News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Psychological Operations by boston_clone on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @07:31PM (#30535498)
> How much warfare is currently happening on social media sites, nationally operated or otherwise?

Plenty. Likely more than you or even I realize. That said...

> Are sites like 4chan, facebook, reddit or twitter very influenced by governmental PsyOp operations, national or foreign?

Foreign gov't, certainly. Ours? As honestly as I can claim, I never knew of any Psyop folks conducting operations on those sites, nor did I ever hear of any directives for Psyop folks to use those platforms as viable mediums.

US citizens are eternally out of scope for Army psychological operations, but I have almost no experience with influence operations conducted by a few Virginia-based agencies. Not saying CIA or NSA do such things, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were.

> one of the most successful PsyOp propaganda tactics is that of controlled dissent

I would mildly disagree here. Personally, in-group / out-group mentality is the easiest to manufacture and exploit, and serves as a fantastic emotional distraction from other areas.

Re:Psychological Operations by twic on Thursday March 03, 2022 @06:03AM (#30539503)
> Ours? As honestly as I can claim, I never knew of any Psyop folks conducting operations on those sites

I guess Reddit users in 2013's "most addicted city", Eglin Air Force Base, were just really keen on posting photos of cool leaves they found:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160604042751/http://www.reddit...

Re:Psychological Operations by na85 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @08:36PM (#30536008)
>Personally, in-group / out-group mentality is the easiest to manufacture and exploit, and serves as a fantastic emotional distraction from other areas.

My personal conspiracy theory is that the current shit storm of identity politics is the product of exactly this sort of psyop.

Re:Psychological Operations by raffraffraff on Friday March 04, 2022 @03:06AM (#30551954)
That conspiracy theory could be accurate, but humans are perfectly suited to lapping up tribal shit. You don't need to do any serious work after casually throwing a landmine into a peaceful debate. Social media is the worst drug.
Re:Psychological Operations by throwaway10242 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @09:09PM (#30536250)
That's an evidenced conspiracy. Check out Space Communes "Will the revolution be funded?" It is a research piece about think thanks that do exactly this, although it focuses on the "leftist" liberal ones there are also the right wing, conservative or libertarian ones to play as the counter strike to these. Creating a cycle of culture war that serves to distract the population from more pressing perspectives.
Re:Psychological Operations by Kretinsky on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @10:13PM (#30536697)
> US citizens are eternally out of scope for Army psychological operations

When did you quit the force? Targeting US citizens has been allowed for almost 10 years, now.

Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/us-domestic-propaganda-offic...

Re:Psychological Operations by wahern on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @10:52PM (#30536959)
Per the article: "BBG spokeswoman Lynne Weil... stressed to Business Insider that the BBG is separate from Pentagon Information Operations (IO)."

Also, from the actual legislation: "(a) IN GENERAL.--No funds authorized to be appropriated to the Department of State or the Broadcasting Board of Governors shall be used to influence public opinion in the United States." https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BILLS-112hr5736ih/pdf/BI...

AFAICT, the intention and purpose behind the law was to permit domestic distribution of material published overseas. Otherwise, there'd be no simple way for Americans to actually see and discuss the substance of our own propaganda.

Re:Psychological Operations by mike_d on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:31AM (#30538179)
That is a load of FUD someone fed you. All that really changed was that US funded media like Voice of America wasn't explicitly blocked in the US.

VoA produces pro-US view point media in 46 languages. The most extreme thing they do is air a ton of classes on learning English and broadcast into other countries that don't want it.

Re:Psychological Operations by wil421 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @05:49AM (#30539435)
Your only source is business insider?
Re:Psychological Operations by User23 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @11:09PM (#30537068)
> Personally, in-group / out-group mentality is the easiest to manufacture and exploit, and serves as a fantastic emotional distraction from other areas.

Well somebody is running massive psyops on the American public then.

Re:Psychological Operations by obscurette on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:12AM (#30537757)
We in the Baltic states near Russia are observing a massive shift of antivax, alternative medicine etc influencers, who have been exploiting this "us vs them" so successfully during last years, into Russian war propagandists.
Re:Psychological Operations by saiya-jin on Thursday March 03, 2022 @05:55AM (#30539467)
Not only you, Slovakia, Czech republic, Poland, Hungary and I am sure Romania, Bulgaria etc. All west flanks of Russian's wanna be new empire. To me those were clearly FSB (or related) psy-ops, pretty successful ones. 101 on how to weaken state and public discussions.

Coupled with support of political parties / celebrities who very uncritically support anything pro-russian and fiercely attack anything else. Luckily, Putin managed to demolish most of it in couple of days.

Re:Psychological Operations by HWR_14 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:27AM (#30537838)
Well, yeah. It's pretty obvious that Russian troll farms have been running massive psyops. But beyond that, psyops that generate anger with ingroup/outgroup mentality drive eyeballs, and that means profit. There were reports about troll farms in the 2016 election, I think in Albania or the Balkans, that made a fortune making up us-vs-them stories on both sides.
Re:Psychological Operations by User23 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @09:09AM (#30541207)
The abject failure of Russian propaganda in the West during the current conflict renders the notion of Russia having any sort of more than trivial shit stirring capability implausible, if not outright risible.
Re:Psychological Operations by HWR_14 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:04PM (#30544404)
If you look at the rapid change in some points of view in the West, it shows how widespread Russian propaganda is/was.

When the invasion was launched, there was a huge pro-Putin contingent in the US who said it was justified. You can also look historically at how well it worked in Russia's other wars of aggression over the past decade. The fact that it was not able to overcome the images coming out of Ukraine is kinda irrelevant.

