"I hope that even my worst critics remain on Twitter, because that is what free speech means."
which could imply that those banned for non-criminal speech would be reinstated.
specifically Trump's access to the platform is de facto supporting or implicitly allowing Trump's right to lie, attack our Republic, spread violence. (if don't agree crosses into violent words, at least should agree definition something like: suggestively, dog whistle, saying it without saying)
I don't believe anyone can make a good faith argument that his rhetoric did not incite violence. During the campaign, during BLM protests, and most important Jan 6
He was not convicted. That's the same as being tried and found not guilty in a court of law.
A republic isnt' based on "good faith arguments". There are 80 million people who will disagree with your "good faith argument".
This is why courts exist. A political impeachment is not an impartial legal system. What are you even talking about?
Your position of deciding for the public what the truth is is the biggest threat to the republic - not a single orange man.
But not convicted! Something you Trump obsessed seem to always leave out. So yeah, means nothing more than Clinton's impeachment.
BLM? The summer of love? Surely you jest!
And January 6 - sure you want to keep beating that drum? There is far more documented evidence of people on the FBI payroll inciting violence in the days leading up to January 6th than anyone in the Trump campaign, let alone of his followers. Indeed there is plenty of video of such wackos as Alex Jones and other right wing extremists telling people NOT to enter the capital. More video of capital police standing by or ushering people inside. I was watching it live on various live streams on January 6th because it smelled too good to be true. People being ushered inside by the capital police - that's one hell of an "insurrection". People walking between velvet ropes, not lighting shit on fire, spraying things with paint, knocking statues down. People walking inside of a public building and taking selfies. ZOMG! How will the republic survive?!?
How many convictions have they gotten - after more than a year - of these "insurrectionists"? Zero. A few plea deals that are now unraveling. But sure, keep bang that "insurrectionist" drum.
seriously? Where is this documented evidence that more FBI employees were violent leading up to Jan 6. More than hundreds and hundreds storming the Capitol?
You haven't seen the huge amount of footage of battering police, pepper spraying police, throwing spears at police, brutally beating a cop on the ground who now has long term head trauma, the death of police, ransacking, throwing over, messing with proprty.
crazy. flag.
The future causes me intense anxiety especially 2024 ;(
though i do work in politics so perhaps I think about it too much.
I have no idea how we can continue when such a large % of the country believes increasingly insane things
Nah, they all determined he did it. Republican Senators like Lamar Alexander were all quoted saying that both times, they just went on to say they didn't care or they think he learned his lessons.
> How many convictions have they gotten - after more than a year - of these "insurrectionists"? Zero. A few plea deals that are now unraveling. But sure, keep bang that "insurrectionist" drum.
Over 150 by my count. The Oath Keeper who was Roger Stone's bodyguard that day pled guilty to actual sedition!
It hasn't rolled up to Alex Jones and further up but it will, since he was intentionally leading people around to the east side for an attack on Pence by claiming Trump would "give a second speech" there.
https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1503855795951312898
If you wanted to actually follow this, which is kind of a waste of time but might be educational(?):
https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/04/04/the-evidence-needed-fo...
> Trump's right to lie, attack our Republic, spread violence.
I'd be happy with a right to lie, because it implicitly protects the rights of all others to speak truth.
Would "attack our Republic" include via speech? Then I support a right to "attack" a republic, any republic.
How does one "spread violence" that one is not engaged in?
Intent can not be separated either.
What do you mean you support the right to attack a republic? You want to attack our government?
We have a means to make change in our country/government. It's called Democracy, activism, and yes through protected (non violence causing) speech.
Directly trying to literally overthrow a free and fair election & government by the chief executive and Members who are sworn to uphold the law and constitution is explicitly sedition and their 'speech' that caused and incited this should not be and is not protected. Trump's lies directly caused this and his actions were (and still are) a threat to the very foundation of law that protects our speech.
He WAS involved in violence and is 100% responsible for instigating it on multiple occasions. He directed his supporters to act multiple times during first election on through most important Jan 6 obviously.
Congress was attacked. People with guns and weapons broke into the Capital. I do NOT support the rick to literally attack our Republic/country it's crazy that people support this. There was permanent injury and death to multiple people. It was violence. Many explicitly intended to kill members of Congress.
