News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I hate what video games have become by holler on Sunday March 27, 2022 @11:51PM (#30826957)
One complaint I've had with RL recently is that it seems like they've put all their energy into new visuals and cosmetics while leaving the game mostly unchanged.

The standard multi ranked map sometimes feels boring and I've wondered why they don't add different types of maps to the mix; spheres, tubes, different physics, goals in the center, figure 8 map(?), embankments (like map in season 1), etc.

I guess it's simple and works but it'd be cool to see new gameplay related updates.

Re:I hate what video games have become by telchior on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:30AM (#30827162)
Fair criticism, but one that is only relevant in the first place because of freemium. Prior to that business model, there was no such thing as a company continuing to provide regular, ongoing support to a 7 year old game of the non-subscription variety.

I mean, how or why would they? You release something; it makes 90% of its lifetime revenue in year 1; if you continue working on it for 6 more years, you're out of business.

As for the ownership or survivability of in-game virtual goods -- I think the author is referring to Valve's hats in Team Fortress 2? -- to me it's nonsensical to complain that you don't own it outside of the game. It only has relevance in the game, and it would be silly to ask the company to develop some external service just for owning your object. The ones that have tried that kind of thing just fail and look silly. But wait! Along come NFTs, with potential permanent ownership... but gamers despise that idea, too.

Gamers are just eternally grumpy and conservative about changes and progress. (I say that as a grumpy gamer, myself.)

Re:I hate what video games have become by AlexandrB on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:02AM (#30830556)
> Along come NFTs, with potential permanent ownership... but gamers despise that idea, too.

Permanent ownership of what? If the game servers shut down or you get banned[1] for some reason your permanent ownership is meaningless. Also how are NFTs different than the existing systems like the Steam marketplace in terms of functionality?

[1] Oh yeah, NFTs require you to have an online account for the game. I would argue my unlocks in SSBM are much more permanent than any game NFT because there's no account for Nintendo to ban that could cause me to lose access to them.

Re:I hate what video games have become by telchior on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:22PM (#30833776)
Thanks for the clarification. I haven't followed the NFT hype much but the one game startup founder I know who talks about it had ideas for permanent ownership in some kind of ... hand-waves metaverse.

Personally I view games as art that's closer to food than a painting: ephemeral, may disappear after being consumed.

Re:I hate what video games have become by saithir on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:55AM (#30828218)
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Patches

Yep, nothing to see here, no regular, ongoing support to a 20 year old game of the non-subscription variety at all. Warcraft 3 (from 2003) was similarly updated well into 2019.

Now, most regular games only get 2 or 3 years of attention.

> Along come NFTs, with potential permanent ownership... but gamers despise that idea, too.

Oh no, how dare we despise things that anyone can see will not work as advertised.

Re:I hate what video games have become by ThatPlayer on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:57AM (#30828923)
That's only regular if you ignore the 8 years of no updates between patch 1.16.1 in January 2009 to 1.18 in 2017. The same year they released Remastered to sell people. They've since also added cosmetics in skins and voice announcers: https://us.shop.battle.net/en-us/family/starcraft-remastered

Similarly Warcraft 3 had a 5 year gap between 1.26b in 2011 and 1.27a in 2016, which was probably about when they started development for Reforged, announced in 2018.

Re:I hate what video games have become by saithir on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @04:17AM (#30840086)
Even ignoring the patches after the gaps, that's still 1998 to 2009 and 2003 to 2011, so both much larger time spans than the parent poster's claim that nobody ever does that.
Re:I hate what video games have become by eru on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:55AM (#30828601)
StarCraft is a bit special with so much e-sports attention. I wouldn't necessary compare other games to it.
Re:I hate what video games have become by dtech on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:43AM (#30828846)
Starcraft is the exception rather than the rule. If you take a random sample of 20 year old games I'd wager that in the vast majority of samples none of them will have received updates in the last 15 years.
Re:I hate what video games have become by Aldqueath on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:02AM (#30828638)
Adding to that list, most valve games (even half life 1 from 1996) still getting updates today, and indie game terraria released in 2011 which got big content updates over a decade.
Re:I hate what video games have become by majewsky on Monday March 28, 2022 @08:16AM (#30829658)
If we are going to mention Terraria, we should also talk about Minecraft. I purchased it in 2009 and I'm still getting new content on a regular basis today. It's true that they have a subscription offering through Realms at this point, but it's entirely optional.
Re:I hate what video games have become by xeromal on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:05AM (#30831219)
I'd love to see the % of games that got the same love as starcraft.
Re:I hate what video games have become by mcphage on Monday March 28, 2022 @08:02AM (#30829561)
> there was no such thing as a company continuing to provide regular, ongoing support to a 7 year old game of the non-subscription variety.

