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Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by memish on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:24AM (#31110671)
I would spend 15% of my net worth on free speech. Wouldn't you?

A lot of people downvoting, so I'll expand; It's fair to give the benefit of the doubt given that Tesla is helping combat climate change and SpaceX is about becoming multi-planetary. These are civilization level problems and solutions.

The idea is to make twitter a TRUSTED public square. He suggests open sourcing the algorithm and making all moderation actions visible to the public. Makes sense as transparency is needed to rebuild trust in the platform.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by Daffodils on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:54AM (#31111116)
TSLA is helping rich people think that they are helping combat climate change, whilst keeping their unsustainable car centric lifestyle.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by CryptoPunk on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:31PM (#31111606)
Tesla has replaced two million gasoline cars with electric cars, and given its current growth rate, this number will likely be massively larger in a few years.

Musk has since long ago pursued a publically disclosed plan for Tesla, for the company to release progressively more affordable electric vehicles, so the current growth rate in number of vehicles sold could very well be sustained for years to come.

Beyond Tesla's own sales, its success has sparked massive investment by other carmakers to push their electric vehicle manufacturing timetables forward. There is no reasonable case to be made that Tesla has not had a massive impact on pushing the world to replace gasoline vehicles with electric ones. And most people consider that to be good for the environment, even if you now don't.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by status200 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @02:05PM (#31113053)
If you live in an area that primarily gets electricity from coal plants, the break even point for a Model 3 to gas cars is 80,000+ miles [1]. EVs aren't some magic carbon-negative solution, and the politics Musk plays to get raw materials are a net negative for the planet as a whole.

[1]https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifeti...

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by dane-pgp on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:05PM (#31113873)
> If you live in an area that primarily gets electricity from coal plants

That's a rather extreme assumption. The article you linked to also gives the more representative figure of 14,800 miles for "U.S. average energy mix (23% coal-fired, plus other fossil fuels and renewables)".

To put things in perspective there are only 12 states that are majority coal powered (according to 2017 numbers[0]):

    1. West Virginia - 93.2%
    2. Wyoming - 85.7%
    3. Missouri - 79.8%
    4. Kentucky - 78.2%
    5. Indiana - 73.2%
    6. Utah - 70.5%
    7. North Dakota - 64.5%
    8. Nebraska - 59.8%
    9. Ohio - 57.2%
    10. Wisconsin - 55.1%
    11. New Mexico - 54.8%
    12. Colorado - 54.3%
Also, it's not unrealistic for a Model 3 to do 80,000+ miles. Some have already managed 100,000 miles[1], which is apparently the minimum warranty period too.[2]

[0] https://stacker.com/stories/3356/states-producing-most-elect...

[1] https://electrek.co/2019/10/21/tesla-model-3-100000-miles/

[2] https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/how-long-does-a-tesla-ba...

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by csa on Thursday April 21, 2022 @02:47PM (#31113635)
> If you live in an area that primarily gets electricity from coal plants, the break even point for a Model 3 to gas cars is 80,000+ miles [1]. EVs aren't some magic carbon-negative solution, and the politics Musk plays to get raw materials are a net negative for the planet as a whole.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifeti...

Do you have a bone to pick with EVs? This seems cherry-picked/straw man to me.

The 80k+ you refer to assumes electricity is sourced 100% from coal, which happens never in the US.

Even West Virginia, a haven for coal, it’s only 88%. Wyoming is also in the 80s. There are a few in the 50-70 range, but most states are sub-35, with many being 0.

[edit] For our most populous states, CA checks in at 0.1%, NY 0.1%, FL 7%, and TX 16%.

https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-g...

This article shows how US sources of electricity have changed in the past 20 years or so.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/24/climate/how-e...

Contrary to what you state, I would say that EVs are doing a good job at lowering overall emissions from passenger vehicles, and this will become more true as renewables increase their percentage in our electricity production mix.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by indiv0 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:04PM (#31113861)
Even if that 80,000+ miles point is true it’s still better than a gasoline car over its lifetime and completely dishonest because who the hell is buying a Tesla and living in an area with 100% coal fired power? Germans?

The “U.S. average energy mix” comparison of 14,800 is much more accurate.

Not to mention the equation gets more and more favourable to EVs with each passing year.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by VirusNewbie on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:01PM (#31114520)
I really don't appreciate people on HN posting wildly inaccurate links, I think that's something we need to be discouraged from doing. Second, are you unaware of solar panels?
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by JoeAltmaier on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:33PM (#31111639)
A lot of assumptions there that things will continue to get cheaper, cost in manufacturing will drop, battery range will continue to improve, charging stations continue to proliferate, the grid respond to the burden, and no missteps in captialization and expansion cause it all to collapse.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by CryptoPunk on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:39PM (#31111728)
Extremely safe assumptions given the investments being made by Tesla, not to mention other carmakers. The electric grid responding to the burden is almost certain as well, given the history of the grid handling decades of rising year-over-year energy usage in most localities.

As for mistakes, the company can afford many small to intermediate missteps and still accomplish what I described, because the company's momentum is already pushing it to accomplish these achievements.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by JoeAltmaier on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:09PM (#31112181)
Optimistic!