Attack has a broad meaning and use, perhaps my hint as to the sense I was using was strong enough. I've seen it defined as violence and as words. I support words, not violence, if someone wishes to criticise any government then I would support their right to do that, even though that government's supporters would frame it as an attack.
> He WAS involved in violence
I didn't realise that. Did he use his bare hands or a weapon? How many people did attack? (not the words sense)
This is just like saying that Putin is not involved in war in Ukraine. He obviously is, and we have a name for this kind of involvement and it is called a "war criminal”. He didn't have to pull any gun triggers.
Additionally, the claim is that Trump enacted violence. Putin has not enacted violence, he's ordered it. Of course Putin is involved, and he's legally involved, and even though he's not enacting violence he is on the hook for that violence (or should be). I don't know anyone who wants free speech, even proper absolutists, who would make this case (that ordering military action is covered by free speech). Do you know of one?
Now, please tell me which violence Trump was either actually involved in by actually committing violence or by ordering violence, and by "ordering" I mean making an official, legally backed order in the course of his duties as president and commander in chief, because I'd really like to know or even better, knock these silly claims on the head.
I won't hold my breath waiting.
Citation needed - and be specific with how he, personally, was "involved in violence".
Beyond his words, there are huge amounts of convicts who told the police they acted bc Trump's words or even used Trump's words as an argument in court to attempt to show they weren't directly responsible/as culpable. Trump might not punch protestors in the face himself, but his words cause acts of violence.
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Also given the topic twitter lays out specific examples on their platform.
https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/suspensio...
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The clearing of lafayette square Trump said 'bust some heads' and reports of some blatant attempts to order the military to intervene inappropriately the entire summer.
Trump saying "Seriously. Just knock the hell out of them. I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. There won’t be so much of them because the courts agree with us,"
“when the looting starts, the shooting starts.”
“I’d like to punch him in the face.” to a protester.
A funny gem: Wanted spikes on his wall that would 'pierce flesh' 'shoot migrants' build an 'alligator moat'.
Like, you can't make that up in a movie it would be too outlandish. Dr evil type contraption that can be easily overcome lol
BLM "“That will never happen with me. I don’t know if I’ll do the fighting myself or if other people will. But that was a disgrace. … I felt badly for him, but it showed that he’s weak.”"
Thugs pissing on and beating homeless people: “I think that would be a shame. I will say, the people that are following me are very passionate. They love this country. They want this country to be great again. But they are very passionate. I will say that,”
infamous "very fine people" (charlottesville)
Lots of reports of his wanting to use the military during the summer with clear tone and political intent. some reports of nebulous rants about doing the same after he lost to try and hold onto power.
"we’d like to get them out a lot faster, and when you see these towns and when you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just see them thrown in, rough, I said, please don’t be too nice. Like when you guys put somebody in the car and you’re protecting their head, you know, the way you put their hand over, like, don’t hit their head and they’ve just killed somebody. Don’t hit their head. I said, you can take the hand away, okay?"
Gianforte body slam: “Any guy who can do a body-slam ... he’s my guy.” (wish we would have won that race Kathleen is great candidate...)
Lots of campaign rally examples.
“See, the first group, I was nice. ‘Oh, take your time.’ The second group, I was pretty nice. The third group, I’ll be a little more violent. And the fourth group, I’ll say get the hell out of here!”
“You see, in the good old days, law enforcement acted a lot quicker than this. A lot quicker. In the good old days, they’d rip him out of that seat so fast — but today, everybody’s politically correct,”
Another video of Trump saying “Get him the hell out of here! Get him out of here! Throw him out!” to a BLM protestor while a member of the crowd physically beats protester
Edit: This is not about whether de-/replatforming is the right thing to do. Only about the fact that Musk can have (legitimate or illegitimate) reasons other than his political support of Trump.
Anything that is afforded to the public (for whatever price) is a public square, any ban or deprivation from it amounts to censorship and exclusion. This is unremarkable on the micro scale (e.g. a golf club or a coffeshop) because alternatives are plenty and easy to find, but when a huge corporation with effectively monopolistic control of a huge slice of some market does it it's worrying. And it should worry you even if you happen to like the effects of one particular incident, because the same machinery that allows such incidents to happen is bound to impact you someday.
I agree but the analogy is still a bad fit. A better one would be a phone company back in the days of of AT&T's monopoly. If they kicked you off of their service then you'd lose access, in practical terms, to all those people. This was considered enough of a problem in the past that you weren't allowed to lose your phone service for the content of your speech, on or off of the phone.
