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Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by yccs27 on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:47PM (#31159652)
Re-platforming Trump is also not the same as being pro-Trump.

Edit: This is not about whether de-/replatforming is the right thing to do. Only about the fact that Musk can have (legitimate or illegitimate) reasons other than his political support of Trump.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by jacobsenscott on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:04PM (#31159835)
It is though. Being removed from twitter isn't being censored. Twitter is a megaphone, not a public square. If I take my megaphone away from someone in the public square I'm not censoring them. They just need to find another, or get their own, or stand on a box and shout. They are still in the public square. If I hand my megaphone to someone I am explicitly endorsing them.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by Banana699 on Monday April 25, 2022 @06:49PM (#31161827)
Where does this end ? If twitter is not a public square but a megaphone, then a public square is also not a public square but a megaphone, technically speaking I (possibly with the support of a mob) can ban you from entering the public square and you can still stand on the roof of a nearby house and shout your ideas. Your internet connection is also not a public square but a megaphone, your electricity is not a public square but a megaphone, and your mobile connection is not a public square but a megaphone. I can lobby gas station companies to never service you and that wouldn't be harrasment, you just need to find another gas station not controlled by all the ones I lobbied, or possibly start one of your own :).

Anything that is afforded to the public (for whatever price) is a public square, any ban or deprivation from it amounts to censorship and exclusion. This is unremarkable on the micro scale (e.g. a golf club or a coffeshop) because alternatives are plenty and easy to find, but when a huge corporation with effectively monopolistic control of a huge slice of some market does it it's worrying. And it should worry you even if you happen to like the effects of one particular incident, because the same machinery that allows such incidents to happen is bound to impact you someday.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by brigandish on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:25PM (#31160113)
> Twitter is a megaphone, not a public square.

I agree but the analogy is still a bad fit. A better one would be a phone company back in the days of of AT&T's monopoly. If they kicked you off of their service then you'd lose access, in practical terms, to all those people. This was considered enough of a problem in the past that you weren't allowed to lose your phone service for the content of your speech, on or off of the phone.

I think the analogy extends quite well when we consider the lengths other concerns have gone to in crushing competition, the Parler debacle being the most obvious.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by tshaddox on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:36PM (#31160259)
Phone networks don’t really have any sort of fan-out speech amplification though (unless you’re talking about things like robocalling, which generally are regulated and aren’t considered protected the same as individuals).
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by brigandish on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:56PM (#31160482)
That amplification is the choice of the users (or should be, obviously Twitter likes to try and shape this). It's like me calling you and you liking what I have to say and then calling all your friends to tell them, modern tech makes that easier. Robocalling is more akin to running a script to spam users via a bot, wouldn't you say?

The part of the analogy that holds, in my opinion, is the part where a monopoly concern can kick people off for the content of their speech. It wasn't right with telephone and it doesn't seem right with this but they are being treated differently. I'd say that's because speech is powerful so the logic goes that it must be curtailed, if you're against certain views.

I'm someone who's confident that truth will win the day given a fair hearing, hence, I want freedom of speech.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by tshaddox on Monday April 25, 2022 @06:12PM (#31161422)
> It's like me calling you and you liking what I have to say and then calling all your friends to tell them, modern tech makes that easier. Robocalling is more akin to running a script to spam users via a bot, wouldn't you say?

When you share something on Twitter, there is literally a script (executed by Twitter) that shares that same thing with all your followers. That's essentially the primary mechanism of Twitter, and I would argue that it's fundamentally very different than you choosing to call everyone to know to tell them something (at least for people with more than, say, Dunbar's number of followers). Because of the fact that it's automated, essentially instant, and essentially unbounded in its reach, it is mechanically much more similar to robocalling than to calling your friends to tell them something.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by brigandish on Monday April 25, 2022 @09:13PM (#31162883)
Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "script". That's it's a script is an implementation detail, it's not automated like a bot. In the same way, if we focus on the mechanism of a call then a robocall is not much different to a human.

> I would argue that it's fundamentally very different than you choosing to call everyone to know

Okay, one is a broadcast to subscribers and the other is single calls to subscribers. The end result is the same, again, the difference is in implementation and convenience.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by jacobsenscott on Monday April 25, 2022 @05:26PM (#31160857)
> I'm someone who's confident that truth will win the day given a fair hearing, hence, I want freedom of speech.

I think this is a 19th/20th century idea that generally held because of, and not in spite of, the natural barriers to mass communication. Those barriers were the "fair hearing" (an author needed to spend weeks/months/years on their work. They probably spent several years before that studying their topic, or journalism, or whatever. It needed to pass through editors, maybe peer review, etc. It had to compete with others working just as hard, etc.)

For the first time in human history it is easier to broadcast disinformation, lies, and propaganda than it is to broadcast accurate information. This form of truly unrestricted access to mass communications has nearly put a stake in the heart of western democracy in less than 20 years. I am not at all confident truth will win the day.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by Karrot_Kream on Monday April 25, 2022 @08:14PM (#31162517)
To preface this, I am not a free speech absolutist.