The grid has not responded well, that is history. Fast Charging stations are a huge draw, and home recharging raised the bar for substations everywhere. It will take decades to respond.

Battery advances - well that's a crystal ball I don't care to gaze into.

And company momentum is a myth. Cash flow is king - the day you don't make payroll, you close. It's a markov chain with a terminating condition. Play any markov game long enough and you reach that node and its all over. So a gamble every time.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by CryptoPunk on Thursday April 21, 2022 @02:17PM (#31113211)
I have seen no numbers to support the claim that mass installation and employment of charging stations will have an extraordinary impact on electricity usage, beyond the normal annual increases that the grid has been able to facilitate.

As for batteries, you don't have to bet on battery advances, just the scaling up of manufacturing, which is already underway.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by kevingadd on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:44PM (#31112736)
Do you have data supporting that Tesla replaced 2 million gasoline cars? Selling electric cars does not mean that the buyer has gotten rid of their gasoline-powered cars, and it's not uncommon for one person to own multiple cars.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by CryptoPunk on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:59PM (#31112962)
I have no reason to assume Tesla encouraged more people to become car owners. That would be quite the expensive status symbol for a non-car owner to take up. And those who own a gasoline-powered car buying a Tesla as a second vehicle would still reduce usage of the first vehicle.

So assuming that most of those two million sales weren't in lieue of the sale, or at least use, of gasoline powered cars, doesn't seem reasonable to me.

But let's be extremely conservative in our praise of Tesla, and say that the company took one million gasoline powered cars off the road and replaced them with electric cars. That is quite the accomplishment if you accept the premise that electric vehicles are better than gasoline-powered ones for reducing the impact on climate.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by morsch on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:50PM (#31111899)
Apart from the last sentence, you're not really addressing the grandparent's point, and that last sentence is not a very convincing argument.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by Peritract on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:56AM (#31111160)
> It's fair to give the benefit of the doubt given that Tesla is helping combat climate change and SpaceX is about becoming multi-planetary

I don't think it's reasonable to give the benefit of the doubt to [highly debatable claim] based on uncritically accepting other [highly debatable claims].

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by CryptoPunk on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:34PM (#31111645)
Replacing gasoline-powered cars with electric ones helping combat climate change is "highly debatable"?
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by Peritract on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:05PM (#31112113)
Replacing gasoline-powered cars with electric vehicles is potentially part of combating climate change, but this depends a lot on the specifics of manufacturing etc. [1]

Regardless, "helping combat climate change" is at best an incomplete description of Tesla, in the same way that Nestle is not perfectly captured by "Good food, good life" ; these are potential side-effects, rather than inarguable core missions.

We should be wary of accepting the slogans of profit-driven organisations as the truth. Wendy's is focused a lot more on selling than locating beef, for example.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/timabansal/2021/05/13/how-green...

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by CryptoPunk on Thursday April 21, 2022 @02:09PM (#31113116)
It's a very significant part of combating climate change, without which there is no hope of achieving zero carbon, and no company has done more to make that happen than Tesla.

One can praise Tesla while still acknowledging that it should not be blinded trusted to always work in the public interest, and also while recognizing Tesla's contributions alone are not enough for human civilization to get to zero carbon.

Minimizing how significant Tesla's contribution has been relative to other carmakers', and in fact, the vast majority if not all other companies in general, is not an honest way of addressing these inadequancies and challenges you highlight, and suggests to me a motivation unrelated to environmentalism behind it.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by giantrobot on Thursday April 21, 2022 @02:59PM (#31113792)
Replacing a gas powered car with an EV in an area served by coal power is definitely not helping either air pollution or climate change. It's only moving emissions from the tail pipe to a smoke stack. An EV is only a net negative CO2 producer if you charge it from renewable sources. Even then it'll only be a net negative only after the break-even point for the CO2 produced by the construction of the EV and charging system.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by epgui on Thursday April 21, 2022 @08:18PM (#31116778)
This is like saying that taking the first step is useless because there are more steps to take before you get to destination.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by CryptoPunk on Thursday April 21, 2022 @07:08PM (#31116285)
It's widely understood that switching to EV is part of a larger package of policies that can get society to zero carbon but it is nonetheless an absolutely necessary part of any zero carbon future. Tesla's role in pushing that forward is highly commendable, by any reasonable standard.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by majkinetor on Friday April 22, 2022 @07:51AM (#31120481)
> It's only moving emissions from the tail pipe to a smoke stack.

I kinda like A LOT not having tail pipe smoke around me all the time on the streets...

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by AshamedCaptain on Thursday April 21, 2022 @02:59PM (#31113793)
I think a couple million gives you more than plenty to create as many WWW platforms for promoting as much free speech as you want. No need to burn so much money to also buy the brand name of one specific ISP.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by MisterBastahrd on Thursday April 21, 2022 @07:08PM (#31116284)
No? Because this has nothing to do with free speech. Twitter is a clout farm and he wants to own it.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by tyre on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:29AM (#31110748)
Musk cares about free speech in the same way as the US South cares about states’ rights.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by weakfish on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:58AM (#31111196)
Excellent analogy
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by mardifoufs on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:07PM (#31111313)
No, comparing Musk to slavery is probably not an excellent analogy. Jesus Christ
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by rsync on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:40PM (#31111749)
You’ve misunderstood the analogy.

