It’s never really about the dishes. The dishes are just a thing in physical space. That isn’t to say that you can’t be Disrespectful with dishes or that one or both people’s behavior and expectations regarding the minutia of the kitchen isn’t unreasonable. But fighting about dishes is really good indication that there are more fundamental underlying schisms in the relationship that should be addressed.

In my personal experience both in my own relationships and viewing the relationships of others, I feel like the domestic partner can often feel trapped and/or unfulfilled. It’s easy for the breadwinner to say “I bust my ass all day and I make all the money so that we can have this life”, but the other partner in this arrangement becomes totally at the will of the breadwinner. The breadwinner could change jobs or decide to move or divorce and continue working, but the domestic partner is totally effed. It isn’t an equal partnership unless the domestic partner truly feels agency. And until that point this underlying resentment will come bursting up like new islands in an archipelago, until the situation is resolved or dissolved.

Edit: the sibling comment regarding narcissism is also worth reading! I don't know your situation. Labeling someone as a narcissist is a nuclear option because it means you don't really see them as fully human anymore, but it can be appropriate if you have a large body of evidence.

> It’s never really about the dishes. The dishes are just a thing in physical space.

I'd clarify that sometimes it is actually about the dishes. As someone with ADHD being in a living space with clutter slows me down and perpetuates more clutter. My solution to that is to never generate that sort of clutter - it leads to a destructive cycle I've identified in myself.

If the person I'm sharing space with starts that cycle, I suffer from it and can't escape it without external intervention - hence, yea, sometimes the dishes literally are the focus (I mean - this pattern can be repeated with other household tasks, a laundry basket full of clean un-put-away laundry will grow over time until it's falling over the sides and periodic tasks like taking out the garbage require extreme vigilance to stay on top of, corners can not be cut).

But the physical space does effect our mental space, and looking around your sanctum sanctorum and seeing nothing but todo lists will erode mental health.

If dirty dishes trigger you, then you need to make sure the dishes get done. You are the principal person responsible for your own well being. You shouldn't force someone to do your bidding simply because you're triggered. I say this as someone who suffers from severe anxiety, and has to work very hard to not bully my family around to accommodate my anxiety.

> If dirty dishes trigger you, then you need to make sure the dishes get done.

Eliminating a net source of dirty dishes is an efficient way of doing that.

If you want to be in a relationship with someone, and they are triggered by dirty dishes, you might need to consider their needs in order to realize yours.

> If you want to be in a relationship with someone, and they are triggered by dirty dishes, you might need to consider their needs in order to realize yours.

Your argument is circular, don't you realize?

The triggered person should realize their un-triggered partner's need in order to realize theirs...

A healthy relationship involves giving and taking - it isn't bullying to have certain occasional needs. Nobody on earth is perfect, we all come with some quirks - because we only have one pass through life it can be difficult to tell what's reasonable and what's unfairly demanding, those making demands a third party would call unreasonable are often blind to it themselves... that said most relationships will compromise on arrangements either partner needs to operate healthily. My SO happens to suffer from absolutely atrocious migraines that can take them out for weeks at a time - I am flexible for accommodations on this point and they're flexible on my own needs, even if the exchange is uneven it may still be desirable to stay in a relationship that adds a lot to your life in other ways. Each individual needs to make the decision that's right for them.

On the topic of your anxiety, if you discuss it with your partner there is a good chance that through communication you'll become better at functioning as a unit then you could on your own.

When you agree to live with another person, you agree (whether you realize it not) to also live with each other's habits, cleanliness norms, organizational norms, waking/sleeping schedule, and many other details. Being a dictator, trying to change the other person, is not going to end well. Accept the person you are living with rather than trying to change them.

This goes both ways. If you move in with someone who needs the apartment to be tidy, then living with their norms means to ensure you aren’t leaving things around. It’s just as dictator-ish for you to demand they accommodate a messy living space as it is for them to demand you accommodate a tidy one.

A little late to the game here. You say “it is about the dishes“ but in the next sentence you yourself claim that it’s actually about your ADHD in your inability to handle other peoples levels of conscientious organization. And I guess that’s what I meant with my post: the dishes are involved but as soon as you describe the problem you realize that the locus of the problem isn’t the dishes the dishes are just an external symptom.

Honestly from the description you give, I wouldn't assign blame but it was probably the right call to break it off.

6 hours arguments that need to happen right now are a pretty big red flag...

an unresolved argument (if it's a serious one) makes it difficult for me to focus on work. (as a programmer and sysadmin, being distracted can be dangerous) if it happens in the evening i also can't sleep. so either way the day is ruined.

the solution then is obviously to learn to resolve arguments in a short time. actually, resolving the argument itself is not even the issue, but knowing that we still love each other is what matters.

so what needs to happen right now is to find a way for both of us to calm down, maybe hug and kiss and then get back to work until you have time to discuss the issue later.

