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Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by dougmwne on Saturday March 26, 2022 @09:10AM (#30811508)
My partner sat in the same cube pod as someone who took their life. One day they were just gone and a crying family member came by to take away a box of things. There was no official acknowledgement of what happened, no service or memorializing, only hushed whispers. It was terrible.

Thank you for your humane response to Pete's death, for creating room for the team to grieve and official acknowledgement that it was no longer business as usual. This is one of those moments that leadership really matters. There's more to being a leader than shipping a volume of features, you are also an important figure in the lives of your team and they need you in a time of crisis.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by HeyLaughingBoy on Saturday March 26, 2022 @01:44PM (#30813773)
That is the worst! I remember when a long-time team member died unexpectedly one weekend. We all learned about it at the Monday standup meeting and we luckily had the common sense to cancel the standup because no one wanted to talk.

A number of us went to the funeral and his wife told me (I had met her once before) that she was so happy that his co-workers came to pay their respects. It made her feel that he had a larger impact than she knew of and it was comforting to her.

I hate, hate, hate the way corps try to brush away any unpleasantness like ignoring it means it didn't happen!

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by anonporridge on Saturday March 26, 2022 @02:13PM (#30813983)
> I hate, hate, hate the way corps try to brush away any unpleasantness like ignoring it means it didn't happen!

I personally don't mind it. It's a good reminder that we as individuals are just replaceable cogs in the machine, that all of us are only as valuable as the productivity we can contribute in the future, and that our sense of loyalty to it should be adjusted accordingly.

Don't ever expect a corporation of any kind to act like a human or a family, because it's not, even if they try to put on a humanoid face.

Having said that, I expect more corporations will start trying to act more humanely in the face of this kind of trauma, precisely because those that don't will engender a sense of deep distrust and disloyalty from their employees, which will make them weaker in the long run. The more generations of people go through the machine and see how it really works, and teach their children the truth, the less they'll be able to take advantage of naivety. This also tends to be a reason that the powers that be want tighter control on social media, so people can't as easily share widely the truth of their lived experience that will preemptively poison the trust of others towards machines designed to use and discard people.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by pizza on Saturday March 26, 2022 @03:17PM (#30814511)
Once heard this in response to a discussion of an org's virtue signalling. What do you make of it, in this context?

A man had been injured on a journey and was lying on the road, wounded. A good Samaritan saw him and helped him get up. Onlookers then retorted, "Well, the good Samaritan only helped him get up to signal their virtue!"

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by anonporridge on Saturday March 26, 2022 @03:37PM (#30814691)
An evolutionary psychologist might argue something like that.

Another way to put it, is that while the individual might act selflessly with pure and honest empathy, with no conscious expectation of something in return, this kind of behavior wouldn't have survived in our gene pool if there wasn't some evolutionary advantage to behaving that way.

So, the onlookers would really have to specify whether they're talking about the conscious being who is the good Samaritan or if they're talking about the unconscious entity that is the generic big brained ape that has deeply embedded survival and reproductive instincts that drive their conscious behaviors and desires outside of their control.

I can simultaneously say that the person was honestly just being good while acknowledging that the biological entity may have achieved some kind of advantage by signalling their virtue. Alternatively, I could also say that the good Samaritan is actually acting in a way that is a detriment to his survival, and only happens because of a bug in his generic and psychological programming or an old beneficial feature that is no longer good for a new environment and will eventually be removed via natural selection.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by Matumio on Saturday March 26, 2022 @08:05PM (#30816488)
But this is humans we are taking about. Humans have evolved genetically to be maximally flexible in behaviour. Our psychology is learned from role models and repurposed by our cultural institutions[1]. So here we are, discussing a story passed down over generations, to guide our moral values. This is culture, not biology.

This particular story teaches us that we should judge people by their individual intentions. Western cultures tend to judge that way[1]. Most other human cultures will ignore intentions and judge by outcome. They will also punish a whole family or clan, not an individual (except within their own clan or family).

So, according to our culture, we should judge people by their intentions. What about companies? Given that a company has many legal rights of a person, maybe we should judge it like a person - by the goodness of its intentions? Or maybe we can only judge individuals. But then why do so many individuals justify what they do with the needs of a company? Even questions about death, it seems.

[1] See Henrich's books: "The Secret of Our Success" and "The WEIRDest People"

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by meesles on Sunday March 27, 2022 @10:31AM (#30820514)
The fact that a company has the legal rights of a person is a mockery of human rights in my opinion, and Citizens United a huge mistake.

That aside, I don't think you can judge the intent of a company's actions. Let's ignore the small family business for now, but if you look at a big corp, decision making is a distributed responsibility with individuals checking off their part as it passes through their department.

There is no single person you can ask to determine intent. The intent of the many people making the decision could be contradictory, or someone like the CEO could be acting in bad faith and misleading his employees to approve a decision that benefits the CEO and no one else. We see this more frequently with crime or negative actions, where sometimes the CEO is the scapegoat but we conveniently forget the various VPs and individuals that contributed to the decision.

My point is that companies shirk responsibility by obfuscating individual responsibility, and I think that would apply the same way to judging a company's intent.

Lastly, judging implies a verdict, and you can't put a company behind bars. Yet companies are more than capable of committing atrocious crimes the likes of which rival war crimes (child labor/slavery in foreign countries, polluting waterways/airways and poisoning entire cities, running propaganda campaigns against the interest of public health, etc.) I find it ridiculous that a company can enjoy our rights but shirk our duties and accountability.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by dahfizz on Saturday March 26, 2022 @07:01PM (#30816120)
It's not self evident that virtue _signals_ are evolutionarily advantageous. Actually being virtuous is what provides a benefit to your society / tribe / species.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by anonporridge on Saturday March 26, 2022 @09:13PM (#30816833)
Once a behavior has been socially locked in as "virtuous", then doesn't it create an incentive for individuals to signal that virtue?
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by Scarblac on Sunday March 27, 2022 @06:24AM (#30819164)
Not necessarily, no. Why would it?
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by lossolo on Sunday March 27, 2022 @07:35AM (#30819461)
Maybe because it's perceived as noble thing to do so people would signal that to others as benefit to themselves - to get higher status in a group.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by leaflets2 on Sunday March 27, 2022 @04:14PM (#30823659)
Maybe depends on how dumb the others are -- the easier to fool, the more effective virtue signaling would be?

And, like @Scarblac wrote, sometimes it's a bad idea -- if the others see through it?

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by nine_k on Sunday March 27, 2022 @12:04AM (#30817600)
To reap benefits of cooperation, there is no need to signal it. It still helps the species survive and thrive, even if the only organism aware of an act of cooperation is the one providing help.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by watwut on Sunday March 27, 2022 @07:48AM (#30819520)
People mimic what they see. Seeing other people be helping makes people more helping. Seeing them being selfish makes one more selfish.

