News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by technothrasher on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @02:57PM (#30689474)
Does this mean that I will no longer be able to smugly remind people that there is only one 's' in "daylight saving time"? It was really the only reason I could see for keeping the biannual time change around.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by thehappypm on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:07PM (#30689708)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time

I mean, “Daylight savings time” is a commonly used term. At some point it just becomes accepted as a valid alternative.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by clessg on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:30PM (#30690192)
> I mean, “Daylight savings time” is a commonly used term. At some point it just becomes accepted as a valid alternative.

Irregardless, "daylight saving time" is the only cromulent term, we must stop embiggening peoples' vocabularies with alot of fake words!

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by maxk42 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:35PM (#30690298)
Shouldn't that be "daylight saving's time"? As in "the time of daylight saving".
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by Clubber on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:46PM (#30690468)
> Irregardless

I see what you did there.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by ant6n on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:10PM (#30689774)
It depends on whether you have a prescriptive or descriptive view of the language. Usually, smug people who enjoy correcting other’s speech lean prescriptive.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by BoiledCabbage on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:24PM (#30690039)
Even though the prescriptive view is wrong people still have it? ;)

I'd love for one of them to show the original centuries old definition of English that they are prescribing from.

Or put another way, if the prescriptive view is nothing but a descriptive view of language from a few decades back then essentially you have a descriptive view that tries to ignore that time isn't constant.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by thereddaikon on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:40PM (#30690372)
I'm not a fan of a prescriptive view of language. But at the same time I'm also not a fan of letting morons decide the course of things. Just because people use phrases wrong, or can't be bothered to learn how to spell doesn't mean the "correct" spelling should just change to accommodate them. Why doesn't everyone else get a vote? Otherwise what's the point of spell checkers, or dictionaries, or English class at all?

Having a standard to hold our selves to is not having a prescriptive approach to language. Prescriptive language is what the French do. They have a government office that decides the official rules of French and official documents have to follow them. For example, even though everyone calls a Computer a Computer pretty much everywhere in the world with variation on spelling, the French government has to call it an ordinateur.

The point of language is to facilitate communication. To do so there needs to be a standard. You don't have to legally enforce it, it should be voluntary. Freedom of speech and all that. But I reject the copout that "language evolves, deal with it".

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by CRConrad on Thursday March 17, 2022 @12:14PM (#30712765)
> Even though the prescriptive view is wrong people still have it? ;)

Yup. Some of us do so quite consciously and intentionally, and knowing it is doomed to fail -- so, if you will, quixotically[1].

"Why on Earth would you want to do that?", I hear you ask. I'm glad you did -- let me explain: It's a delaying defence, intended to slow down the enem^W speed of change. We see that slowing down as a good thing, because it increases intelligibility over time. You, as a speaker of English, can with some effort read and understand Shakespeare and (hiss rough contemporary) the King James translation of the Bible... But not much further back; Chaucer is a struggle, and Beowulf just gibberish to you. Icelanders, OTOH, have no more problems with the Viking sagas, written down about the time of Chaucer, than you do with Shakespeare; and had they any litterature written down in the time of Beowulf, I'd imagine it would be no worse for them than Chaucer is for you. To Swedes, on the other other hand, the writings of Gustav II Adolf (not to mention the chronicles of his grandfather Gustaf I Vasa's historian) are Chaucer-level difficult even though they're from about the time of Shakespeare (or less than a century before); actual Chaucer-era writings like the medieval laws of king Magnus are Beowulf-level gibberish; nineteenth-century poetry -- heck, even the 1917 Bible or the prose of Strindberg, who IIRC died just a few years before that translation! -- seem to be as hard to grasp as Shakespeare is to you.

And this shit seems to just be accelerating; kids nowadays have a hard time not just with Strindberg, but with novels I enjoyed in my youth -- written in the 1940s, -60s, or even later! So, in the hope that my grandkids (if ever I have any) will understand what the heck I'm saying to them and I what they're telling me, I fight this hopeless rearguard action, willingly sacrificing myself to the slings and arrows of mindlessly laissez-faire anti-prescriptivists for the greater good of mankind.

So slowing Swedish down to the rate of decay--eh, development -- of English is my primary goal. But, hey, while I'm at it anyway, why not try to improve the cross-time communication power of English, too?

There, hope that answers your questions?

___

[1]: Except I guess the Knight of La Mancha didn't know that last bit. Unless, I guess, if you want to argue that deep down he really had to know that all along.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by yreg on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:29PM (#30690175)
There are objectively prescriptive (codified) languages.

In Slovakia we have laws giving a certain public institution the responsibility to define what are the proper rules to use the language, including maintaining the dictionary of all the allowed words and their meanings.

Anything beyond that (with the exception of e.g. scientific terms) is objectively incorrect slovak.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by fuzzer37 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:41PM (#30690394)
And yet that's still not how languages actually work.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by yreg on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:55PM (#30690607)
Why not?
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by qubitcoder on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @02:09AM (#30695826)
Languages aren't logical pre-determined constructions (unless they're intentionally designed, such as Esperanto).

