There's a difference between hearing about a social event that you missed after the fact and seeing it going on live without you in real time.

High school was hard enough for me when the web was just barely coming out of its primordial state of "some nerdy stuff for dweebs".

I also can't imagine the magnitude and speed of social and interpersonal relationships that happens as a result of social media and just instant communication. Trying to navigate that as a teen is just something I can't comprehend, before one learns how to truly be equanimous as an adult who has a separate identity from how they are perceived by others.

Similar, but different. I don't let my child use social media at all, and limited to 30 mins screen time total a day. She's excluded in that all her friends use TikTok, and she can't.

Maybe it's for the best.

My parents used to say 'if all your friends jumped off a bridge...', and I hated it, so I haven't used that one yet. I'm trying to rely on actual merits instead of follower cliches.

I don't understand such strict screen time limits. As adults everything will be on a screen. Might as well start getting good at it.

My kids are <10 and they have youtube limits, but they can play heaps of interactive games where they learn about resource management, team play, how systems work, how to solve problems and how to think.

I will even let them back on the computer in the evening after dinner if they want to do programming or level editing in Roblox, or make music in garage band, or something else creative.

We have different parenting styles, and that's OK. I hope your children turn out wonderfully.

I want for my child to have a bigger playground, so to speak. Reading books, playing with kids outside, bothering our neighbors constantly to pet and play with their dogs, making dandelion necklaces, etc. When she's on her phone she just zombies out, and it's like watching a device suck the soul from such a warm and extroverted person.

Things will change with time, but for now, I want her to appreciate and enjoy being a kid. The time for 8 hour screen days can wait.

Yes! Last year when I was pulling all the Ivy from my yard we demolished the back fence and the neighborhood kids were always in our backyard. The sound of the trampoline springs was like alarm. "Come out and play!"

Perhaps one differences is my kids don't have phones at all. No social media. My kids screens are tools for creativity and interactivity. PC's. There is not much zombie face.

Update: Oh also, its very social. After the home schooling in the lockdown, the kids have all their school friends in discord and google chat. There is lots of chatting and laughing and the occasional augment. (which is all part of learning)

You cant play with other kids outside when you are isolated from other kids or when they organize outside play on platform you are not allowed to use. And when all other kids have X and you dont have X, the experience of playing together is experience of not really belonging among them.

>And when all other kids have X and you dont have X, the experience of playing together is experience of not really belonging among them.

On the other hand, it's probably a good skill to form to learn how to adapt when others have something you do not. Other people having access to more resources is something that you deal with your entire life.

I agree with you on something: too many discussions mention 'screen time' as if anything done on a screen was perfectly equivalent. I really feel that playing a videogame/coding/doomscrolling/watching ads/reading/... are all very different activities with different consequences.

There’s a huge difference between video games as well. I wanted to show my nieces what I was playing as a kid, so I bought them aladdin and lion king pack on a Nintendo Switch that I bought for them, but they just want to play Mario Kart, which I think is boring, as it contains so many random elements, that they don’t really have to put in the effort to go through the levels.

I agree that there is a difference between video games.

However, I do not agree with your example. Elements of randomness don't mean a (video) game is trash, and I personally think Mario Kart requires effort to be good at. :)

Indeed. As someone in their 20s one of my regrets, genuinely, is that when I was younger I didn't just spend more time playing video games rather than doomscrolling...

"As adults everything will be on a screen. Might as well start getting good at it."

With all kindness, this is a bit defeatist. True, chances are they'll spend most of their lives sitting in front of a screen. That's no excuse to skip exercising and neglect physical form. Likewise, they need to develop healthy screen habits, which is stay as far away as humanly possible from screens, or else be devoured by them.

Haha, its only defeatist if you think there is something wrong with screens :)

There is much more to life than staring at a screen.

Rather than dive into screen vs. no screen - let me ask: what games are they interacting with? I'm at the very least curious to have a look.

I think the screen vs. no screen debate misses another important point: what am I doing while they're watching something or interacting with a screen? Kids certainly need their own play time and autonomy. But what I don't like about screen time for my kids is the easy excuse it gives me to not pay attention to them.

So, no judgement on the screen vs. no screen from me. That 30 minutes from the TV can my time to zone out too. But it can also be, instead, 30 minutes during which I teach them something/play with them/etc. rather than let the screen take over.

Putting a limit on their screen time helps ensure they use their time intelligently and not just to mess around on TikTok.

Much of what you said can be done outside the screen too, if in alternative forms.

I'm 17, and I've grown up with a smart phone in my hand.

I wish my parents reduced the extent to which I was exposed to recommendation algorithms at a young age.