> I think this is a 19th/20th century idea that generally held because of, and not in spite of, the natural barriers to mass communication

I've heard this take a lot and I'm not sure I agree. The invention of the printing press by Gutenberg offered the same relative change in communication reach. Previously, only wealthy entities (nobles, ecclesiastical authorities, etc) could have the money to create actual written books to disseminate ideas. Literate non-wealthy people could only hope to make a sign and hope for the best. The monopoly on distributing ideas lay with the wealthy and the state.

> For the first time in human history it is easier to broadcast disinformation, lies, and propaganda than it is to broadcast accurate information.

The printing press led to centuries of chaos in the form of the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther used the printing press to print several copies of his "99 Theses" and plastered them on the walls of churches, widely disseminating his ideas. Now, after a renaissance, an enlightenment, and an Industrial Revolution in the West, we have built the cultural norms in place to deal with the negatives of Print. We have social norms separating tabloids from newspapers. We understand that different newspapers have different biases.

Governments have tried to restrict what can and cannot be printed. Many Enlightenment-era empires (Empire of Russia, Austro-Hungarian empire, etc) restricted what can be printed by whom. The Soviets famously only allowed government-approved publications until Glasnost under Gorbachev. In the end, despite the dangers we've found in unfettered public speech, the benefits have proved more salient.

I think it's a lack of norms. A lot of folks don't know how to treat the Web. They see a hot-take/dunk on Twitter and because they agree with the aesthetics of a person's post and some of their other content, they think of the poster as "correct" and retweet/share their content. That's how online tribes form. I'm confident that in a few generations, we'll all "know" much better how to navigate the online world. Until then, much like the aftermath of the printing press, there will be instability.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by donmcronald on Monday April 25, 2022 @05:07PM (#31160618)
Yeah. IMHO the thing people don't realize is that all of the wealth elite are only in it for themselves. They don't go against each other because ultimately they all have the same goal - more money for the wealthy elite no matter what the cost to the planet and everyone else, so a lot of their attitudes and goals are going to align regardless of political ideology.

Completely unmoderated free speech is beneficial to them because regular people that can't even tell what's real or fake aren't ever going to organize to the point where the privileged positions of the elite are challenged.

Trump starting Truth Social and Musk buying Twitter are literally the same thing to me. They're both tying to prevent any kind of unison or popular movements that could de-throne them from their positions as the ruling elite. They both also want to ensure their status as the loudest voice in the room can't be taken away because they use that to convince the average person they "deserve" to rule the world.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by kelnos on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:56PM (#31159730)
Parent upthread never claimed Musk was pro-Trump, just that Musk's views on freedom of speech and censorship would likely re-platform Trump, regardless of Musk's politics.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by robonerd on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:50PM (#31159674)
Correct. Just like Amazon selling the Communist Manifesto doesn't make Bezos a communist.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by jacobsenscott on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:08PM (#31159880)
Incorrect. There is no equivalence. Selling books is different than actively targeting and lying to people you know will believe you.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by ameister14 on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:52PM (#31160439)
It appears you are mistaking 're-platforming Trump' (more similar to selling books) with actually being Trump (more similar to lying to people).
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by throwawaylinux on Monday April 25, 2022 @07:06PM (#31162000)
Do your politicians never lie or "actively target" people with misinformation?
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by jacobsenscott on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @05:57PM (#31173684)
It isn't binary - magnitude, intent, and frequency matter. "I did not have sex with that woman" doesn't threaten democracy. "The election was rigged." does.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by throwawaylinux on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @07:12PM (#31174320)
How about "Trump colluded with Putin to hack the election"?
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by jacobsenscott on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @05:52PM (#31186268)
Nobody said that though. No sitting president tried to use it to topple the government. No political party made it the central plank in their platform. Degree matters.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by throwawaylinux on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @06:46PM (#31186780)
People absolutely did say that and tried to connect that with the election being illegitimate and took it much further for much longer than a few election audits.

So what you're saying is that whatever you or your party claims "threatens democracy" -- justified with some vague and arbitrary standards you just invented and that you judge -- is what threatens democracy. And anything anybody else thinks is wrong.

And by the way questioning election integrity and voicing concerns about that is not "threatening democracy" so that's just not some fundamental truth you've stumbled upon there either, other people can disagree about that. If your democracy is threatened by people voicing their concern about election procedures and results and must silence them to function, then it's not really much of a democracy.

What about people concerned about voter suppression or gerrymandering or whatever? Do we need to silence them too? I'm sure you're going to come up with some other vague handwaving as to why those don't meet your criteria for silencing your political opponents.

So now you see why pro-free-speech people don't like these kind of restrictions, because they can and are abused.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by robonerd on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:57PM (#31160491)
Wait you lost me, who's lies are you talking about? Trump's, or Musk's? They've both lied a lot, but that similarity doesn't make Musk a Trump supporter.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by jacobsenscott on Monday April 25, 2022 @05:11PM (#31160660)
I'm saying selling books that promote controversial or even heinous ideas is not the same thing as allowing someone to broadcast those ideas at will in real time.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by robonerd on Monday April 25, 2022 @05:37PM (#31160996)
Neither would make him a Trump supporter.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by KerrAvon on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:00PM (#31159784)
It is, though. There's no need to re-platform Trump for "free speech" reasons. He can speak at ay time and people will hear him regardless of the forum.

The asymmetry of the disinformation war markedly benefits the fascists. There is no need to bow down to them "because free speech."