> actually, resolving the argument itself is not even the issue, but knowing that we still love each other is what matters.

So much this. Having been taking classes and reading up on intentional/effective communication strategies for relationships one of the key aspects is having a way to say "i love you and acknowledge your grievance however i do not have the time, energy or emotional strength to discuss this now" this can be distilled down to a phrase, maybe just "pause" or a gesture followed by some kind of display of affection.

It's also critical that the other partner respects it. There's very little that's more damaging and less productive than continuing to argue with someone who has mentally checked out.

My ex would yell at me (red flag) until i just couldn't anymore, not listen to any requests for breaks (another red flag) then physically prevent anyone from leaving the room until she was satisfied (huge red flag) - even if you had to go to work.

Non-violent communication[1] is fantastic when both parties utilize it during disagreements as it helps prevent escalations. How you resolve differences is more important than the differences themselves and is foundational to any relationship.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication

A friend was following that book’s suggestions all the day. He sounded so fake. Horrible read IMO.

I don't know your friend nor you, so I can only speculate.

I can tell you that during my own journey trying to Be A Better Me it took time to internalize this kind of communication framework, to stop feeling like I was putting on a front and instead make it flow naturally as if this is just a part of my personality... because it did become just a part of me.

I have acquaintances from "the before times" that feel slightly put off by this aspect of present me, because they expect me to react more impulsively (or more "real") like I used to do. Nobody's wrong here, just mismatched expectations. Now that they see this is "really" me and not a mask I'm putting on, it leads to some gentle ribbing and that's it.

So putting myself in both your shoes: maybe your friend needs time to translate the core concepts of this into his own grammar and vocabulary, and it takes to acclimate to that from the outside too.

That's why I said it has utility when both parties to a disagreement appreciate it and use it.

I am very much the same on that part, it's hard to do great work when you are emotionally all over the place.

Other people are able to compartmentalize and put it off until later while going about their day. Having one of each in a disagreement is like adding fuel to the fire as both people get angrier that of the other is not accommodating their approach,and it becomes a much bigger thing. "Let's fix this now so I can do work" vs "Let's fix it later, so I can do my work".

When this sentiment leads to 6 hour long argument and partner missing work because of it, then it is beyond healthy need to finish argument.

Maybe it's a reflection of 6 hours total worth of small arguments missed over a long period due to too much work taking up time.

I'm the opposite of the OP, I really hate to not resolve problems straight away. My partner is the opposite she needs to avoid the immediate conflict. I think there is a balance to be had, the issue with just walking away from the discussion is that it feels to the partner like they are being stonewalled. The other thing I noticed is that I needed to get over the attitude that I pay for things so I can have higher expectations.

We went to couples therapy and the communication strategies we learned really and while we still have arguments they tend to be much more productive, but it requires work.

> need to happen right now

This is usually the result of the argument never happening otherwise.

I’ve been on the other end, trying to bring a subject for 10, 20 times. But it’s a big enough issue that when it’s brought up the other party feels they “need more head space”, “not ready now”, “need to get rid of some other stuff first”.

This probably means I’m not reading the room well enough, but thing is, the other party doesn’t come back to the discussion table when they’re ready to talk it out.

So at some point you come to the conclusion that timing doesn’t really matter, and except if their parents are literally on their dying bed, you’ll have to plow through their circumstances if you ever want that discussion to happen. So we ended up with a 3h hour cry and sob discussion in a parking lot after buying toilet paper in the middle of the night.

I'm of the kind that wants to talk things out, preferably immediately.

I had a similar experience: when my partner said she wasn't ready to talk now, I asked her to let me know whenever she's ready to talk it over, yet couple days later it's me bringing up the subject again, to similar effect. I guess some people just like to sweep things under the rug forever...

I worked from home for many years (before it was popular) and I had a family too. This kind of things happened to me and my wife a lot, hours of arguing while I should have been working.

You can work through it, you just have to care enough. We no longer have arguments longer than maybe 20 minutes now. It can just be personality types and where you are in life.

But a valuable person in your life? You work through that stuff to keep them, even if it's hard.

>You can work through it, you just have to care enough. We no longer have arguments longer than maybe 20 minutes now.

We went through the same. A few years of me getting my head on straight and not escalating fights so I could effectively communicate "I don't want to fight about this" and either "this isn't a criticism, this is something that's important to me" or "you're right, I'll start doing that" has made our fighting dry up almost entirely.