Recently, I've become aware of how much of the time I spend on social media is not necessarily time I want to be spending there. The problem with recommendation algorithms is that they always recommend you continue watching and scrolling. When I was young, I used to read 500 page books like they were nothing, but as I've spent more time on short form entertainment, the harder it has become for me to engage in long form content like books. I still do fine in school, and I've been generally successful, but I feel like if I can't sit in silence for 30 minutes, I'm not really in control of myself. Any time I have a period of boredom or free time, it's easy to fill it with entertainment, rather than thinking on my own.

I've been trying to break these habits (or, honestly, addictions) recently, but it's really hard after years of conditioning.

I don't think modern recommendation media is completely negative, but it is built on getting people addicted, and I can see why you don't want that for your children.

I’ll tell you that’s how my parents were about some stuff. Excluding me from stuff my peers were doing because they thought they knew best. They were mostly wrong and I don’t really talk to them today. Better hope you’re right.

Sorry to hear that. I think all parenting is just hoping you know best and doing best for the child. I have no rebuttal because maybe I have it all wrong.

On the other hand, my parents didn’t let me watch TV or play video games and I’m thankful for it. I didn’t talk to them for a few years, but today I’ve accepted many of their flaws and can better focus on what they can bring to my life. As a parent myself, I’m not too sure about the best course of action, but I sure believe I want to introduce my kids progressively to activities that require a lot of knowledge about themselves not to be harmful.

Agreed. I used to be so jealous of the kids that could do whatever they want but now I'm very happy my parents did that they did. I would say, at least in terms of metrics that are important to me, I've ended up in a better place than a lot of them. Now I'm sure some of them have other values and prefer their life but I am happy so I have to thank my parents

Kind of a shit situation where things like TikTok are quite obviously harmful and yet universally used so you become the odd one out for not using it.

Analogous to the whole nerd thing being made fun of until being a nerd itself became a culture. Hopefully social media goes the way of the cigarettes ... harmful, profitable and still used but not cool anymore.

Can I ask how old your child is? By the time I was a teenager, I needed greater than 30 minutes of screen time just to complete assignments. One high school class alone was over and an hour and a half on the computer.

She is 10. Yes, that many 10 year old are on TikTok, sadly.

I should have been more clear and said 'phone time', literally, because it's a Google Family Link phone limit. She's allowed to use a chromebook to do homework when needed, which honestly isn't often at this age. Honestly, computers don't seem to interest her much, yet.

exactly. the equation has changed. people who dont fit in are now even more fucked. everyone is obligated to play this high stakes game that nobody asked for and that wasnt filtered through any kind of intelligent societal deliberation. nobody seems to be worried that kids make the rules in public schools, they bully each other viciously and kids who graduate from the system cant point to the country of portugal on a map. its full blown insanity.

But most of them become very skilled in navigating the social media landscape, which is what actually matters to them.

And the people that don't fit in will usually put more energy in other ways to express themselves and have a much higher chance of becoming Truly Interesting People, if they make it through that pressure cooker.

It's tough and I'm glad I'm not a part of it, but it's not the end of all cohesion in society that some make it out to be.

That's kind of the issue. A lot of them are committing suicide. Many more end up permanently scarred. Mental health issues are no joke. The author, Haidt, will himself recommend the concept of anti-fragility. Which is essentially toughening kids through gradual and manageable amounts of adversity. Yet even he sees no value in social media for this process. In other words, social media is not a net good for kids. They don't end up more well-adjusted as human beings.

Dealing with school bullies and other unpleasantness is a useful skill for adult life.

Dealing with the social media rat race is merely a "skill" to become a good little consumer to generate more "engagement" for the social media companies later in life.

they will be skilled at something although im not sure it will be anything to do with socializing. and saying that outcasts will just be more likely to blossom because of it is just speculation.

at a certain point in history man began to eat plants and adopt a sedentary agricultural lifestyle. there were many people who were made sick by eating plants and very little meat or fat. very, very sick. there are still echos of it in the population today. was it a positive thing for all the skills of the past to be thrown away and a large chunk of people to be sacrificed because they werent compatible with the new way? sometimes a societal shift eliminates an entire class of people. youre wrong because you try to paint it like its zero sum for all classes of people. in reality, if it is zero sum its only because what we lose in sacrifice we gain in progress. can you believe this has been going on for ten thousand years and still it doesnt really have a name?

Or seeing it presented in ways that make it seem much cooler: Lots of events I've been to look way more amazing in pictures people post then they actually were being there. :)

As someone who lives near a beach, I cannot tell you how true this is.

I used to fish a lot, and would constantly see younger people, usually but not always women, come near me (because I'm away from the crowds) and setup a tripod and spend 20 or so minutes taking different selfies, then leaving.

I can 100% guarantee you the vast majority of those were going on instagram, writing a long story about how a day at the beach is good for your soul, etc...when in reality they just drove to the beach, took a few photos, then went home.