That is on of vectors how culture is created.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by magpi3 on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:25PM (#30817464)
> Alternatively, I could also say that the good Samaritan is actually acting in a way that is a detriment to his survival, and only happens because of a bug in his generic and psychological programming or an old beneficial feature that is no longer good for a new environment and will eventually be removed via natural selection.

Evolution does not "work" on behalf of individuals. It works on behalf of species. So if a member of a species is willing to sacrifice himself or take risks for the whole, that is an evolutionary feature not a bug.

If a species were truly focused on the individual, I imagine it would quickly die out, which, let's face it, seems like a threat to our species in our modern world when people choose not to have kids because they don't want the responsibilties involved.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by sailfast on Saturday March 26, 2022 @08:25PM (#30816586)
If the Samaritan had tweeted about how he felt the person really was deserving of help, he would have been signaling. Maybe they scheduled a seminar for their company on how best to help people after having walked by?

But the Samaritan acted. Helped someone. Did a thing.

Action is not signaling. Action is action.

Maybe it helps one’s reputation doing it for the Gram, but you are actually helping another person and that is something.

In this case it was at the cost of their own reputation given how Samaritans were viewed at the time.

The Bible might say that if you are doing it only because of how you feel or what it means reputationally it is not the same as doing it out of compassion alone, but it’s still doing something and different than signaling.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by saghm on Sunday March 27, 2022 @12:15AM (#30817656)
> But the Samaritan acted. Helped someone. Did a thing.

> Action is not signaling. Action is action.

I don't really understand why those would have to be exclusive. I think taking action to help people is important, and if suddenly everyone became aware every time someone helped someone else to the point where it became an expectation, I guess I don't really see why this would be a problem. At the end of the day, if more people are genuinely being helped due to being charitable becoming table stakes, I don't really care whether the help only happened due to ego or due to actual benevolence. I can see it becoming a problem if people weren't actually helping people and only signalling, but I don't really see how that would apply to companies giving people time and space to grieve and then also setting the example for the rest of industry.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by SamBam on Saturday March 26, 2022 @08:39PM (#30816652)
Giving employees time to grieve, cancelling meetings, making space where people can talk -- those are all actions, not a company virtue signaling.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by bsder on Saturday March 26, 2022 @05:13PM (#30815421)
To the person injured, the reason for being helped is less important than the fact that he was HELPED.

Too many people will ignore things like this. Too many people will stand around helplessly--if nothing else, at least call 911. The number of times I have been the first person to actually call 911 at an accident is embarassingly high--I have only ever been the first person on site once. The rest of the time a crowd was gathering but nobody bothered to call 911.

Personally, I'll take help even if they're doing it selfishly. And I'll thank you just the same.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by telesilla on Saturday March 26, 2022 @04:11PM (#30814956)
People forget: in this story, the Samaritans were enemies and known to be hostile. So how is it virtue signaling, to another group of people to whom you don't want to belong? In this story it was an act of altruism.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by nindalf on Saturday March 26, 2022 @05:36PM (#30815579)
The Samaritan knew this was his opportunity to be immortalised in a religious text so he pretended to be extra good. And he nearly got away with it for 2400 years, until all of us in this thread figured it out.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by svachalek on Saturday March 26, 2022 @04:12PM (#30814962)
In an ideal world, the onlookers are secretly good souls, working acts of kindness and charity away from the public eye. In practice, they typically have no virtue to signal, and their comments are merely a variation of "sour grapes".
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by quantified on Saturday March 26, 2022 @05:21PM (#30815488)
‘Tis more blessed to give than to receive.

Means you’re preventing someone from obtaining a blessing if you don’t take their gift. And by definition, it’s less blessed to receive than to give. But if everyone only gives, no one receives, grinds to a halt.

Metrics on virtue make things so difficult.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by Aeolun on Saturday March 26, 2022 @07:17PM (#30816222)
They say that, but what actually bothers them is that it makes them look bad. They might have wanted to help the man, but they all invented reasons not to, because they knew the majority would respond exactly as they did…
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by SamBam on Saturday March 26, 2022 @08:42PM (#30816678)
Precisely. These are the kinds of people who say that buying a more energy-efficient car/biking/eating less meat/volunteering/donating to charity etc is "virtue signaling," because they're just pissed off that it makes them look bad.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by jazzdev on Saturday March 26, 2022 @06:36PM (#30815989)
I don't think of it as virtue signal as much as it is community building, which certainly has a reproductive advantage if the community is stronger because of it.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by philwelch on Saturday March 26, 2022 @08:36PM (#30816639)
Virtue signaling would be if you took a picture of the guy and posted it on social media complaining that such an outcome was possible in this world without doing anything that could actually help.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by ajkjk on Saturday March 26, 2022 @02:52PM (#30814280)
The corporation may not be kind as an entity, but it would be nice if the individual people are.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by trinsic2 on Saturday March 26, 2022 @03:12PM (#30814456)
That's the rub, at least for me. The poster above you is right, corporations are just corporations. If you look up the etymology of the word it comes from latin: corpus (genitive corporis) "body, dead body, animal body.

This is why I think that, more and more, people who have a heart, are moving away from big entities like this. I expect in a couple of generations corporations will be a thing of the past, or something so far removed from society, that it will no longer exist as a social norm.

The biggest problem is not the people, its the amount of people that organize together to make something happen. When you live and work in a sea of people vying for attention, to be seen and heard, there is no possibility of humanity. Its the size that makes or breaks the organization, not the people in it. It breaks accountability and it breaks social connections.

I see smaller organizations all the time that act responsibility. These organizations usually consist of smaller teams. This is the future, a new way of living, small decentralized organizations providing the world with what it needs in a human way.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by thaumasiotes on Saturday March 26, 2022 @03:16PM (#30814502)
> If you look up the etymology of the word it comes from latin: corpus (genitive corporis) "body, dead body, animal body.

You could just shorten this to "body", which has the same range of meanings. If you want to say "corpse" in English or Latin, you can use a more explicit word, but you don't have to.

The idea of "incorporation" is that something comes into existence - that it becomes "corporeal", not "soulless".

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by anonporridge on Saturday March 26, 2022 @03:29PM (#30814612)
> I expect in a couple of generations corporations will be a thing of the past, or something so far removed from society, that it will no longer exist as a social norm.

Alternatively, in a couple of generations, people who have too much heart/soul and can't stomach being part of a corporate machine will be bred out of the gene pool and/or thrust into the powerless underclass, while the psychopaths that have no problem with them will acquire the most resources and reproduce the most, passing on their genes and their way of thinking to their children.