There are also folks that are suffering from real severe mental health crisises, and will continue to escalate and dysregulate over and over again - to their own and others detriment.

Having been on the receiving end of this - don’t keep trying to make it work if it gets to this point. Work on being a grey rock to them (non reactive) until you can get yourself and others to safety.

Also don’t tell them you’re leaving until you have a viable plan B that they can’t find. Kids make it much much harder, and unfortunately around 2 yrs old is often when it gets the toughest and this can happen.

You can't always work through emotional dysregulation issues (inability to return to baseline after six hours of argument being one indicator of such issues) by just talking it out. Sometimes you can, sometimes it's associated with something more fundamental like a personality disorder where professional help needs to be involved.

I just want to point out that it's not just personality disorders that can cause this. There are very real physiological problems that can surface this way, too. For example, some people have adrenaline issues where seemingly minor, or even pleasant things (like running into an old friend at the grocery store), cause a much larger than normal spike of adrenaline. If the person it happens to isn't aware of what's going on, they can react the way their body is telling them to (fight, flight, or freeze). Sometimes if they're aware of it, they can have enough sense to take a pause, but it is often very difficult because the biological response your body has is so overwhelming. It's as unpleasant for them as it is for the person who has to deal with their overreaction to the situation.

Wouldn't personality disorders be inseparable from physiological problems ? Is there any particular literature/reference you are basing this on, curious.

I have a theory I use that helps me with this, the "million dollar gun to the head" theory.

Would either of them stop fighting instantly if there as a gun to their heads or offered a million dollars?

If the answer is "yes", then it's entirely within their control to solve the problem.

The only people I think that fail this are psychopaths, and I think those are rare.

If you don't have experience with people prone to emotional dysregulation, it's hard to appreciate how it works, but you don't need to resort to such an artificial scenario like your gun scenario. People with some personality disorders can be triggered by seemingly little things into anger/rage states for 4-6 hours that cannot be resolved by talking them out, but if someone outside the household (i.e., someone who is not their partner or not their kids) shows up unexpectedly, they can often immediately control themselves. But the underlying dynamic doesn't get resolved, and generally won't be without professional tools that go beyond conventional talk therapy, like DBT.

Yup. Having been on the receiving end of it - she literally said afterwards she couldn’t stop herself.

Luckily, she was just stabbing the counter and not me.

My mistake for asking her how she was doing, apparently.

This is something I have been a witness to in my personal life, and you're right-- I don't have the tools to wrap my brain around this. I'm familiar with disabilities. I get that. You're unable to do this thing that other people find easy. But this.... this is a choice. If you can't regulate your emotions, you can't regulate your emotions no matter the context. If you can function just fine at work, but not at home, that's a choice you're making.

Or at least, that's how it looks from the outside.

I get that people who struggle to control their emotions would push back on that analogy, but I'm pretty accustomed to people creating whatever narrative they need to justify their behavior. Somebody acting badly and then making up a justification is something I deal with nearly every day.

It's hard for me to get a better justification than "maybe your 'personality disorder' is just being an asshole" past Occam's razor.

Is there something I could be reading about this to get a better picture? I know I'm coming at it from a general place of mental health, so, you know, that's not the best lens, but I also know I'm not crazy for thinking like this. Just maybe missing a puzzle piece.

I came to a conclusion that people who genuinely can't control themselves due to extremely low impulse control tend to end up in prison.

Those who claim that they "can't control themselves" yet somehow manage to be functional adults are lying - they can control themselves, they just can't be bothered.

This exact thing happened with my partner. Do you know what kinds of personality disorders are prone to this?

To quantify "rare" it seems there are about 1% of the population are psychopaths [0]. A quick search came across a number of refs to that number, but IDK if it is multiple studies, or just one a long time ago that is amplified through time.

[0] https://psichologyanswers.com/library/lecture/read/601609-wh...

I would start billing my own children if arguments lasted hours.

Or maybe you and your wife don't funge with every other pair of individuals in the whole world? Some people truly aren't compatible and make each other miserable.

I think more people give up and quit on compatible people than we care to admit. Getting along is hard for everyone under stressful situations. (combined with our own personal flaws)

It wouldn't be a six hour argument if he just said "You are right, I'll clean up after myself".

In my experience? It’s never about that, and if there was nothing to criticize, THAT would be criticized. It’s usually about some fundamental disconnect or unmet need by one of the parties, and without concerted honest effort by both to face it, it’s going to explode sooner or later.

The problem being, if they were already prone to spending concerted, honest effort in facing and talking about their problems, they would be a lot less likely to be in that place.