The analogy is about misusing a high minded principle to further selfish - or even morally negative - ends.

It is, indeed, a good analogy.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by native_samples on Friday April 22, 2022 @05:15AM (#31119628)
He didn't misunderstand the analogy, it's obvious what was meant. He's pointing out that comparing Musk's intentions to slavery is absurd, which it is. It's a crap analogy because:

a. Nothing Musk is doing or wants to do with Twitter is immoral.

b. Even if you disagree the scale is totally wrong, but in analogies the sense of scale matters.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by weakfish on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:48PM (#31112788)
Yeah, rsync (great username) is correct in my meaning
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by FerociousTimes on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:46PM (#31111843)
Pearl-clutching!

Some fine example of antebellum Southern imagery there.

I love practical joke, keep 'em coming!

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by bigbillheck on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:13PM (#31112246)
Are you familiar with some of the recent allegations at Tesla : https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/tesla-cal...
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by bombcar on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:55AM (#31111145)
Everyone agrees that "free speech" should have limits (e.g, not be free) but nobody agrees on where those limits are.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by nradov on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:42PM (#31111785)
The majority of US citizens agree with the very narrow limits on free speech defined by the Supreme Court. Only a fringe minority want much stricter limits, or no limits at all. Twitter could potentially align their content policy to match US law and stop censoring legal content, although that would make it less valuable to some advertisers.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by thebigman433 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:04PM (#31115161)
> The majority of US citizens agree with the very narrow limits on free speech defined by the Supreme Court

Do you mean to say that the majority of people believe this is how private companies should operate? If so, Id love to hear your reasoning for thinking that, because I would disagree heavily.

Saying racist stuff is legal, but its still going to get you kicked out of almost every bar, with few to no complaints from other patrons.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by jeremyjh on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:12PM (#31112226)
We already have that, it’s called 4chan.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by robonerd on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:46PM (#31112763)
Not really, most of 4chan is moderated (albeit inconsistently and often capriciously.) I think the defining characteristics of 4chan are anonymity (from other users anyway, with some caveats) and the culture/reputation of the website.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by Barrin92 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:47AM (#31111011)
>I would spend 15% of my net worth on free speech. Wouldn't you?

I totally believe that you would do that, I don't believe that Musk would do that, a guy so petty he once cancelled someone's Tesla order after he dared to make a 'rude post' on the internet, with an interesting justification about the nature of private businesses' ability to discriminate:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/694802955170553861

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/03/elon-musk...

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by deckard1 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:52PM (#31112857)
Let's not forget the time Musk tried to get a guy to take down a Twitter account that tracks Elon's private jet. If Elon owned Twitter he would just close the account himself.

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-offered-5k-remove-...

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by kjksf on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:02PM (#31113833)
Musk offered him money because he was concerned about his safety. Which is a very legitimate concern. See John Lennon.

It certainly wasn't an attempt to silence a critic, which is the thing people say he'll start doing when he gets control of Twitter.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by SXX on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:32PM (#31114162)
How having some twitter account affect his safety? That twitter account just re-post data that is completely public already.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by Teandw on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:57PM (#31114464)
Imagine someone stood outside your house and tweeted every time you left your house. They're not doing anything wrong, anyone can walk down the street and see if you leave your house.

Would you be happy knowing that all the criminals in your area now have easily accessible information on when you're home or not?

There's nothing stopping someone doing that. It's only someone gathering information that anyone else could and tweeting it. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by HWR_14 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @09:30PM (#31117249)
> Would you be happy knowing that all the criminals in your area now have easily accessible information on when you're home or not

I would gladly accept that in return for hundreds of billions, with which I could afford some former special forces bodyguards. And house guards for when I'm not home.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by Teandw on Friday April 22, 2022 @07:09AM (#31120227)
I guess you don't understand that your answer actually backs up the reason why it shouldn't be allowed to happen.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by kjksf on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:37PM (#31114224)
Publishing his location in real time affects his safety in a country where any whacko with a prior criminal history can get a gun. There certainly are plenty of people with serious grudge against Musk.

The data isn't "completely public". It takes non-trivial skill and effort to access this data.

I sure don't know how to do it.

It significantly rises the bar from "a whacko" to "a whacko with technical skills to access FAA monitoring system"

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by SXX on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:57PM (#31114473)
ADS-B is literally public data. There are several public exchanges that provide feeds without filtering and any person with one hour of time can access this data in real-time.

When some billionare buy private jet he is aware about fact that his jet can be easily tracked. If person decide to be a public figure he have to deal with fact that he'll be tracked around.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by robonerd on Thursday April 21, 2022 @02:05PM (#31113056)
If he closes that guy's account, that would be egregiously hypocritical. But I don't see anything wrong with merely offering somebody money to shut up.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by pastor_bob on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:02PM (#31111245)
Musk is not supportive of free speech worldwide. Only in the US and Canada, where he knows he can get away with it.