Some might argue this already happened generations ago.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by halfdan on Saturday March 26, 2022 @04:09PM (#30814935)
That's not how reproduction works though. The unprivileged often have more kids and people on the corporate bandwagon tend to have fewer.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by anonporridge on Saturday March 26, 2022 @04:39PM (#30815147)
They're also the first in line to die via disease, famine, and war.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by Kon-Peki on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:21PM (#30834475)
> Don't ever expect a corporation of any kind to act like a human or a family, because it's not, even if they try to put on a humanoid face.

Many years ago, we hired a guy from halfway across the country. For money reasons he left his wife and kids behind and started the job ASAP, with the plan to rent an apartment and go back to get them over a holiday weekend approximately 1 month away.

So he worked with us for about 4 weeks, and then when driving his family here on that holiday weekend they were hit by a drunk driver; he and his wife were killed and the kids needed to be airlifted to a big city hospital.

Our CEO intervened with the insurance companies to backdate everything so his life insurance would pay out and the kids' medical bills would be paid for as long as they needed to be paid. He made sure that the kids got airlifted again - to the hospital nearest to their grandparents, and then said that any employees who wanted to travel to attend the funeral would get paid time off to do so (he went too).

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by alxndr on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @10:13PM (#30850800)
Did the Board of Directors approve all of that?
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by gunapologist99 on Saturday March 26, 2022 @03:04PM (#30814372)
Corporations are like a computer program. Sometimes they act a bit sentient, but mostly they just do what they're told.

The only people who are people are people.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by saghm on Sunday March 27, 2022 @12:08AM (#30817623)
> I personally don't mind it. It's a good reminder that we as individuals are just replaceable cogs in the machine, that all of us are only as valuable as the productivity we can contribute in the future, and that our sense of loyalty to it should be adjusted accordingly.

To the company as a whole, yes. To each other? No, I don't think I believe this. This doesn't mean you owe anything to your teammates in terms of staying in a job if a better opportunity comes or if you aren't happy or treated right, but we're still all human beings seeing each other every day, and if you build a bond with those you work with, it's not any less real just because you only happened to meet due to the coincidence of being hired by the company. I've only been out of college for less than a decade, and I've had some coworkers I did not get along at all with, some who I was indifferent towards, a great many I had casual friendly relationships with, and a select few who are this point are as close to any friends I've met outside work and remained that way after one or both of us moved on from the job where we met. I still don't think I'd be completely emotionally unaffected if someone who I was currently working with in the first two categories happened to die, and I certainly would be if someone I worked with in one of the latter two groups did. It's not at all uncommon to feel grief or numbness when even a casual acquaintance outside of work dies, and the fact that whatever company you work for happens to consider you only a value-generating machine doesn't magically make this go away. Humans are humans even when working together, and I don't think pretending that's not the case is in any way more emotionally healthy than acknowledging it.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by samstave on Saturday March 26, 2022 @06:16PM (#30815871)
I had a colleague die in his cubical at Lockheed...

I was IT director and I had to do a post mortem (no pun intended) about his activities in the facility by checking his badge-ing in and out of various doors to determine the time of death... that was super fn weird.

We were able to determine he went to the break room at ~1am or something, made himself a cup of tea, went back to his cube and died before he even drank his tea.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by sailfast on Saturday March 26, 2022 @08:28PM (#30816603)
Whoa. This sounds really tough and I’m sorry you had to go through that.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by samstave on Saturday March 26, 2022 @09:01PM (#30816769)
I had another colleague at Lockheed that forgot that when he was on VPN, his default printer was an MFP in the office... he *printed* (2AM) out a bunch of gay porn not realizing he was on VPN... yeah that was also super FN weird when HR came to me in the morning and handed me a manila envelope containing said printed out gay porn... and demanded "I NEED TO KNOW WHO PRINTED THIS OUT NOW!"

it was an EVP... married with kids....

He may be dead now but he left lockheed to become a park ranger.

---

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by nomdep on Saturday March 26, 2022 @09:34PM (#30816961)
That’s just gossip and has nothing to do with the theme of the thread
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by samstave on Saturday March 26, 2022 @09:42PM (#30817001)
its not gossip. this literally happened.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by samstave on Saturday March 26, 2022 @09:38PM (#30816982)
oooh I have another lockheed story:

head of HR comes to me with sme issue with her blackberry.. I have her unlock it, and my phone guy is right there as she was claiming some issue...

We open her phone, and the first thing that pops up is a video of her giving the evp of sales a BJ...

my phone guy NOPED THE FUCK OUT ASAP...

that was fun trajectory to manage...

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by synergy20 on Saturday March 26, 2022 @03:16PM (#30814493)
Job places are never your family, it's just a place to make money to keep life going, my take is, don't expect too much from the company you are working at other than paychecks.

instead, building friendship outside of work(if you have friends at work, that's good too), and spending more time with your family,etc. I think this is also called work-life balance.

This does not work for people that needs extra help though, e.g. those who experiences mental illness, depression, down-cycles in life etc. HR and benefit package should have a humane way to do it better, at least, providing free hotline as a medical insurance add-on for all employees.

A good manager should stay aware of personal concerns cautiously in the team other than just checking their agile sprint schedule, it's part of your work. For years that a direct manager never met a key team member, never video chat with him/her, still keeping him as a contractor after 7 years, sorry, I put quite some blame on the manager.

A good manager takes great care of his team, which in the end, will benefit his own boss/company too. Blaming the corporate for your team members' lack of benefit is barking the wrong tree, it's you who did not fight hard enough for your key team members, you're the one should be blamed.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by rhizome on Saturday March 26, 2022 @02:37PM (#30814162)
>I hate, hate, hate the way corps try to brush away any unpleasantness like ignoring it means it didn't happen!

Remember that study that found psychopathic traits in upper management?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackmccullough/2019/12/09/the-p...

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by zdragnar on Saturday March 26, 2022 @03:10PM (#30814437)
Everyone is a bit of a psychopath.

https://youtu.be/xYemnKEKx0c

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by evancoop on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:20AM (#30812602)
During my doctoral years, two students in my department took their own lives (separate events, to be clear). The events themselves were horribly tragic, but the lack of even a clear acknowledgement of the causes of death left a surreal sense of denial.

Mental health is an enormously under-discussed issue in an increasingly digital society that hides suffering in so many of us.

Work becomes an increasingly integral element of our connection to others while certain employment becomes increasingly transactional.

We all can do better. So sorry to read about another human being lost too soon.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by DiggyJohnson on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:33AM (#30812728)
Mental health isn’t underdiscussed, it’s just not discussed seriously enough.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by haswell on Saturday March 26, 2022 @12:29PM (#30813232)
I would argue that it’s both.

It’s not seriously discussed because it’s under-discussed.