In my experience it's always about what I'm talking about. My wife often refuses to clean up after herself, I tell her "Please pick up the iced tea bottles you left on the floor" and she goes into a rant about one time 5 years ago when I didn't pick up a something and engages in lots of deflection. Then she says stuff like you said "Your just upset that you have a meeting at work", when really it's I'd like to not pick up after her.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

If your behavior is outside of the social norms (eg. you leave dishes out for others to clean) then admit fault and move on. If they bring something else up maybe you are correct in your thesis but why are you defending yourself when you are being a slob?

Uh, pretty clear her behavior is exactly what I’m referring to, and yours may be too?

If you think the behavior you described is just about a couple iced tea bottles, that is… not likely to go well long term in my experience. I hope I’m wrong for you though!

And the statement you’re making there seems to have a tone of resentment towards her which, unfortunately, is going to likely be a problem too.

This is a nice little vignette dramatizing the exact thing the article is about. You might want to consider that before you end up divorced.

When you are the only one paying for apartment, hobbies and school, since those "minor" things are out of her mind she has all the time and energy to ngaf about it and bloat her ego, manipulate and gaslight you into thinking you are not good enough boyfriend... husband... father...

These are classic manipulation tricks of narcissists.

And the fact that she allows herself to engage in a 6 hour argument during workdays knowing or not caring that it will absolutely fuck up your entire focus and ability to concentrate for days and bring you closer and closer to burnout and not being able to actually work speaks volumes on how much she cares about you and what she is after in these relationships in general.

She doesn't want an equal she wants a servant. She wants a slave. Both physically and emotionally. Every second... She defines the rules of the game and you obey and play. It's a given. Your whole life with her is her play...

Ugh... I say F that life.

You need to celebrate the day you dodged that bullet. Not everyone has a mental courage to throw those human-sized parasites out of their lives.

People can live 40 years blaming themselves for not satisfying narcissists enough, they reshape their whole identities and morale in the process trying to shove themselves into a shape that will hopefully satisfy ever evolving demands of a narc and never getting satisfied with their lives in the process or becoming self-enclosed philosophers but in most cases just plain miserable...

They finally divorce, while the narcissist will happily jump onto the next victim berating and destroying the personality of the previous victim ignoring the fact that that person's whole life and identity was a sacrifice on the altar of the "wants" of a literal demon.

It's a vicious cycle.

Narcissists should be pariahs in any social circle. Their ability to deliver huge amounts of damage and mess somebody up mentally for years is so underrated that I believe whoever comes in contact with such a person has an obligation to not only immediately jump out of that relationship but also warn others about that person.

Just like coming in contact with COVID you tell others around you about the danger, you should do exactly the same about narcissists.

I wish you all the best and hope now you are more than well equipped to spot these creatures.

And don't forget to transfer the knowledge to your children to break the circle.

Y’all… While I agree that narcissists are extraordinarily harmful, it’s possible OP and his ex partner’s communication dynamic is not indicative of her being a full blown narcissist. It could be that she felt her partner was simply non-responsive and a brick wall about her problems, which extended the argument to six hours, in what was hopefully an one-time occurrence. Open to being wrong, however.

Thank you for saying this. This resonates to a T.

I used to memorize her arguments so that I could use them against her later, only to find that she somehow had another ace up her sleeve. Indefinitely. Leaving me feeling, yet again, like everything was my fault.

My fault for not being understanding enough. My fault for not knowing what she was thinking or going through. My fault for bringing up the issue at the wrong time. My fault for being hurt by her comments or actions.

We separated 4 years ago and she's still telling everyone about how "abusive" I was.

> When you are the only one paying for apartment, hobbies and school

There are two sides to every story. I could say that this is what my wife and I do (because it is what we do), but it is out of convenience and the fact that I'm privileged enough to be able support both of us. It would be technically correct for me to say "I pay for your housing", but doing so would be weaponizing it unnecessarily. In our case we could split everything 50:50 too, we just explicitly choose not to because it's burdensome. I can't now use that against her whenever I want to.

I'm not saying this is OP's situation, but that it is an alternative possible read of the situation given the tiny fraction of detail we've been given.

>When you are the only one paying for apartment, hobbies and school, since those "minor" things are out of her mind she has all the time and energy to ngaf about it and bloat her ego, manipulate and gaslight you into thinking you are not good enough boyfriend... husband... father...

And even "normal" people can slip into this if left with little responsibility in the household.

Well said.

If I read this right:

- lots of arguments about things you considered small

- issues focused on “disrespect”, which is a perception thing that she had 100% control over

- needed to resolve issues immediately

- “resolution”, if it happened, took up to six hours with no option to end on your side

It sounds like she has some major issues that probably warrant professional help.