Humans create languages. And they constantly change and evolve, including new words, letters, grammar, etc. Consider Old English versus Modern English [0]. Or even software companies that have become nouns or verbs in common parlance (e.g. "to google").

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by fuzzer37 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @06:44PM (#30692932)
Have you never made up a new word or colloquialism among friends?
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by Brian_K_White on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:18PM (#30689928)
I will take those smug corrections over letting "literally" happen.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by singingboyo on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:23PM (#30690022)
That's just like, literally your opinion, man.

I get it, sort of. In that case I just tell myself "it's hyperbole for lazy people" and move on. "Could care less", though, that one I cannot reconcile.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by jazzyjackson on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:34PM (#30690274)
I reckon there's an implied sarcasm of "As If", that is: "as if I could care any less"
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by sundarurfriend on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:51PM (#30690556)
This is going to be my headcanon for why people do this (though it's more likely laziness/carelessness). This usage seems to be becoming more and more common, so this will help me pretend it makes sense and move on.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by dllthomas on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @06:28PM (#30692771)
I like "I could care less. [In theory.]"
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by jhedwards on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:28PM (#30690133)
I'll take the bait here and be the one to point out that the usage of literally to mean "figuratively" is recorded in dictionaries at least 100 years old, and there are probably even older examples of that usage.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by tsimionescu on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:41PM (#30690390)
Literally doesn't mean "figuratively". It either means "literally", or it is used for emphasis, like "really" or "deeply" etc. But it is never used with the express purpose of meaning "figuratively", i.e. "not literally".

That is, no one is saying "I am literally dying to know" to try to communicate the fact that they are not, in fact, dying to know. Instead, the difference between "I am dying to know" and "I am literally dying to know" is one of emphasis. The second is almost perfectly equivalent to "I am really dying to know" or "I am very much dying to know".

By contrast, "I am figuratively dying to know" would imply that you are specifically not dying to know, which everyone understands perfectly well.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by Brian_K_White on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:56PM (#30690635)
"That is literally insane."

What have I just said?

If only we had a word whose express purpose was to avoid ambiguity for those times when it matters to communicate without ambiguity...

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by dllthomas on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @06:25PM (#30692739)
"You left me waiting for days."

What have I just said?

If the context is that it's been a handful of minutes, we don't say my usage is wrong; we definitely don't say that "sometimes days means minutes" and fret about how anyone will communicated time. We say that sometimes people exaggerate.

You can still object, if you wish, on stylistic grounds. You can object that you'd prefer we keep "literally" apart from some standard uses of words lest we allow inappropriate ambiguity. But none of that means anyone is using "literally" to mean "figuratively".

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by tsimionescu on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @04:51PM (#30691518)
There's no such thing as communication without ambiguity while using natural language. In your particular example, any interpretation depends crucially on what "that" might be referring to. It could refer to an animal, in which case you may mean that it seems to be suffering from a mental illness (maybe it has rabies) OR that it is unable to think clearly (it is insane with hunger, or excitement). It could be referring to an action, which may mean that it is either the action of someone suffering from a mental illness, or the action of someone being temporarily unable to think clearly, or it is an absurd action.

These are all literal meanings of insane. Of course, if we add figurative meanings we can increase the ambiguity further.

However, your criticism applies similarly to words like "truly" - if I say "that is truly insane", do I mean that it is insane in one of the literal senses of the word? Or the figurative uses? Am I just emphasizing either of these meanings, or do I feel a need to confirm that I am not lying?

Either way we take it, though, "literally" can never be replaced with "figuratively" without altering the meaning of a phrase. In it's use as an intensifier, it does NOT mean "figuratively", it means "very".

Also, looking on Merriam-Webster, they clearly discuss this and reach the same conclusion. They also mention that this meaning for emphasis appears as early as the 18th century, in the works of Charlotte Brontë, James Joyce, Mark Twain.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by mark-r on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:39PM (#30690358)
Is that literally true?
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by tsimionescu on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:46PM (#30690474)
That is a silly position. "Literally" has become an intensifier, like so many other words in the English language. It is no different from "truly" or "verily" or "really", and the path it took from its literal meaning to its intensifier status is identical.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by newaccount74 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:25PM (#30690085)
It kinda makes sense that literally means figuratively, an alliteration to literature, where things often aren't meant literally either.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by biztos on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:31PM (#30690206)
Like for reals? Because culture.

(I’m also wishing the horde off my lawn but they may have already won.)

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by SllX on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:26PM (#30690099)
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by jazzyjackson on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:32PM (#30690236)
is being ironic not permissiable in this prescriptivist future of yours?
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by rgrieselhuber on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:12PM (#30689816)
Very true. Although there still is no ‘x’ in espresso.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by tedunangst on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:18PM (#30689936)
Of course there is. Expresso, from the Latin expressus, meaning squeezed.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by mwcremer on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:18PM (#30689947)
Its definately a loosing battle.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by newaccount74 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:27PM (#30690127)
My kids call a short coffee a nespresso, not sure if that's better than expresso.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by nr2x on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:28PM (#30690140)
Somebody once said to me “you can’t just make up your own words!”