I think most people understand the seriousness of cancer, or a heart attack, or other life threatening ailments. They accept that those things are often outside of one’s control, and so there is never any hesitation to take it seriously. When someone in a work setting is diagnosed with something serious, everyone pays attention.

Mental health issues are hard for some people to understand if they haven’t experienced their own challenges. And because it’s not discussed frequently/seriously enough, it’s easy to downplay it or believe that the person struggling can change just by thinking hard enough.

And the people suffering from it don’t feel the same freedom to share those struggles because they’ve also been conditioned by the same collective mindset about mental health and worry what opening up about it will mean for them.

Someone with severe depression who struggles with suicidal ideation has to wonder if people will think less of them, or if they’ll be understand at all. Even though awareness has grown, those old stigmas and default behaviors remain just under the surface.

Someone with a terminal illness will receive an outpouring of support and encouragement.

I’m happy that awareness continues to grow, but there’s a long way to go.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by AussieWog93 on Saturday March 26, 2022 @08:11PM (#30816528)
I would argue it's understood poorly and discussed in an unhelpful way.

My own struggles have taught me that at least in some cases it seems to be more like a "mental obesity" than a "mental disease". It's not necessarily that there's something wrong with the person's brain, but that their depression/anxiety is a perfectly normal reaction to a lifestyle that's toxic.

If you never take the time to do the activities you really, truly enjoy (by this I mean the type of thing where afterwards you feel better and think to yourself "that was great; I'm so glad I took the time out of my day to do that" - not necessarily things that are hyper-engaging), don't eat vegetables and fruit every day, sleep poorly, live alone, don't make the time to socialise with others and are constantly surrounded by a hostile environment (cluttered, tripping over things, disgustingly/unpleasantly unclean sights and smells), then the depression is just a "healthy" response.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by all_factz on Saturday March 26, 2022 @08:40PM (#30816657)
This is a bit of a chicken-or-egg problem. If you’re depressed, you don’t have the energy to do the beneficial things you’re recommending above. So I come back to the idea that you need to look inward, into the core causes of your depression, and make some sort of peace with them — freeing you to move forward. Therapy helps.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by AussieWog93 on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:33PM (#30817486)
>If you’re depressed, you don’t have the energy to do the beneficial things you’re recommending above.

That's just not true. You can't do all of them, of course, but you can take one step at a time over the course of months/years. It's a positive feedback loop that really does help.

>If you’re depressed, you don’t have the energy to do the beneficial things you’re recommending above.

Again, I'm not sure this is true either (at least in the general case). For many people, there's no obvious cause for their depression, but they "just are". There's no peace that needs to be made or trauma that needs integrating, just learning to live life in a way that isn't toxic to your mind.

For me, therapy and mindfulness meditation were both beyond useless.

Learning to stop over-intellectualising everything and implementing strategies to make mundane, day-to-day life more pleasant and wholesome has done wonders.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by all_factz on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:13AM (#30827951)
Fair - people definitely have different paths, and I don’t mean to suggest that therapy is a panacea. I will say however that not all therapy is focused on trauma; it can also address patterns of thought and behavior which are not conducive to your happiness. In short, I think good therapy is often about learning how to have deeper relationships with yourself and with others through being able to practice vulnerability in a safe, controlled environment. That’s helpful to people whether or not they’ve suffered deep trauma, as feeling connected to others is often the first step out of depression.

I agree “just doing stuff” can help to. But for many people, as others have pointed out, such advice is not immediately actionable. People can be made to do stuff, but if they hate doing those things then they’ll still be depressed.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by haswell on Sunday March 27, 2022 @12:14PM (#30821419)
This comment highlights just how different each person’s journey is.

> For many people, there's no obvious cause for their depression, but they "just are"

And for many people, their depression can be traced back to specific events or situations.

Mine: C-PTSD from a pretty screwed up childhood. Most people I know would never know, but I’m working to build an entirely new way to frame the world and my responses to it.

I appreciate that not everyone has the same background, but what I’ve learned through my journey is that there are more people with similar challenges than I ever realized. And in a way that’s the theme of this thread.

> You can't do all of them, of course, but you can take one step at a time over the course of months/years

The key here is the word years. At least for a period of time, one step at a time is mostly indistinguishable from “don’t have the energy to do the beneficial things”.

Yes, one can be making progress, but it often takes some time to see the results.

> Learning to stop over-intellectualising everything

And this characterization of the problem is exactly the kind of undercurrent that continues to stigmatize mental health issues, IMO. “Just stop over intellectualizing everything” is not going to help someone who’s currently “in it”. Certainly not going to help if someone is at the point of being suicidal.

> For me, therapy and mindfulness meditation were both beyond useless.”

And for me, therapy probably saved my life.

> and implementing strategies to make mundane, day-to-day life more pleasant

No offense, but this is “rest of the fucking owl” stuff. I’m pretty sure most people focused on improving their depression want this.

The answer is not just “implement strategies” any more than a novice painter’s journey to master is to “paint better”.

The process is often long, slow, and pretty difficult.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by AussieWog93 on Sunday March 27, 2022 @05:59PM (#30824587)
>And for many people, their depression can be traced back to specific events or situations.

It isn't an either-or situation. As you said, everyone has a different experience.

When I spoke to professionals or listened to others having the "mental health conversation" the focus was entirely on dealing with trauma or, if there was no trauma, taking antidepressants because clearly my brain was broken.

Being told to "draw the rest of the fucking owl" was one of the most eye-opening and empowering things I heard, precisely because the conversation focuses on people with experiences similar to yours.

I was told by society and doctors that I was a victim of my neurochemistry and that could never change. Turns out I was just bad at looking after myself as an adult. I am now less bad at it, and one day hope to even be good.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by freedomben on Saturday March 26, 2022 @01:19PM (#30813559)
> Mental health issues are hard for some people to understand if they haven’t experienced their own challenges.

Bingo. This is the root of the problem IMHO. We're really good at recognizing and empathizing with a gaping physical wound, but if we can't see it/touch it/feel it/etc it's hard to grok.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by hashhar on Saturday March 26, 2022 @04:20PM (#30815018)
Reminds me of this other comment I made on an old thread discussing this point in a way which hopefully others can relate to at-least a bit.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27909275

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by darkwater on Saturday March 26, 2022 @01:56PM (#30813851)
I think the biggest issue comes from thinking that since it's in the mind and not in the body, you can just cure it by yourself: be happy, not depressed! Which is obviously wrong and comes from ignorance.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by s1artibartfast on Saturday March 26, 2022 @02:15PM (#30813996)
As someone who has experienced a lot depression myself and with family, I think the chemical/body mechanism is grossly overstated.

It is a mind problem, but that makes it harder, not easier to address. The only real solution IS "happy, not depressed", but it is terribly difficult to do if you have poor tools and learned patterns.