To be fair, you may have issues as well (e.g., things that are “minor” to you may be a big deal to most people).

If you want to resolve this internally, I recommend going to a relationship counselor/psychologist alone and just doing a reality check. Make sure you present her side to the counselor as reasonably as possible.

You will probably find a few things you could do better, but you will probably also find that you were being controlled by someone with major issues.

Fwiw, I think ending this relationship was a good idea.

> issues focused on “disrespect”, which is a perception thing that she had 100% control over

To note, solving that perception thing unilaterally more often than not means leaving the couple

The article touches on this, and many comments too, but even IRL talking to divorced parents, “X just didn’t give a shit about us” is a pretty common thing to hear as the core reason they chose to make it end, even considering all the consequences including the kids.

She's getting professional help. I have issues also, which I've been working on. But the things I would think were minor were maybe not "leaving a water glass next to the sink" minor, but maybe "forgetting to wash the dishes sometimes" minor (when the sink wasn't full... also the dishes were my chore)

It's not about whether those things are only an issue for her though, the fact that they are an issue for her still causes conflict, and was important to me, I just couldn't keep up with the things she needed in addition to the inability to resolve conflict quickly, and my work.

In case it helps you in the future, or for other readers here, let me just add: the symptoms you describe are well past the point where you probably need to see a therapist to make the relationship work.

There are things you can do to fix this. They require work on both sides, obviously, but it can be done. But unless you have way more self-awareness than I do, it's not likely that you're just going to pick them up out of thin air. The good news is, this is stuff you can learn.

If you prefer to read a book on this topic, the one I'd recommend is:

The New Rules of Marriage

by Terrence Real

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000NJL7RS

But I really do strongly recommend therapy in these situations. This is the sort of thing where the therapist can help you figure out whether you both have fault or if one person is really over the line. And then you're not responsible for convincing your parter that X thing they're doing is unreasonable.

Argument forced on you for hours of time during work hours because your partner wanted it now sounds horrible. She is an entitled narcissist who has no respect for you, your time, and your work. Congrats on dodging a bullet by moving out.

Good for you! Arguments measured in hours are a sure sign to GTFO.

If your point of view is how it was then that was an unhealthy and unequal relationship. Of course it hurts, but you did the right thing and you will be happier in the long run.

I've learned for myself to evaluate things as honestly for myself as possible. If she is any way right, I will immediately apologise and end the fight. But if I feel I'm right I will say how it is, even if it is hard to express and not give in. I will not escalate beyond necessary, but never give in. I will reevaluate arguments she gives, but only when I'm alone and at ease. I'm willing to deescalate, without giving in. This works for me (now).

If she does not contribute on an somewhat equivalent level to the relationship in your own measure...run. Relationships should be mutually beneficial. Don't let others take advantage of you.

I've only got what you've said here, so maybe there's another side where she's studying her butt off and keeping the house clean and you were throwing clothes and dishes everywhere like confetti, but a 6-hour argument? I can't think of anything I could care enough about to have a 6-hour argument about it. Hell, I'm not sure I've ever made it more than an hour. At some point, it's just not going anywhere, so I go to another room or something to be pissed off somewhere else.

It sounds like the situation wasn't working for her at all and it's for the best that it's over. Either she's overreacting or living with you was just impossible. Sometimes two people just don't mesh and it's not worth forcing it.

> some minor thing that exploded into a 6 hour argument, while I was trying to disengage the whole time, but couldn't.

If a minor thing can explode into a 6 hour argument, then there's no salvaging this relationship. Your partner was simply not ready for it. It's not even a red flag. It's like a Soviet Army marching on your lawn.

Run, run, run, because you deserve better.

> A couple weeks ago I had enough, and decided I needed more autonomy, and moved out

I don't know how long your relationship lasted, but I'm glad you made the right choice in the end.

> I might miss an entire day of work because of some minor thing that exploded into a 6 hour argument, while I was trying to disengage the whole time, but couldn't.

In this case, I would congratulate you for dodging the bullet. It seem to me, you was not the problem in that relationship.

I am even close to guess she was verbally abusive. And if not, then actually damaging to you.

I'm sorry you went through that, ending of relationships can be very difficult. I hope you can find some peace. From how you describe it, your ex sounds like she doesn't respect implicit boundaries like "don't argue when someone's working".

You're very right that what you see is a sign of incompatibilities.

Be glad you are free from this abuse.

sounds more like you dodged a bullet. If this person was able to shelve something and move past for a brief period of time to allow other aspects of life to continue, they are in for a world of disappointment.