I think the analogy extends quite well when we consider the lengths other concerns have gone to in crushing competition, the Parler debacle being the most obvious.
The part of the analogy that holds, in my opinion, is the part where a monopoly concern can kick people off for the content of their speech. It wasn't right with telephone and it doesn't seem right with this but they are being treated differently. I'd say that's because speech is powerful so the logic goes that it must be curtailed, if you're against certain views.
I'm someone who's confident that truth will win the day given a fair hearing, hence, I want freedom of speech.
When you share something on Twitter, there is literally a script (executed by Twitter) that shares that same thing with all your followers. That's essentially the primary mechanism of Twitter, and I would argue that it's fundamentally very different than you choosing to call everyone to know to tell them something (at least for people with more than, say, Dunbar's number of followers). Because of the fact that it's automated, essentially instant, and essentially unbounded in its reach, it is mechanically much more similar to robocalling than to calling your friends to tell them something.
> I would argue that it's fundamentally very different than you choosing to call everyone to know
Okay, one is a broadcast to subscribers and the other is single calls to subscribers. The end result is the same, again, the difference is in implementation and convenience.
I think this is a 19th/20th century idea that generally held because of, and not in spite of, the natural barriers to mass communication. Those barriers were the "fair hearing" (an author needed to spend weeks/months/years on their work. They probably spent several years before that studying their topic, or journalism, or whatever. It needed to pass through editors, maybe peer review, etc. It had to compete with others working just as hard, etc.)
For the first time in human history it is easier to broadcast disinformation, lies, and propaganda than it is to broadcast accurate information. This form of truly unrestricted access to mass communications has nearly put a stake in the heart of western democracy in less than 20 years. I am not at all confident truth will win the day.
> I think this is a 19th/20th century idea that generally held because of, and not in spite of, the natural barriers to mass communication
I've heard this take a lot and I'm not sure I agree. The invention of the printing press by Gutenberg offered the same relative change in communication reach. Previously, only wealthy entities (nobles, ecclesiastical authorities, etc) could have the money to create actual written books to disseminate ideas. Literate non-wealthy people could only hope to make a sign and hope for the best. The monopoly on distributing ideas lay with the wealthy and the state.
> For the first time in human history it is easier to broadcast disinformation, lies, and propaganda than it is to broadcast accurate information.
The printing press led to centuries of chaos in the form of the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther used the printing press to print several copies of his "99 Theses" and plastered them on the walls of churches, widely disseminating his ideas. Now, after a renaissance, an enlightenment, and an Industrial Revolution in the West, we have built the cultural norms in place to deal with the negatives of Print. We have social norms separating tabloids from newspapers. We understand that different newspapers have different biases.
Governments have tried to restrict what can and cannot be printed. Many Enlightenment-era empires (Empire of Russia, Austro-Hungarian empire, etc) restricted what can be printed by whom. The Soviets famously only allowed government-approved publications until Glasnost under Gorbachev. In the end, despite the dangers we've found in unfettered public speech, the benefits have proved more salient.
I think it's a lack of norms. A lot of folks don't know how to treat the Web. They see a hot-take/dunk on Twitter and because they agree with the aesthetics of a person's post and some of their other content, they think of the poster as "correct" and retweet/share their content. That's how online tribes form. I'm confident that in a few generations, we'll all "know" much better how to navigate the online world. Until then, much like the aftermath of the printing press, there will be instability.
Completely unmoderated free speech is beneficial to them because regular people that can't even tell what's real or fake aren't ever going to organize to the point where the privileged positions of the elite are challenged.
Trump starting Truth Social and Musk buying Twitter are literally the same thing to me. They're both tying to prevent any kind of unison or popular movements that could de-throne them from their positions as the ruling elite. They both also want to ensure their status as the loudest voice in the room can't be taken away because they use that to convince the average person they "deserve" to rule the world.
So what you're saying is that whatever you or your party claims "threatens democracy" -- justified with some vague and arbitrary standards you just invented and that you judge -- is what threatens democracy. And anything anybody else thinks is wrong.
And by the way questioning election integrity and voicing concerns about that is not "threatening democracy" so that's just not some fundamental truth you've stumbled upon there either, other people can disagree about that. If your democracy is threatened by people voicing their concern about election procedures and results and must silence them to function, then it's not really much of a democracy.