Medicine can help break up patterns.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by fragmede on Sunday March 27, 2022 @12:30AM (#30817721)
Right. The phrase "it's all in your head" takes on new connotations because hey, guess what, I live in my head 24/7. Yes it is in my head. It's inescapable. Medicine is tools and technology, and it's a wheelchair for the mind's broken legs.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by bckr on Saturday March 26, 2022 @01:05PM (#30813481)
> Even though awareness has grown, those old stigmas and default behaviors remain just under the surface.

This is exactly right. Even in the last few years I feel more understanding about mental health struggles, and I strive to be supportive as well, but even I judge people who take time off for mental health reasons, and I hesitate to tell people about my own struggles.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by quantified on Saturday March 26, 2022 @05:24PM (#30815501)
Taboo/misunderstanding/hangups beget that hesitation, round it goes, sadly.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by tomp on Saturday March 26, 2022 @09:23PM (#30816891)
> it’s easy to downplay it or believe that the person struggling can change just by thinking hard enough.

The reason some of us downplay mental health issues is because we hear stats like "97% kids are ADHD" or "74% of university students are on Ritalin" or "108% of Americans are on anti-depressants and visiting psychiatrists"

"Mental health" (without further qualifications) is closer to herpes than to cancer.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by haswell on Sunday March 27, 2022 @02:33PM (#30822740)
> The reason some of us downplay mental health issues is because we hear stats like "97% kids are ADHD"

Quite frankly, this is a poor excuse. I don't draw sweeping conclusions about "physical health" issues because of cherry picked stats about extremely prevalent physical health issues.

"73% of adult Americans are overweight" doesn't make me downplay physical health across an entire spectrum of issues.

Another conclusion one might draw is "holy shit, this is a crisis!". And there is growing evidence to support this. Humans haven't evolved to deal with the realities of the current century. We're only just starting to understand the impact of modern technology and many other developments of the last decade.

If someone sees a crisis and concludes that this must be something to dismiss, that says more about that person than it does about the crisis.

> "Mental health" (without further qualifications) is closer to herpes than to cancer.

And yet, people still take herpes seriously. People don't just dismiss ailments that aren't cancer.

But there's a more fundamental issue with the entire line of thinking raised by this comment. A key point that many people miss is that mental health and physical health aren’t really two distinct categories at all. The two are deeply intertwined, and usually inseparable.

Who you go to see, or what actions you take when you start to have issues will change, but you also see a dermatologist for skin problems, a cardiologist for heart problems, etc.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by tomp on Sunday March 27, 2022 @02:38PM (#30822792)
I agree, “mental health issues” are much more similar to obesity than to cancer.

Societal reactions reflect that, both dismissive (“just exercise more”, “don’t be lazy”) and constructive (“we should find the cause - is it endocrine disruptors / social media?”)

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by haswell on Sunday March 27, 2022 @03:28PM (#30823247)
> I agree, “mental health issues” are much more similar to obesity than to cancer.

Will you explain how/why you agree with that sentence?

To be clear, nothing in my comments concluded anything close to this. Your agreement is certainly not with me.

If I said “poverty is more similar to overspending than homelessness”, I’d expect someone to tell me this is a meaningless (and ridiculous) comparison, and rightly so.

Such conclusions are not useful, and don’t help anyone involved: not the person struggling, not the person trying to understand the struggle, not the people trying to fix it.

Will you help me understand the point you’re trying to make here? Because it’s unclear.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by sacrosancty on Saturday March 26, 2022 @03:49PM (#30814786)
Depression and suicidal thoughts have a lot of public awareness and sympathy, at least in my country which has had public health campaigns about it. There are still many mental health problems that are stigmatized because they come with behaviors and feelings that are rightly stigamitized in normal people who have the power to not do them. Things like anxiety, anger, violence, inappropriate sexual feelings, and self-pity.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by maleldil on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:54AM (#30812935)
Do you think it wasn't acknowledged specifically because it was suicide, or was it an overall culture of not addressing the cause of death in general? Because the second one sounds fine to me.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by BoorishBears on Saturday March 26, 2022 @01:25PM (#30813603)
How is it fine?

Causes of death are not fungible, dying in a freak accident and dying from suicide in a high pressure setting should not be treated the same.

Especially since we know that suicide can act like a contagion: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK207262/#_sec_0078_ and the demands of the program they were in were almost certainly a factor

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by maleldil on Saturday March 26, 2022 @04:50PM (#30815235)
If it's specifically with suicide, then the company has a stigma with mental health, which is not okay. However, if it's always "teammate died" with no extra information, I can respect it.

Your teammates are not entitled to know your cause of death. That's a personal thing, but you aren't there any more to choose if it's okay to share.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by BoorishBears on Saturday March 26, 2022 @10:46PM (#30817309)
If there's whispers the cat is out of the bag... the most respectful move is to simply address it and extend counseling

Your cause of death isn't a personal thing either by the way, it's a matter of public record in most states (and of course word tends to get out with something as emotional as a death)

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by watwut on Sunday March 27, 2022 @10:38AM (#30820560)
Colleagues are entitled to details of mental health issues nor other issues someone who just killed himself had.

If there is public record, they are entitled to that and nothing more.

The death person and his/her family have their own right to privacy and it trumps curiosity of collegues.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by BoorishBears on Sunday March 27, 2022 @11:33AM (#30821021)
This isn't about the curiosity of collegues??

Again, this isn't some random suicide, these are people in a known high pressure environment already aware this person committed suicide.

The organization can pretend nothing happened (even though everyone already knew), or they can take charge and try and help these people cope with that devastating news and help anyone who might already be in a bad place...

Once you're dead you're dead, that's why causes of death aren't personal... there's no person left.

The organization doesn't even have to frame it in of terms this person's death, just a simple call out that "if anyone is struggling with this loss or needs help come to us".

Anything is better than pretending it didn't happen.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by watwut on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:11AM (#30829250)
Some of those are close people ... others are not. Some might be are bullies who contributed too. That would not be rare either.

> Once you're dead you're dead, that's why causes of death aren't personal... there's no person left.

The family and actually close friends are left. And people who are about to die deserve to know their privacy will remain private too.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by philwelch on Saturday March 26, 2022 @08:40PM (#30816658)
It’s exactly because suicide is socially contagious that it makes sense to stigmatize it and not openly discuss it.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by BoorishBears on Saturday March 26, 2022 @10:49PM (#30817315)
That makes zero sense at all.

People learned this person committed suicide and the organization decided not to address it. That is strictly worse than addressing it no matter how you slice it.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by philwelch on Sunday March 27, 2022 @04:29PM (#30823786)
The organization is liable for their own communications. They aren’t liable for the rumor mill. It doesn’t have to make sense objectively; the organization’s actions only have to make sense from their perspective and incentives.

