I don't believe anyone can make a good faith argument that his rhetoric did not incite violence. During the campaign, during BLM protests, and most important Jan 6
He was not convicted. That's the same as being tried and found not guilty in a court of law.
A republic isnt' based on "good faith arguments". There are 80 million people who will disagree with your "good faith argument".
This is why courts exist. A political impeachment is not an impartial legal system. What are you even talking about?
Your position of deciding for the public what the truth is is the biggest threat to the republic - not a single orange man.
But not convicted! Something you Trump obsessed seem to always leave out. So yeah, means nothing more than Clinton's impeachment.
BLM? The summer of love? Surely you jest!
And January 6 - sure you want to keep beating that drum? There is far more documented evidence of people on the FBI payroll inciting violence in the days leading up to January 6th than anyone in the Trump campaign, let alone of his followers. Indeed there is plenty of video of such wackos as Alex Jones and other right wing extremists telling people NOT to enter the capital. More video of capital police standing by or ushering people inside. I was watching it live on various live streams on January 6th because it smelled too good to be true. People being ushered inside by the capital police - that's one hell of an "insurrection". People walking between velvet ropes, not lighting shit on fire, spraying things with paint, knocking statues down. People walking inside of a public building and taking selfies. ZOMG! How will the republic survive?!?
How many convictions have they gotten - after more than a year - of these "insurrectionists"? Zero. A few plea deals that are now unraveling. But sure, keep bang that "insurrectionist" drum.
seriously? Where is this documented evidence that more FBI employees were violent leading up to Jan 6. More than hundreds and hundreds storming the Capitol?
You haven't seen the huge amount of footage of battering police, pepper spraying police, throwing spears at police, brutally beating a cop on the ground who now has long term head trauma, the death of police, ransacking, throwing over, messing with proprty.
crazy. flag.
The future causes me intense anxiety especially 2024 ;(
though i do work in politics so perhaps I think about it too much.
I have no idea how we can continue when such a large % of the country believes increasingly insane things
Nah, they all determined he did it. Republican Senators like Lamar Alexander were all quoted saying that both times, they just went on to say they didn't care or they think he learned his lessons.
> How many convictions have they gotten - after more than a year - of these "insurrectionists"? Zero. A few plea deals that are now unraveling. But sure, keep bang that "insurrectionist" drum.
Over 150 by my count. The Oath Keeper who was Roger Stone's bodyguard that day pled guilty to actual sedition!
It hasn't rolled up to Alex Jones and further up but it will, since he was intentionally leading people around to the east side for an attack on Pence by claiming Trump would "give a second speech" there.
https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1503855795951312898
If you wanted to actually follow this, which is kind of a waste of time but might be educational(?):
https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/04/04/the-evidence-needed-fo...
> Trump's right to lie, attack our Republic, spread violence.
I'd be happy with a right to lie, because it implicitly protects the rights of all others to speak truth.
Would "attack our Republic" include via speech? Then I support a right to "attack" a republic, any republic.
How does one "spread violence" that one is not engaged in?
Intent can not be separated either.
What do you mean you support the right to attack a republic? You want to attack our government?
We have a means to make change in our country/government. It's called Democracy, activism, and yes through protected (non violence causing) speech.
Directly trying to literally overthrow a free and fair election & government by the chief executive and Members who are sworn to uphold the law and constitution is explicitly sedition and their 'speech' that caused and incited this should not be and is not protected. Trump's lies directly caused this and his actions were (and still are) a threat to the very foundation of law that protects our speech.
He WAS involved in violence and is 100% responsible for instigating it on multiple occasions. He directed his supporters to act multiple times during first election on through most important Jan 6 obviously.
Congress was attacked. People with guns and weapons broke into the Capital. I do NOT support the rick to literally attack our Republic/country it's crazy that people support this. There was permanent injury and death to multiple people. It was violence. Many explicitly intended to kill members of Congress.
