everything in the company, you just need to be good at what you are doing.

You don't need to be promoted at the company, you just need to improve your skills, it might be easier to leave and join another company, or even rejoin the same one in a more senior role than to go through the promotion process.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by magicroot75 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @01:10PM (#31597656)
I see this sentiment often on HN, but I think it's too reductive. For better or worse, we don't just work for a "company". We work with a group of other real whole humans. And if I'm going to spend 8hrs a day with these folks, I expect our relationships to be on a deeper level than "NPC." I don't think we should be "family." But NPC is way too impersonal for me.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by notfromhere on Thursday June 02, 2022 @05:13PM (#31600575)
The company is an abstraction layer that allows for very convenience-based relationships.

The point is that at a company you are a line item in the budget and you will be forced out the moment it’s not financially beneficial to keep you around.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by Aeolun on Saturday June 04, 2022 @07:17AM (#31619063)
Everyone else is an NPC by definition.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by ytpete on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:36AM (#31604648)
> mixing friendship with work rarely ends well

That generalization definitely doesn't hold for everyone. I've made so many great and lasting friendships from work over the years - even picked up some new hobbies and gone on trips together. If I'd come in with the attitude that it's a bad idea to make friends or socialize with coworkers, I would have missed out on a whole lot of life-enriching experiences.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by tomduncalf on Friday June 03, 2022 @07:58AM (#31607113)
> mixing friendship with work rarely ends well

This sentiment confuses me. Maybe it depends on the kind of company you work at, or maybe it's a cultural thing (I'm in the UK), but I've met many of my best friends through work, as have most people I know. It seems like one of the main ways to make new friends as an adult, and to be honest I've never experienced any downsides to it.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by salt-thrower on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:18AM (#31578405)
Same here. I have felt completely left behind and burnt out by the WFH shift. I simply don’t care enough to hustle and grind from home to achieve career advancement. Networking has to happen naturally in-person for me; everything on Zoom feels forced and fake.

I truly believe a hybrid schedule is best. 5 days per week in the office is overkill, but 2-3 days a week would help me tremendously. I’m gearing my career towards finding that balance now.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by a_square_peg on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @08:57AM (#31581142)
Ditto. Working remotely makes even a simple communication into another ordeal and a quick chat into a meeting scheduled for next week etc. I feel like much more energy and resource is spent just on communication when working from home, both at the personal level and for the organization.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by tkiolp4 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @04:45PM (#31587834)
You can go back to the office… but what if your teammates don’t? You’ll be in the same situation.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by paulcole on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @05:26PM (#31588361)
They go and get a job where everyone is in the office (and ideally everyone wants to be in the office).

My order of preference is:

• Everyone in-office because they want to be there

• Everyone in-office and some want to be there

• Everyone in-office and most don't want to be there

• Hybrid where everyone picks what works best for them

• 100% remote

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by skinnymuch on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:57AM (#31608361)
Why is your 3rd order of preference something where most are unhappy? Are you saying your happiness is preferable over the unhappiness of most others or am I misunderstanding
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by paulcole on Friday June 03, 2022 @07:18PM (#31614988)
Because I think in that situation the people who are unhappy either quit or get fired. Plus that was generally the default pre-COVID and people dealt with it more or less OK.

And yes, where I choose to work I do value my happiness more than the happiness of others.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by skinnymuch on Sunday June 05, 2022 @07:22PM (#31635759)
Ah okay. That makes sense. That was my only wondering. We are in a post pandemic world now. So the pre Covid default isn’t the same any more. But yeah I agree overall
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by nhangen on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:38AM (#31578528)
Never thought I would agree, but recently started a new job in a fully remote company. I was super excited. I thought it would be a dream.