OTOH, I’ve worked at office buildings that provided a clear view of a jumper, and there were formal communications that counseling was available to anyone who witnessed the jumper and felt they needed it. Which sort of underscored the fact that jumpers in the middle of busy downtown areas aren’t broadly reported to anyone who wasn’t likely to have directly seen them in the first place.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by vlunkr on Saturday March 26, 2022 @10:29AM (#30812109)
Is this the norm? I don't see why they wouldn't at least announce it an email. It's a bit of a weird topic for a work email, but it's certainly better than doing absolutely nothing.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by kn0where on Saturday March 26, 2022 @12:27PM (#30813220)
Yeah, I’ve worked at a couple places where someone died, and it was definitely acknowledged by management and I feel like it would be incredibly weird not to.

At one place, a guy who had left the company a few months prior died in a car crash. The guy had a wife and newborn baby. The CEO shared the news and the company made a contribution to a GoFundMe for the wife and baby. I think the company offered grief counseling.

At another, larger company, someone died shortly after I joined, so I never knew them. We were all notified, once again I think a grief counselor came, and the guy’s desk was left as a memorial until we moved offices a few months later.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by TedDoesntTalk on Saturday March 26, 2022 @12:54PM (#30813401)
Reactions from management and everyone else is typically different for suicides than for car crashes and other causes. In my experience, suicides are hushed and not discussed while car crashes and heart attacks are. It’s a terrible double-standard.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by jouleshey on Saturday March 26, 2022 @01:40PM (#30813738)
It may be because there is evidence that discussing suicide increases the likelihood of more suicides. I'm sure there's more nuance that could be done in theory / I would assume there exists some "right" way to discuss it that may actually be healthier, but it's easier to just look at studies and say best to just avoid it altogether.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK207262

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by tweetle_beetle on Saturday March 26, 2022 @07:04PM (#30816137)
> This evidence is derived from three bodies of research: studies of the impact of media reporting on suicide, studies of suicide clusters, and studies of the impact on adolescents of exposure to a suicidal peer.

It later clarifies that the clustering evidence is only focused on teenagers and young adults.

I would assume that those 3 cases are not applicable to the vast majority of full time working environments. If people are using this study as a reason to avoid discussing death by suicide in the workforce, it's because they just don't want to deal with it. If they were motivated by a higher moral purpose, they could ask for advice from a mental health professional or non-profit.

While there may be some cases where it is the right thing to do, silence by default perpetuates the shame and taboo around the subject which can affect the living and prevent them from seeking support.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by veb on Saturday March 26, 2022 @05:48PM (#30815661)
This is why it's illegal to report deaths as suicides in New Zealand media as well.

https://mentalhealth.org.nz/media/reporting-and-portrayal-of...

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by TedDoesntTalk on Saturday March 26, 2022 @06:57PM (#30816092)
That link says something different: "a description of the death as a suicide before the coroner has released their findings and stated the death was a suicide"
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by veb on Sunday March 27, 2022 @04:30PM (#30823800)
Sorry about that! I should learn to read a bit more. It's very rare you ever see any reporting done on suicides. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/80143183/new-zealand-suicid...

I guess to be safe they sort of publish it without many details. Just "Person found dead at such and such".

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by freedomben on Saturday March 26, 2022 @01:36PM (#30813695)
Same. I don't think it's with mal intent, I think it's the result of a (misguided) attempt to give the passed privacy or spare them the embarrassment/humiliation/stigma that some people (mainly those who have never struggled with depression/suicide) think is attached to it. A good friend of mine committed suicide several years ago, and it was like pulling teeth trying to get somebody to just tell me WTF was going on. The most I could get was "Douglas passed away." Nobody even wanted to say it was a suicide!

We really need to start talking more openly about these things. If your coworker dies in a car crash nobody feels like they can't talk about the car crash or even acknowledge the cause of death. Yet with suicide, nobody wants to say it. The result is even more pain mixed with frustration.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by TedDoesntTalk on Saturday March 26, 2022 @03:00PM (#30814350)
I've had the same experience - when someone passed, no one would tell me the cause of death. I surmised the cause because of that, but never got external confirmation. It was just so ... strange.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by erik_seaberg on Saturday March 26, 2022 @07:28PM (#30816276)
Family and friends can feel blame, or anguish over the suicide being condemned to hell (Catholic doctrine until quite recently), so it might be insensitive to highlight that.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by NAHWheatCracker on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:32AM (#30812712)
Not acknowledging a death is wild, but a lot of organizations normalize only discussing positive project-related accomplishments.

When the day-to-day doesn't address the simple human aspects of work, it becomes even harder to address the difficult aspects.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by catlifeonmars on Saturday March 26, 2022 @02:32PM (#30814111)
This is an interesting take. I strongly suspect you’re right about this, but would like to find more data to support it.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by VariableStar on Saturday March 26, 2022 @10:45AM (#30812276)
I do not know if it is the norm but I have also worked at an organization where one employee committed suicide. Leadership said nothing and everything was toned down. Some people spoke up and complained though. My interpretation is that the response was a combination of culture (although suicide is not "taboo" here it is not a preferred topic) and not wanting to bring undue attention to the organization.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by refurb on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:29AM (#30812686)
What do you mean “said nothing” as in they stopped showing up and management pretended nothing happened?

Or the person died and they didn’t say it was a suicide.

Because if it’s the 2nd, that seems pretty normal. My right to know doesnt trump the family’s right to privacy.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by newaccount74 on Saturday March 26, 2022 @01:23PM (#30813594)
I'd like to think that if you spend 8 hours a day with someone everyday, and suddenly they are gone, it would be a decent thing to tell you what happened to them.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by VariableStar on Saturday March 26, 2022 @01:27PM (#30813616)
Colleagues knew it was suicide and wanted to talk about it. Leadership did not want to discuss the issue. Normal, as you write.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by refurb on Saturday March 26, 2022 @09:58PM (#30817079)
But coworkers could discuss among themselves?

This just seems bizarre to me to expect a special “all hands” session or something to discuss this.

Provide counseling services? Sure.

Put a “how Jimmy died” meeting on everyone’s calendar? That’s odd.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by pc86 on Saturday March 26, 2022 @02:09PM (#30813958)
Framing discussions around cause of death as privacy is a double standard. If you say someone died in a car crash, nobody gasps and tells you to respect the deceased's or their family's privacy. It's so extreme that is anyone even brings up privacy with regard to a death or cause of death everyone assumes they committed suicide, or did something criminal that ended in their death, or something else negative. Cause of death is posted in the newspapers and otherwise discussed in public all the time, there is no right to privacy around that piece of information.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by refurb on Saturday March 26, 2022 @09:57PM (#30817071)
No offense, but when a coworker dies it’s not about you.