Minecraft still gets significant updates.

> I mean, how or why would they? You release something; it makes 90% of its lifetime revenue in year 1; if you continue working on it for 6 more years, you're out of business.

I think a lot of these companies have found that it's the opposite—that games make 90% of their revenue in year 1 because nobody continues working on them. If you keep working on it, however, you can continue to get sales, because the more you work on it, the better the game becomes, and so people buy it just to see what everyone else is talking about.

Re:I hate what video games have become by cruano on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:36AM (#30830923)
Minecraft also has a marketplace, and a "Realms" subscription, and you can purchase it on different platforms if you want to play like that so there's plenty of ways to keep revenue coming
Re:I hate what video games have become by sweetbitter on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:44PM (#30835995)
The points of Realms and multiple platforms is true, though the PC version does not have a marketplace.
Re:I hate what video games have become by mcphage on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:36PM (#30836905)
Minecraft had many years of regular updates before either of those came out.
Re:I hate what video games have become by robin_reala on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:53AM (#30827838)
No Man’s Sky has been getting 6 years of updates purely out of a wounded sense of pride.
Re:I hate what video games have become by Groxx on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:38AM (#30828108)
Wounded pride and a ton of money for a small company like that. They got enough money to comfortably run the company for at least a couple years if not the entire time since launch until now. The wikipedia page sticks it right along-side other highly successful AAA launches around the same time because it was that "successful" despite being an absolute mess of a game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Man%27s_Sky#Sales
Re:I hate what video games have become by peterashford on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:08AM (#30827921)
I was very critical of No Man's Sky on release, but boy have they knocked it out of the park since. Super impressive piece of work
Re:I hate what video games have become by Lev1a on Monday March 28, 2022 @06:57AM (#30829190)
Obligatory link for discussions on NMS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5BJVO3PDeQ
Re:I hate what video games have become by gigaflop on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:27AM (#30831529)
I don't trust AAA studios, or any game studio for that matter, to implement NFTs in a responsible and ethical manner.

Ubisoft has announced NFT integration via their own platform. However, unlike an actual "I can do what I want with this" token, it may as well be a database entry in the company network: https://quartz.ubisoft.com/welcome/

I don't think there's any way to 'solve' NFTs in games right now: A true NFT can be moved anywhere on an open network (monkey jpeg receipts, etc), but a game-related NFT needs to be constrained to those users who play the game, otherwise it's even more useless.

It doesn't help that most things NFT-related are scams, hype bait, etc.

Re:I hate what video games have become by bluescrn on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:00PM (#30832692)
They have no real reason to use NFTs right now.

They can create digital scarcity of in-game items using a centralised server. Any NFT linked to an in-game item will be just as worthless when the servers are eventually shut down. And they don't want players buying and selling items, they want to take a cut every time a player buys something.

You're never going to be taking your Fortnite skins into FIFA or your Gran Turismo cars into Mario Kart. Ain't going to happen for a multitude of reasons.

(And if one publisher/developer does something like that as a gimmick, allow importing items into a specific another game, they could do that with a centralised database too)

Re:I hate what video games have become by tomtheelder on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:53PM (#30832600)
> I don't think there's any way to 'solve' NFTs in games right now: A true NFT can be moved anywhere on an open network (monkey jpeg receipts, etc), but a game-related NFT needs to be constrained to those users who play the game, otherwise it's even more useless.

Agree totally. NFTs for games make quite literally no sense. You are buying an asset or whatever from a central authority (the developer/publisher) that only exists or makes any sense within their game/platform/ecosystem. What value could a token bring there? The only value add I could see is that your ability to buy and sell the asset is now out of the hands of the publisher... except it isn't since they still control access to the asset and can therefor constrain your use of it in any way they see fit.