Instead, I have found that it's basically impossible to stand out in the ways I have in the past, via charisma, camaraderie, being inquisitive, etc. Remote work has basically devolved aptitude into a series of scores & metrics. It feels like working at an Amazon factory. Slack is a nightmare to keep up with.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by paxys on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @03:06AM (#31578996)
On the other hand remote work is a godsend for people who do most of the work on the team but get skipped over for promotions because they lack "charisma" and don't participate in gossip/politics and don't spend hours after work every day at the bar with coworkers.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by nokya on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:21AM (#31579968)
Very indeed.

My hypothesis is that the shift to more WFH has not reduced opportunities for advancement at all but has drastically shifted from one population, who knew how to maximize output from office interactions, to a population that knows how to maximize output from more virtual settings.

People who shine at the coffee machine, at business lunches, who are good at putting pressure on employees who arrive late at their desk, or know how to look efficient in front of a superior during in-presence meetings are completely clueless in how to operate virtual teams efficiently today. There are two possible responses to this: adapt or fight for the mythical "return to normal".

I am actually quite happy that this shift occurred at my company. New managers we didn't expect to be in 2019 have risen from nowhere amongst our ranks and are driving their teams surprisingly well. They are showing great initiative in establishing new processes and finding tools to support their operations, their team morale is generally good, I sincerely believe they are making us better in the long term.

Other managers, mostly late boomers I have to say it, are taking a huge hit to morale. We regularly receive complaints that we don't allow firing employees just because they don't want to come to the office. I actually had a senior manager telling me to f.off because I told him "you are a leader, it's your job to motivate her to come work with you at the office, not ours." I have recommended letting him go since...

One thing is for sure: moving to virtual settings, even partially, is requiring new management skills. I am still thinking this over but I believe managers' self-esteem plays a big role in the transition to virtual settings: many old school managers tend to assume they are successfully managing as long as they can see their employees physically at work during office hours. Whoever comes earlier and stays later is automatically ranked a better employee, even assured promotion, and whoever comes to the office for a meeting is immediately perceived as a better employee than those who joined online. Many managers who don't feel they have physical power over their teams anymore are struggling to regain control.

This approach doesn't work anymore in office settings, especially with qualified workforce. With WFH, there are people who start later, who disconnect earlier, who come back online after dinner, during weekends, who go on long lunches during work days or interrupt their morning for a 9.30am-10.30am workout. From what I see in our books, this doesn't affect our numbers negatively but stresses the hell out some of our managers. I am seeing a lot more flexibility in my employees than in my managers, which is somehow ironic!

To conclude my point, I think the issue with adopting a more remote/hybrid approach in the company stems from a lack of self-confidence amongst entry-level and middle-level managers in their ability to use "modern" tools to both interact more efficiently with their teams and to acquire the data they need.

Any manager who still struggles to share me his or her screen during a virtual session and can't refrain from complaining orally that "these tools suck" in 2022 has become a red flag to me.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by urthor on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @08:27PM (#31589878)
What you've said about old school managers is actually very wise and rings true.

That old school mentality of "promote the person who sits down the earliest" actually has a lot of truth behind it.

Is it necessarily rigorously fair, equitable, management style? Is it accepting of working parents with a school run? Hell no.

But... I can definitely say, I can see it working.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by asd88 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:35PM (#31585279)
I agree with all your points. However, Google Meet screen sharing regularly stops working on Chrome for Mac, so some widely used tools do suck in 2022.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by nokya on Monday June 13, 2022 @11:24AM (#31726894)
Indeed, fully agree with you, there are collaboration tools that are and will likely remain untrustworthy under particular settings.

I like to think that some "collective intelligence" emerges in all organizations where users progressively become aware that some tools do not cope well with others. I have heard about these screen sharing issues with Chrome on Mac, but I expect from my managers that they switch to more stable "combinations" after a few weeks max, and stop complaining after two years.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by owaislone on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:44AM (#31578562)
I totally get you and have experienced this at my current and previous job but I had totally opposite experiences at three jobs before that. It highly depends on the culture. Going remote first is not simply allowing remote work and calling it a day. It takes a lot of time and effort to cultivate a good "remote culture".
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by Valakas_ on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:56PM (#31585574)
So basically you stood out not because of the work you did but because of social skills. Gotcha. Yet another reason why WFH is better. Rewards people who actually stand out due to quality of work and not unrelated unproductive skills that affect human psyche and make it seem like the person is contributing more than they are.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by paulcole on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @05:27PM (#31588376)
Having good social skills is a big part of many people's jobs.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by tkiolp4 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @04:47PM (#31587860)
That’s a godsend for me. I just really want to do my job and call it a day. No more no less. I’m a mercenary.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by ARandomerDude on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:37AM (#31578144)
I disagree but have no idea why you're getting downvoted. You stated your point clearly and without malice.