When a coworker died at work we usually understood the family was the one that needed support, not us. And if the family asked for privacy, then they got it.

And if any of us needed support, we helped each other. We didn’t need HR to pencil in a meeting.

And no, when someone dies their cause of death is not automatically public and most people (including employers) respect that.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by bqmjjx0kac on Saturday March 26, 2022 @10:42AM (#30812249)
Apathy is the path of least resistance.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by TedDoesntTalk on Saturday March 26, 2022 @12:54PM (#30813407)
Maybe if you are apathetic by nature?
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by 9530jh9054ven on Saturday March 26, 2022 @02:56PM (#30814314)
Depends on the company. I know for a fact that if I died tomorrow, only two people would actually notice at all and neither of them are coworkers.

It doesn't seem particularly helpful to send out a notifications to people other then those that would be affected by having to take on my workload. And what good would come from them being told I was dead vs just left?

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by rvp-x on Saturday March 26, 2022 @05:56PM (#30815714)
Not noticing doesn't mean the world doesn't care. There are a lot of reasons people vanish and it's harder to notice the absence of something than its existence, and people usually vanish for positive reasons, so I think nothing of it. I cried after discovering some people I hadn't known personally but were adjacent to me have died. I didn't notice their absence but I can empathize with the suffering they felt before their death, or the feelings of their family coming to grip with their absence.

While I have a strong emotional reaction to it, I don't think it's a bad thing, it is a part of life and a reminder for me to savor life.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by avgcorrection on Saturday March 26, 2022 @10:32AM (#30812139)
> There's more to being a leader than shipping a volume of features, you are also an important figure in the lives of your team and they need you in a time of crisis.

deleted

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by cookiecaper on Saturday March 26, 2022 @10:50AM (#30812325)
It sounds distasteful only because the vast majority of bosses out there aren't worthy of the mantle. An individual's relationship with their immediate boss is one of those intimate things in life and it deserves sanctity.

Help your people and don't be a dick and you'll be amazed at the bounty of unearned gratitude that comes back around -- and often not just once, but continuing for years. Being a good boss is "the gift that keeps giving" to good bosses everywhere.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by tonyarkles on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:25AM (#30812637)
I’m not saying this as any kind of brag. To be honest, I ended up as a manager by accident and when the team grew too much I found someone else to do it. I still work at the company and come by to help the team out once in a while. That shift happened about 6 months ago.

My wife caught COVID last month while I was out of town. Since I continued testing negative, we decided that I would stay at the farm until either I tested positive or she tested negative. I posted a message on Slack explaining where I was and why, just as a “why is Tony joining all meetings remote this week” kind of update.

Immediately, three of my previous reports reached out directly to let me know that they were more than happy to drop off anything she might need: groceries, medication, Dairy Queen, anything. That is the kind of relationship a manager/leader and their reports can have. We’ve never really done much outside of work socially. We do the odd team dinner to mark special occasions. Two of them have had car trouble and are handy but didn’t have the tools they needed; I had the tools (tubing bender for a brake line, electric impact for getting a stuck bolt out) and dropped those off on the weekend.

The big dance I have always tried to do is make us into a team that always has each other’s back. I’ve made it clear that sometimes The Business wants us to do weird things that don’t always make sense and we’ve gotta just do it, but in general I’m doing my best to shield them from nonsense and help make sure we’ve got an environment where everyone can do their best work.

I dunno, it was all an experiment and it seems to have worked out.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by maleldil on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:52AM (#30812914)
I think some of that is a lot harder to when remotely, though. You can't do team dinners, and the alternatives feel forced to me. It's also a lot harder to socialise with people that you only interact with a few times a day (if you're asynchronous) because they don't feel like a part of your life like in-personal colleagues would. So it ends up being a very I'm impersonal relationship.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by TedDoesntTalk on Saturday March 26, 2022 @12:57PM (#30813420)
I agree but have found turning on the camera and keeping it on for most meeting does help.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by mrtranscendence on Saturday March 26, 2022 @01:25PM (#30813607)
During the time of COVID I've had two jobs, one where the culture is (usually) to keep the cameras on at all times, and one where the culture was to keep the cameras off even when speaking.

There are benefits to the latter approach ... I could futz around on my phone in particularly boring or useless meetings. But keeping the cameras on does make connections feel more personal and overall I prefer it, particularly for small meetings.

Plus, everyone gets to see my dogs roughhousing in the background.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by lostcolony on Saturday March 26, 2022 @02:11PM (#30813968)
>> I could futz around on my phone in particularly boring or useless meetings.

The fact those meetings are occurring is a failure of the culture, and especially the move to WFH. It's been the key differentiator for me post-COVID; companies that are begrudgingly remote try to keep the office norms in place, just now remote, vs the companies embracing remote finding new workflows, which means leaning on async communication, collaborative documents, etc, instead of meetings, and synchronous meetings only when absolutely necessary.

And it's been eye opening; in those former cases, no one wanted "social" Zoom meetings, myself included. But in those latter, people asked about it, championed it happening, etc.

People only have so much time they want to be in meetings online, and making sure it's used to build team bonds, instead of squandered on business problems that could be solved other ways, seems like a huge part of making remote be successful.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by maleldil on Sunday March 27, 2022 @02:43PM (#30822834)
I mostly agree, but I have some resistance to those "social" meetings. I'd rather spend that time working, and I'd never take a social call like that outside of work hours, like I see it happen in other companies.

A significant component of that is that my only work experience is in a fully remote team of varying time zones. I imagine that changes the perspective of how these things should go compared to someone who's used to the social interactions of the office.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by gotbeans on Saturday March 26, 2022 @05:48PM (#30815668)
I might be off here, but I have only been able to feel this sports-like team behaviour in actual sports teams when no money is involved; where everybody tries to be the best and at the same time help their peers to be their best, for no actual personal gain or interest.

On the professional world, where money and titles are put on the head of people, things hardly ever go that way, I believe for many reasons but mainly due to competitivity.

Regardless, really happy to hear your experience and story. I'd love to be at an actual team as you put it.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by avgcorrection on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:50AM (#30812896)
Of course this looks like the fruits of your leadership (“not to brag”) from your perspective. On the other hand it can look different from the other side when you see your peers jump at the opportunity to please the boss.

As long as one is the person with the authority in a relationship one cannot really know which option it is.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by absurddoctor on Saturday March 26, 2022 @12:22PM (#30813167)
There might be merit to this in general. But in this specific case the person is no longer in authority so it doesn’t seem to apply.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by tonyarkles on Sunday March 27, 2022 @04:07PM (#30823587)
Yeah, that was the part that really gave me pause. While there was always a clear "I'm the guy that you have to listen to" relationship when I ran the team, there wasn't ever, from what I could tell at least, any real attempt by anyone to try to suck up or anything. And now, they've got their own manager to try to suck up to if they want to, but the new guy seems to have a similar style as me (he was the senior-most person on the team when I left).