What about people concerned about voter suppression or gerrymandering or whatever? Do we need to silence them too? I'm sure you're going to come up with some other vague handwaving as to why those don't meet your criteria for silencing your political opponents.
So now you see why pro-free-speech people don't like these kind of restrictions, because they can and are abused.
The asymmetry of the disinformation war markedly benefits the fascists. There is no need to bow down to them "because free speech."
That's a deeply depressing take.
He may not be a supporter, but certainly has similar methods. Using mobs of useful idiots to flaunt the law is a bad thing.
No. I think they've been frequent, intense subjects of government scrutiny, including antitrust litigation.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/16/business/elon-musk-politi...
Musk overtly uses his companies to retaliate against people who criticize him; he's not at all radically free speech in the sense of believing the owner of a company should not fully utilize the company to promote views that serve their interests and suppress others.
I still would be surprised if we saw Musk abusing his powers to make user-generated things disappear from Twitter.
Except the description of Musk as pro-radical-free-speech and the benefits supposed to result therefrom rely entirely on the definition (otherwise problematic, sure) that free speech means exactly that, and specifically that private actors will not use their own freedom to materially retaliate against you for your unwelcome speech.
Sure, you can maybe defend Musk being for “free speech” in exactly the sense that people claiming that Musk being for it will change Twitter say isn't “free speech”, and is the problem with the current approach at Twitter. But that...defeats the argument for Musk being a beneficial change.
For some insane reason in the US left and liberal have become synonyms. Now, I am both, but I want the separation to be there so I can be both and distance myself from the illiberal left.
What I find really scary is that since left-wing has become to mean the same as liberal, a large part of the US population has come to define themselves as anti-liberal when I really hope that is not true.
The first line of wikipedia for liberalism is: "Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, private property and a market economy."
I sincerely hope that is something we can come together and agree are important in the US. Even though it sounds like you and me have very different political views it also sounds like we agree that all of these are good. That means we have a wide array of items we agree on, but that are in danger at the moment. It seems to me there is a common platform most of us could agree to, but both parties have been to some degree hijacked by extremist so both of us to some extent are supporting illiberal candidates when we really don't agree with that.
Which is also not much of a home, since it generally is inhabited by non-serious people- but at this point at least I can morally live with a platform of you stay out of my way and I'll stay out of yours. The other options have too many compromises right now.
Replacing FPTP with RCV would elect more centrists, but without proportional representation there'd still be two parties I think.
I think the problem is not that the parties are too strong, but that are too weak to strong interest groups.
But liberalism is primarily about freedom, about equality under the law, but not necessarily economic equality. Low taxes, little social security, wealthy industrialists owning everything is still compatible with equality under the law. So there are economically right-wing and left-wing interpretations of liberalism.
Similarly, people who are for or against economic equality can have liberal or authoritarian views on how to accomplish that.
People have this idea that there are only two possible points of view.
You're actually advocating for the "other investors", like the Saudi Prince. Imagine being a real, actual liberal and advocating for a government that behead women for "cheating" on their "husbands" – OVER – a billionaire building EVs.
And if you are into words over actions, watch his TED talk. I don't see any reason why he would bring Trump back on. His main talking points were the invisibility of Twitter's algorithm. When pressed on being a "free speech absolutist", he conceded several points where it doesn't make sense to be an absolutist.
Citation needed. They aren't great but that isn't a punishment in KSA
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/woman-stoned-death-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Ar...
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/9/5/beheadings-fl...
> The use of public beheading as the method of capital punishment and the number of executions have attracted strong international criticism.[65] Several executions, particularly of foreign workers, have sparked international outcries.
"that isn't a punishment in KSA" – well, it actually is. Beheading is beheading. You're splitting hairs at this point. You didn't say "isn't a punishment for cheating", you said "isn't a punishment in KSA" period.
There's that accuracy you wanted.
It's possible, of course, to hold different political views on different aspects of society.
Musk might believe that we need to take better care of our planet, and also hedge against the possibility that we destroy it and need to find a new home.
He can also believe that freedom of speech should be near-absolute, and that Trump (et al.) deserve to be allowed to be on Twitter.
He can also believe that high taxes, large government, and business regulation of any kind is bad.
None of these views are necessarily in conflict with each other, and many of them might be considered liberal, but they can still result in a dystopian future.