That said, I think the ability to advance is highly dependent on (1) what type of work you're in, and (2) the culture of the company. If the type of work you're in is genuinely remote-compatible, the prevalence of remote work will actually help solve the problem you're concerned about. I know many who work full-time remote positions in big corps and have not had trouble advancing.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by Gigachad on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:45AM (#31578182)
The topic has become highly political because other people going to the office or speaking positively about offices threatens remote work for the rest.

Same thing that happened with masks, no one was ok with someone else choosing differently because the bigger group would force their way over the smaller group.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by nharada on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:36AM (#31578511)
With masks though people wearing masks didn't at all affect the people not wearing them. Remote work is tough because either:

* You want to be in-person: If everyone is remote there's no point in going in.

* You want to be remote: If everyone is in-person, you're at a career disadvantage.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by ziml77 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @10:30AM (#31582312)
What you're saying about masks isn't true. Unless they're N95 or similar masks, people with masks on were doing more to protect others than themselves. Cloth masks don't really impede the virus from floating in, but they do massively reduce how far expelled aerosols fly.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by native_samples on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:44PM (#31585399)
If that were true it'd be visible in the data but it's not. Masks did nothing yet a vocal minority forced everyone else to wear them and refused to accept the evidence it was pointless and harmful.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by eric_cc on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @11:59AM (#31583838)
> With masks though people wearing masks didn't at all affect the people not wearing them.

People didn't just choose to peacefully wear masks though. There was a large militant group that pushed for mandates to force everybody else to also wear masks.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by travisporter on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @04:25PM (#31587574)
No people most certainly did. I live in an area where covid vaccine fears, ivermectin, all sorts of crazy stuff was routine convo but all businesses were okay with me wearing a mask. They rolled their eyes but accommodated me. the “militant” group was definitely not pro-mask. Also, it’s a facemask. Decent people would take a small hit to not get others sick. But it was more profitable to deny, sow doubt and stomp around screaming freedom.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by oaiey on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:23AM (#31578427)
In some way that process is called Democracy :) but also mob rule :)
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by mantas on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:55AM (#31578943)
In democracy it depends which side can found a louder expert. Either it's human right to work from home and everybody must adhere. Or human right to see coworkers and everybody must go to offices.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by oaiey on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:39AM (#31581644)
What is a human right is a majority decision right?
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by mantas on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:39PM (#31586244)
Didn’t see a referendum for appending human rights. Recently it seems like fringe organizations declaring something a human right is a way to try to override democratical process.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by assttoasstmgr on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @03:06AM (#31578998)
> and I worry about my ability to advance.

This is another hidden downside to remote work; the sycophants and ladder climbers (not accusing you of being one) didn't go away, they simply had to adapt to the environment and find new means of doing so. In my experience this entailed being invited to endless clearly-unnecessary-but-mandatory Zoom meetings, the value of which was at best questionable. Only to find out said meeting was really a scheme for management visibility, filmed before a live studio audience of senior engineers.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by hooande on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:36AM (#31578510)
I wish there was a better middle ground. Your enjoyment of in office work and related career advancement seems to require others to work in a way that they don't feel is necessary or productive. If only part of the company decides to work from the office, you might not get the same benefit that you had before.