Attack has a broad meaning and use, perhaps my hint as to the sense I was using was strong enough. I've seen it defined as violence and as words. I support words, not violence, if someone wishes to criticise any government then I would support their right to do that, even though that government's supporters would frame it as an attack.
> He WAS involved in violence
I didn't realise that. Did he use his bare hands or a weapon? How many people did attack? (not the words sense)
This is just like saying that Putin is not involved in war in Ukraine. He obviously is, and we have a name for this kind of involvement and it is called a "war criminal”. He didn't have to pull any gun triggers.
Additionally, the claim is that Trump enacted violence. Putin has not enacted violence, he's ordered it. Of course Putin is involved, and he's legally involved, and even though he's not enacting violence he is on the hook for that violence (or should be). I don't know anyone who wants free speech, even proper absolutists, who would make this case (that ordering military action is covered by free speech). Do you know of one?
Now, please tell me which violence Trump was either actually involved in by actually committing violence or by ordering violence, and by "ordering" I mean making an official, legally backed order in the course of his duties as president and commander in chief, because I'd really like to know or even better, knock these silly claims on the head.
I won't hold my breath waiting.
Citation needed - and be specific with how he, personally, was "involved in violence".
Beyond his words, there are huge amounts of convicts who told the police they acted bc Trump's words or even used Trump's words as an argument in court to attempt to show they weren't directly responsible/as culpable. Trump might not punch protestors in the face himself, but his words cause acts of violence.
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Also given the topic twitter lays out specific examples on their platform.
https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/suspensio...
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The clearing of lafayette square Trump said 'bust some heads' and reports of some blatant attempts to order the military to intervene inappropriately the entire summer.
Trump saying "Seriously. Just knock the hell out of them. I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. There won’t be so much of them because the courts agree with us,"
“when the looting starts, the shooting starts.”
“I’d like to punch him in the face.” to a protester.
A funny gem: Wanted spikes on his wall that would 'pierce flesh' 'shoot migrants' build an 'alligator moat'.
Like, you can't make that up in a movie it would be too outlandish. Dr evil type contraption that can be easily overcome lol
BLM "“That will never happen with me. I don’t know if I’ll do the fighting myself or if other people will. But that was a disgrace. … I felt badly for him, but it showed that he’s weak.”"
Thugs pissing on and beating homeless people: “I think that would be a shame. I will say, the people that are following me are very passionate. They love this country. They want this country to be great again. But they are very passionate. I will say that,”
infamous "very fine people" (charlottesville)
Lots of reports of his wanting to use the military during the summer with clear tone and political intent. some reports of nebulous rants about doing the same after he lost to try and hold onto power.
"we’d like to get them out a lot faster, and when you see these towns and when you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just see them thrown in, rough, I said, please don’t be too nice. Like when you guys put somebody in the car and you’re protecting their head, you know, the way you put their hand over, like, don’t hit their head and they’ve just killed somebody. Don’t hit their head. I said, you can take the hand away, okay?"
Gianforte body slam: “Any guy who can do a body-slam ... he’s my guy.” (wish we would have won that race Kathleen is great candidate...)
Lots of campaign rally examples.
“See, the first group, I was nice. ‘Oh, take your time.’ The second group, I was pretty nice. The third group, I’ll be a little more violent. And the fourth group, I’ll say get the hell out of here!”
“You see, in the good old days, law enforcement acted a lot quicker than this. A lot quicker. In the good old days, they’d rip him out of that seat so fast — but today, everybody’s politically correct,”
Another video of Trump saying “Get him the hell out of here! Get him out of here! Throw him out!” to a BLM protestor while a member of the crowd physically beats protester
specifically Trump's access to the platform is de facto supporting or implicitly allowing Trump's right to lie, attack our Republic, spread violence. (if don't agree crosses into violent words, at least should agree definition something like: suggestively, dog whistle, saying it without saying)