This is really a problem with most of the NFT related ideas floating around. Once a central authority is involved your token ceases being meaningful and just becomes, like you said, an ID in a database somewhere.

Re:I hate what video games have become by dkersten on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:06AM (#30830617)
> Fair criticism, but one that is only relevant in the first place because of freemium. Prior to that business model, there was no such thing as a company continuing to provide regular, ongoing support to a 7 year old game of the non-subscription variety.

Plenty of games get regular patches and updates (Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition being one I recently played) and back in the day, games would release paid expansions. No reason that Rocket League couldn't sell a map pack, for example. Sure, its a similar idea as freemium (pay for more content), but at least the expansions used to be sizable packs with lots of content. Old school expansions, as well as expansions like those of The Witcher 3 or the FROM Software games (which are often lauded as better than the base game), that cost about 1/4 the price of the base game for a decent content boost extend the life of the game, provide the developer with continued income and feel a lot less scammy than fremium games do.

Re:I hate what video games have become by geraldwhen on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:50AM (#30831054)
Multiplayer paid map packs fragment the user base and create smaller lobbies/angry buyers. It was a real problem for older halo titles.
Re:I hate what video games have become by hanselot on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:44AM (#30827791)
Back then: Pay for Game when it releases, launch day it mostly works, or the studio is dead.

Now: Pay for game prior to its release, launch day, people will tell you the bugs are actually features, studio milks franchise forever.

Re:I hate what video games have become by TulliusCicero on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:26AM (#30827680)
Not that I'm outright opposed to this kind of thing, but often messing with core mechanics in wacky ways is a lot more fun on paper than in practice.

There's a lot of games that have a sort of boring standard (SC2's 1v1 ladder maps are all same-y, nobody competitive plays Smash with items on, etc.) and the fact that you see this pop up repeatedly in unrelated communities should probably tell you something.

IMO, when you have a game with sufficiently deep mechanics, wackiness tends to obscure that depth, resulting in an experience that's less interesting rather than more. Like if you added Mario Kart abilities to football/soccer and suddenly the winning team was getting regularly blue shelled, I don't think it would improve the experience, even if initially it'd be hilarious.

Now maybe it's still worth it to have "party game" modes in some cases, I'm just saying that these modes might not have legs, so to speak, and thus may not be worth the dev effort if hardly anyone plays them.

Re:I hate what video games have become by dendriti on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:03AM (#30828258)
Those are pretty bad examples. Mario Kart and Smash are literally some of the top selling games of all time. If their "wacky ways" are played and enjoyed by 10% of players, that's still millions of sales.
Re:I hate what video games have become by TulliusCicero on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:42PM (#30832452)
They were designed to be party games first and foremost though. I think it's different when you take a more serious game and try to layer wackiness on top. If nothing else, there's a huge difference in player expectations.

Anyway that's why I also used SC2 as an example. Blizzard's attempts to add more wackiness/variety to the 1v1 ladder maps have generally been poorly received.

Now, SC2's co-op mode has a bunch of wackiness and did great, but note that this is very VERY separate from standard ladder/melee games. It's not just "oh we changed a few rules" or "we took the base game and added wacky items" it's a much more fundamental rework than that, it's an entirely new 'vertical' for the game. And yeah, that kind of thing could probably work for a game like Rocket League.

Re:I hate what video games have become by tomtheelder on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:56PM (#30832635)
It's probably more like 99% of players, but I think you're missing the point a little. What that commenter is getting at is that if your target audience are competitive players then it's not in your best interest to introduce "wackier" modes, as it isn't what those sorts of players want and might actually be off putting to them.

If your primary audience is casual, like in the case of Nintendo games, then it makes all the sense in the world.

Obviously you could argue that Psyonix ought to be appealing to a casual audience. That's a separate conversation, and I'd argue that RL is a fundamentally bad fit for that sort of game, but given what they have been going for thus far, not introducing crazier modes makes a lot of sense.

Re:I hate what video games have become by olau on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:38AM (#30827749)
You're probably right, but I still think we should add another ball to soccer/football and see what happens.
Re:I hate what video games have become by holler on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @07:21PM (#30849599)
ooh never thought of this, 3 balls! like foosball
Re:I hate what video games have become by Daneel_ on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:21AM (#30827121)
They did this a long time in the past (See: Rocket League Rocket Labs) and it was near-universally disliked.