You shouldn't have to work from home because others want to do so. Other people shouldn't have to work from the office because that's what's best for you. Ultimately I see this working itself out with people changing jobs, perhaps for a period of years, until things have sorted into a "work from where is best for you" equilibrium. That could be a chaotic and disruptive time for many people and businesses :(

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by 0xRusty on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @07:36PM (#31589508)
Just wanted to throw another voice in the camp of disliking WFH and reassuring you you are not in the minority. We'll maybe we are now, but the tide will turn once promotions start going to those showing their face around the office.

I wouldn't go back to remote working if you doubled my salary

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by MomoXenosaga on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @04:29AM (#31579443)
Just give people the choice.

I wonder if this is an American thing where bosses are still seen as the authority figure? In my country a company is seen as a team effort. Treat your employees as adults not school children.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by eric_cc on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:00PM (#31583867)
> In my country a company is seen as a team effort.

What country?

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by forum_ghost on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:39AM (#31578155)
>I wouldn’t be where I am if remote work was the norm

why not? It's probably just as likely you wouldn't be where you are if your several pivotal points in life went only slightly different.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by vicda on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:25AM (#31578438)
All of the pivotal points in my career came from serendipitous moments that happened with coworkers outside of my core team at the office/at lunch/at holiday parties. That kind of natural cross pollination is near dead when working fully remote.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by prawn on Thursday June 02, 2022 @12:16AM (#31591280)
I don't work a typical job but I do operate in a space where in-person interactions can create opportunities. I think you can emulate a bit of that aspect by being proactive with incidental communications. Obviously nothing forceful, but just staying friendly with people - asking questions, offering help, showing interest, building general rapport.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by vicda on Sunday June 05, 2022 @08:59PM (#31636348)
How do you build rapport with people outside of your job responsibilities? Randomly sending out "Hey, how's it going?" messages to everyone?

Watercooler/lunch/coffee break social interactions are all but dead when working remotely.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by prawn on Sunday June 05, 2022 @09:14PM (#31636441)
Email them after something has been launched: "Hey - design of that new contact form looks great!" Find little excuses to be complimentary. Or if there's slim, existing rapport, ask a couple of people for feedback. If you don't get much in return, try others.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by vicda on Sunday June 05, 2022 @10:16PM (#31636739)
Thanks for the response! Kneejerkingly that feels weird, but that's surely because I've never been apart of cold emails/messages like that. I guess I just have to make that part of my new normal.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by prawn on Sunday June 05, 2022 @10:43PM (#31636855)
I think a key is not to try or push too hard. It's lighthearted and casual. You're not measuring any attempt for success or getting despondent if no one cares - you're just being sociable and ultimately should eventually make connections or develop rapport. Unless you are seriously unlikeable, people will remember those that give them feedback or are nice to them without being transparent in trying to get something for themselves.

And if you're not naturally sociable, convince yourself that this is the type of person you have chosen to be. "I'm the type of person that makes these small efforts."

I always think of it in basketball/coaching terms. If there's a non-shooter at the top of the key and the coaching instruction is to sag off them, don't react instinctively and rush out to defend. Just stick to the process and the odds are that over time the smart method plays to your advantage. Don't get upset if people don't reply (they might be busy, for one thing) and don't overwhelm them with replies if they do.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by vicda on Sunday June 05, 2022 @11:50PM (#31637106)
I'm very social in person, it's just the "cold email" part of it that is off putting for me. There's no observable social norm around this from my perspective. You can be a wallfly at an event and pick up norms, but you can't do that will chat/email. Maybe it's a generational gap thing, but the only times I get that type of interaction is from vendors who want something, group emails, or it's from someone I already know quite well.
Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by forum_ghost on Thursday June 02, 2022 @08:43AM (#31594082)
The same works in person too.

You make your own “serendipity”.

Some just win a small lottery at times, and don’t even realize it.

Re:Elon Musk Tesla email: Remote work is no longer acceptable by spoils19 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @03:25AM (#31579089)
All of the pivotal points in my career came from delivering quality software, on time and under budget. That kind of work cannot happen with the constant distraction of in-office work.