The other piece is that this team has done this kind of stuff in the past for each other. As an example, one guy blew a timing belt on the highway about 150km out of the city (on Sunday night coming back to town for work Monday morning). Two of the other people on the team loaded up tools into their truck and drove out to meet him, try to see if they could fix the car on the side of the road, and when they realized they couldn't they towed it away from the road and gave him a ride back to town.

I mean, I could be misreading this, but it seems like I, without really knowing what I was doing, put together a really tightly gelled team that jumps at the opportunity to help each other out. And in the process, I guess I got to be a part of that even after I left.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by treis on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:28AM (#30812671)
>An individual's relationship with their immediate boss is one of those intimate things in life and it deserves sanctity.

I think there's a fundamental divide between people. Some see the workplace and the people in it as an integral part of their life. Others see it as a place they spend 40 hours a week that enables them to live their actual life. Neither are wrong and I think a lot depends on the type of company you work for. For me personally there's nothing intimate or sanctified about my relationship with my boss.

But I do agree with your general point. Being someone's boss can have a large impact on their life. I'd reach for terms like responsible, ethical, or kind.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by sinsterizme on Saturday March 26, 2022 @03:50PM (#30814789)
I’m of the former opinion and it boggles the mind a bit thinking that some people view the place they spend the majority of their waking hours as ancillary to their “real life.” Maybe my real life is just boring though :p
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by emerged on Saturday March 26, 2022 @06:43PM (#30816028)
I felt it was part of my real life. But after leaving the first company (then each subsequent company) I almost never saw any of them again.

People put on a polite friendly face at work, but that doesn’t mean they’re your intimate friends. Sometimes, but I think it’s not so common as you’re implying.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by noisy_boy on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:39PM (#30817500)
For me, the definition of what is "real" is: will I continue to be engaged if I didn't have to, e.g., if I was free of my need to work. My boss doesn't fall in that category, my friends (childhood / some good friends I made in my career) do. Is it possible to have a great boss who you can also consider a friend/mentor well after you are not working for them? Definitely, but that doesn't happen that often. So in absence of having that kind of relationship, yes, they are ancillary to my real life. How much time I spend with them in the work setting has nothing to do with it.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by avgcorrection on Saturday March 26, 2022 @05:13PM (#30815420)
Of course it is part of my real life. Doesn’t mean that I necessarily like it, though. And I would be doing something else if I could. (Don’t tell my boss^W^W my noble leader though.)
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by avgcorrection on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:42AM (#30812836)
The first option is a subjective view that some people might have. The second option is a bare fact for most people.
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by treis on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:49AM (#30812887)
"live their actual life" is a subjective view. For lots of people what they do at work is part of their core identity and an integral part of their "actual life".
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by avgcorrection on Saturday March 26, 2022 @11:54AM (#30812933)
Sure. I was of course referring to the fact that they have to work in order to survive.

And once you have to do that it might be prudent to let it become a part of your identity. It is after all something that you have to do for half of your waking time outside of weekends and vacations.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by idontknowifican on Saturday March 26, 2022 @10:37AM (#30812185)
this isn’t work related, this is human meeds and suffering. i understand management is ass, don’t become an ass yourself
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by avgcorrection on Saturday March 26, 2022 @10:44AM (#30812257)
> this isn’t work related,

So give them time off to grieve.

Once you say that “they need you [the manager] in a time of crisis” you are putting the tragedy in a work-related context. The crux of the issue is the tragedy that happened. Not how the supposed leader responds to it.

The worker bees can get space to grieve alone or among their peers.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by pbourke on Saturday March 26, 2022 @01:00PM (#30813448)
> Once you say that “they need you [the manager] in a time of crisis” you are putting the tragedy in a work-related context.

Sometimes all that’s needed is for the manager to not be a giant fucking dick.

My aunt passed away a few years ago, and I took a few days off work to go to her funeral (a few hundred miles away).

When I mentioned that I was going to take a few days bereavement leave, my manager at the time responded by rules lawyering whether the death of an aunt qualified under the company’s bereavement policy (it did). He otherwise said all the right things, but that’s what I remember nearly 10 years later.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by eyelidlessness on Saturday March 26, 2022 @12:07PM (#30813062)
Several years ago, I lost a friend to cancer. He had previously worked on my team, and was well liked there. My boss at the time, who I adored and still do, hadn’t known him as well but understood that his death devastated to me.

I came in on a Saturday to let the team know of his passing, and to work. We had scheduled a weekend hackathon—if I recall, this had been my idea originally.

My boss, very sincerely concerned, asked me, “why are you here? You can go home.” I told him there’s no where else I’d rather be. That wasn’t only because he was such a great boss, but that was a large contributing factor. He kindly, gently said he understood and that I should stay and contribute whatever felt comfortable and leave whenever that felt like what I needed. That didn’t make mourning feel any less difficult, but it made me feel like I was right that work was where I needed to be that day.

My point is not that this is the form all leadership should take. It’s true that giving people time off to mourn is almost definitely the best default. But there is a compassionate kind of leadership that can be this welcoming and compassionate comforting.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by wccrawford on Saturday March 26, 2022 @02:56PM (#30814318)
My limited experiences of grief has shown that I react largely the same way at first, and then later probably need that time off. So I'd rather come in and get some work done until things really hit home, and then take that time. Others clearly need the time right away instead.

I think a lot of people still don't realize that everyone deals with emotions differently, even though they've been told that a lot in the last few decades, and perhaps a lot longer.

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by eyelidlessness on Saturday March 26, 2022 @07:55PM (#30816447)
Yeah I react similarly to what you describe, and if I recall I did take some time off to grieve later.

And yes, I agree that a lot of people have trouble recognizing different ways people process emotions. It’s been a persistent thing in my life, I’m well over in the differently column for a lot of people (ADHD/autistic).

Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by avgcorrection on Saturday March 26, 2022 @05:08PM (#30815387)
That was the right move by them. But I can’t say that it takes much compassion to in order to allow/remind an employee that they don’t have to work on a Saturday (hackaton).
Re:Mourning loss as a remote team by eyelidlessness on Saturday March 26, 2022 @07:50PM (#30816410)
The compassionate part was being emotionally receptive to hear and understand why I wanted to be there in the first place despite it not being his instinct about what I needed, to trust me that I knew what would be best for me, and to gently remind me—without pressure—that it would be okay if what I needed changed. I understand that’s a bunch of emotional nuance, which may still not come across. But that nuance can be really hard for even close friends to get right when the other (or both) are grieving.

If he had merely offered to let me go home—or, worse for me, insisted—I would agree that it wasn’t particularly noteworthy as far as compassion goes.