The complication when it comes to adding new features is that Rocket League is built on top of a bespoke scripting engine that was discontinued after Unreal Engine 3, so they have to fully recreate RL in UE5. Because of this they don't want to put any additional resources into new features for UE3 since it's wasted effort once the game transitions to the new engine.

Re:I hate what video games have become by Arrath on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:04PM (#30832743)
I know I was always in the minority, but I loved the Rocket Labs maps and wished for more funky, mind bending ones.
Re:I hate what video games have become by holler on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:41AM (#30827205)
Interesting, have they said much about that or when to expect it?

I did like that game mode where the ball would gravitate towards the goal!

Re:I hate what video games have become by IshKebab on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:08AM (#30828291)
They turn those weird modes and maps on occasionally - called Limited Time Modes.

The only genuinely new one they've done for years was the NFL mode, which they presumably got paid for and wasn't very good.

Re:I hate what video games have become by Sturmis on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:31AM (#30828464)
Ball gravitating towards the goal has been available as a Limited Time Mode on a few occasions, it's called Heatseeker IIRC.
Re:I hate what video games have become by Kiro on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:15AM (#30827966)
That's like saying they should change the rules of football. Rocket League is a seriously competitive game and even the slightest change to the physics would have a big impact. I like that they have kept the core gameplay intact. It's beautiful and pure.
Re:I hate what video games have become by mcphage on Monday March 28, 2022 @08:04AM (#30829576)
> That's like saying they should change the rules of football.

They do that pretty regularly. Not in major ways, but the rules of football do change over time.

Re:I hate what video games have become by bart_spoon on Monday March 28, 2022 @08:19AM (#30829675)
The reason is because people absolutely hated that Tokyo map with the embankments, myself included. Rocket League is unique in that the core gameplay is so good, that messing around with it is just a bad idea. It’s like asking why there aren’t new pieces being released for Chess, or why people don’t start adding unconventional elements to a soccer field. It’s because novelties like those take away from what is already a solid experience. They have added some modes to that in non-competitive Rocket League, but RL is a unique game in that it seems like most players play the game in competitive modes, where those novelties are not appreciated, and so putting lots of work into those kinds of alternative arenas just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

I personally am glad the developers have realized they have a game like this and haven’t killed their game through adding more for the sake of more.

Re:I hate what video games have become by dkersten on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:10AM (#30830656)
Interesting. I haven't played Rocket League in years, but I actually liked that Tokyo map... it added variety.
Re:I hate what video games have become by evandale on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:25PM (#30835149)
Oh god, I forgot about how awful that Tokyo map was. I enjoyed the wide slightly sloped wasteland though.
Re:I hate what video games have become by holler on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @07:22PM (#30849610)
It wasn't great, but, it represented something different, and along with the hexagon map it added variety. Feels like there's much more room to get creative in terms of map shapes/obstacles/nuances.
Re:I hate what video games have become by xboxnolifes on Monday March 28, 2022 @09:26AM (#30830295)
> The standard multi ranked map sometimes feels boring and I've wondered why they don't add different types of maps to the mix; spheres, tubes, different physics, goals in the center, figure 8 map(?), embankments (like map in season 1), etc.

They tried. Wasteland, Neo Tokyo, and Starbase ARC were non-standard maps. Players complained about it, and now they are changed to be standard.

Re:I hate what video games have become by colechristensen on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:47AM (#30831024)
I liked wasteland, any other attempts were irritating.
Re:I hate what video games have become by evandale on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:21PM (#30835092)
>The standard multi ranked map sometimes feels boring and I've wondered why they don't add different types of maps to the mix

They tried that with the original wasteland map and there was huge pushback from the community and people demanded the maps be standardized.

Re:I hate what video games have become by ajmurmann on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:13PM (#30832880)
They added those types of arenas years ago and removed them all. In the ranked games these honestly felt to gimmicky and I'm pleased that the differences between arenas are now only cosmetic.

They still keep adding other game modes some of which are only there for a few days.

Re:I hate what video games have become by bhedgeoser on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:38AM (#30828512)
I think their dev team is too busy with the UE5 port.