I asked where, exactly, the words we have came from?

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by ant6n on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:12PM (#30691767)
From other people who perhaps were allowed to make up words!
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by biztos on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:28PM (#30690155)
I just grit my teeth and remind myself how exclusive is the club of believers in English Logic.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by johnboiles on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @02:59PM (#30689520)
This is HN, plenty of ways to be smug around here
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by Razengan on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:28PM (#30690141)
You forgot a full stop 8^)
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by fingerlocks on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:37PM (#30690325)
Also "Orders of Magnitude" especially when it's not

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by munk-a on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:05PM (#30689675)
Stop dreaming - we didn't allow that level of pedantry even when DST was a thing. "Daylight savings time" might be an eggcorn - but it's more accepted in conversation than "daylight saving time" at this point.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by CoastalCoder on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:23PM (#30690017)
I have an armchair-theory that different pronunciations require different amounts of work, and that the less-effort versions win over time. Particularly certain transitions from one syllable to the next.

Maybe not a great example, but "savings-time" seems to require slightly less work than "saving-time". At least for me.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by munk-a on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:31PM (#30690202)
As uh bahn an bread Bahstunian I'd ahgue dat reginal dieuhlecks ken cause ovahuhl drifs in prahnunciashen ohvah time. Baht thas jus me. Diffrin fraysus will folluh da culltrull kahntexts dey ehmehged frahm.

I think you're mostly right though.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by exegete on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:23PM (#30690023)
Now when people write the time in the format 9:00 EST you can smugly correct them that it should always be EDT (for Eastern time zone).
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by schoen on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:35PM (#30690286)
Maybe the legislators will make things even more confusing by defining daylight time as "standard time"! (Because it will be the, well, standard time.)
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by exegete on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:42PM (#30692171)
Someone linked to the bill and it actually does that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30689043&p=4#30690481
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by mark-r on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:44PM (#30690433)
If the bill is already passed it would be too late, unless it goes to committee to reconcile with the house. Or maybe they've already done it!
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by thereddaikon on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:45PM (#30690453)
Ah yes, Eastern Dtime Tzone.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by ryanmcbride on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:45PM (#30690455)
Don't worry I'm sure you can find something else to be pendantic about
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by melling on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:21PM (#30689988)
Anyway, now you can help stop people from sayings “anyways”
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by omgwtf1000 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:48PM (#30690497)
Haha, one of my favorites too. Another one is Driver License.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by dexterdog on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:24PM (#30690057)
Don't worry. You still have hot water heaters.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by giantg2 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:37PM (#30690326)
Could affect people with direct solar hot water heaters.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by dexterdog on Thursday March 17, 2022 @06:22PM (#30716533)
You missed the joke.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by johnwalkr on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:29PM (#30690162)
day light’s saving’s time
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by dheera on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:04PM (#30689633)
"making daylight savings time permanent"

Isn't that just changing the time zone and abolishing daylight savings?

"Senate votes"

What does this mean? Does it take effect forever starting from today? Does Senate have authority to actually enact the change or is that some other dude that actually flips the lever?

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by tastyfreeze on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:09PM (#30689756)
Senate is only half of the legislature. Nothing becomes law until it has passed both houses of Congress and is signed by the president.

Schoolhouse Rock - Bill https://youtu.be/OgVKvqTItto

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by mbg721 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:15PM (#30689875)
This is all well and good until executive orders become involved.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by wolverine876 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:49PM (#30690523)
Executive orders are only the use of powers given the the President previously by Congress or, through the Constitution, the people. The President has no other powers.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by AdamH12113 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:17PM (#30689909)
The U.S. has a bicameral legislature and a presidential veto, so the House of Representatives would also have to vote for the same bill, then the president would have to sign it. According to the text of the bill[1], it would take effect immediately, but there would be no practical effect until November 6, when DST is scheduled to end.

[1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623...

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by jrapdx3 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:56PM (#30690644)
True, that's the normal process but if the President vetoes the bill Congress can override the veto by 2/3 majority in both chambers.

IIRC the Senate passed the bill unanimously. If the House passes the bill by a large majority it predicts a veto would be overridden. In such cases even if inclined to veto, the President typically acknowledges defeat and signs the bill into law.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by exegete on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:14PM (#30689855)
>Isn't that just changing the time zone and abolishing daylight savings?

Yes but the clocks will now say EDT instead of EST (in the Eastern time zone for example). We will forever know that we have saved the daylight.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by cmurf on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:47PM (#30690481)
I don't think so...

Original text for the zones: http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:15%20section:2...

Bill amending that law: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/t...

It's redefining the offsets from UTC for the zones, for standard time. And also repeals all of 15 USC 260a http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:15%20section:2... a.k.a. Section 3 of the Uniform Time Act of 1966. Ergo, the 'D' in all the time zones goes away.

Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by exegete on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:40PM (#30692153)
Oh wow it really is just redefining standard time as DST
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by ss108 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:10PM (#30689787)
House has to vote on it and POTUS has to sign.
Re:US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time... by boffinism on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:06PM (#30689689)
"just"