Re:Psychological Operations by wolverine876 on Friday March 04, 2022 @12:43AM (#30551104)
One failure doesn't invalidate years of work and mountains of evidence.
Re:Psychological Operations by mistermann on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:53AM (#30540986)
> It's pretty obvious that Russian troll farms have been running massive psyop

Alternatively, this narrative is a massive psyop.

Re:Psychological Operations by bilbo0s on Thursday March 03, 2022 @09:41AM (#30541616)
Everyone should be sober, dispassionate, and to the extent that it's possible, take off any ideological blinders.

It's clearly more likely than not that both are true.

Re:Psychological Operations by mistermann on Saturday March 05, 2022 @03:23PM (#30571521)
> It's clearly more likely than not that both are true.

Very few people seem to have the ability to realize this, on certain topics. It is a major bug in evolved consciousness.

Re:Psychological Operations by HWR_14 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:42PM (#30544923)
I don't know why people should be dispassionate. Unbiased, sure. Dispassionate, not so much.
Re:Psychological Operations by wolverine876 on Friday March 04, 2022 @12:44AM (#30551111)
Passion seems to work against reason and facts - in fact, it's key to psyop manipulation, afaik.
Re:Psychological Operations by faeriechangling on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:42AM (#30538251)
Some example tweets from Russian troll farms around the time of the 2018 measles outbreak https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/

pro-vax:

#VaccinateUS You can’t fix stupidity. Let them die from measles, and I’m for #vaccination!

#vaccines cause autism—Bye, you are not my friend anymore. And try to think with your brain next #VaccinateUS

anti-vax:

Dont get #vaccines. Iluminati are behind it. #VaccinateUS

Did you know there was a secret government database of #vaccine-damaged children? #VaccinateUS

I wonder what sort of bad actors were behind the divisiveness we saw over COVID. It's absurd how quickly that became such a partisan political issue when it was so self-evident that making it a partisan issue would kill people. It seems you can make any issue into a partisan issue these days, you just need to convince some suckers to believe the other side made it a partisan issue, and they'll make it into a partisan issue.

Re:Psychological Operations by 99_00 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @03:12AM (#30538446)
If Russia was able to create division, why are they so bad at it when it matters - now.

Those examples seem low quality.

The election interference from 2016 is laughable.

https://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/171101163247-russ...

Re:Psychological Operations by Viliam1234 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:41PM (#30544909)
> If Russia was able to create division, why are they so bad at it when it matters - now.

Just guessing: It is easier to create division, when you manipulate both sides. It is easier to manipulate both sides, if you genuinely do not care which side wins.

As an example, consider vaccination. Trolling only on the anti-vax side would be a rookie mistake. A few bad arguments get made, then they get debunked, for most people it's game over.

To do it properly, you must also have your trolls on the pro-vax side. Their purpose is to provide stupid arguments in favor of vaccination, so that anyone who remembers their high-school education will go like "wait a moment, this doesn't actually make sense". They will also make such nasty attacks on their opponents, that many decent people will go like "hey, I am technically on side of vaccination, but these guys are assholes; I would rather not be associated with them publicly". -- This creates the situation where you have lots of confused young people documenting the mistakes of the pro-vax side, and pointing out their horrible behavior. Much better (from the attacker's perspective) than if one side is merely wrong.

The important thing is that (to the attacker) it doesn't matter which side wins. The goal is to create conflict. If the pro-vax side wins, by doing something that will make the losing side mistrust and hate them forever, mission accomplished. A few more conflicts like this, and the society is ready for a civil war.

Now when the two sides are pro-Russia and anti-Russia, would you want to be the Russian troll assigned to write anti-Russian articles? It's a lose/lose situation, because if you are too good at doing your job, instead of a bonus you might actually get a bullet, if you boss starts suspecting that you actually mean it. But your boss is even more scared of his boss, which is why he will probably assing all trolls to write pro-Russian comments. The entire troll department will play it safe, but as a result they will be much less effective.

Re:Psychological Operations by User23 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:04PM (#30545247)
I'm not pro-Russia. I oppose virtually all wars, especially ones that have a terrifyingly high chance[1] of solving global warming by nuclear winter. Furthermore, I'm neither Russian nor Ukrainian and I didn't have an opinion on the validity of the parties' justifications for the last 8 years of the Donbas conflict and I see no reason to let CNN/FOX/NYT/Twitter or any other American media outlet assign me one now. That being said the Ukrainians shelling ethnic Russian regions for 8 years was wrong. Russia invading and shelling Ukrainian regions is also wrong. My bias is against the unnecessary taking of human life. My intellectual interest here is in the use of propaganda and how it mutilates the ability of otherwise intelligent persons to make sense of world events.

Evidently the anti-Russia side is doing a fine job already, so why wouldn't Russian propaganda operations in the West just focus on the completely occulted pro-Russia side? And rest assured there is a pro-Russia side, we just don't get to hear it. If Russian "troll farms" were effective they'd manage to get it out. They observably haven't, so we can conclude they're incapable of doing so. Furthermore, the powers that be in the West act as though we are children that can't risk exposure to dangerous Russian media. This offends me and it ought to offend everyone else that has any intellectual self-respect. Regardless which side, if any, is in the right, the infantilization of the subject in the West is depressing.

How many people here have even heard of the Azov Battalion[2]? What is behind the apparent absurdity of an openly neo-Nazi unit fighting for the Jewish President of Ukraine? There's a lot going on here to be curious about and we're not permitted to be.

[1] I estimate it's around 1% right now.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Re:Psychological Operations by faeriechangling on Friday March 04, 2022 @12:29AM (#30551019)
My impression is that troll farms work like much of social media, the vast majority of things they do have zero impact on the world but a very small percentage of their efforts goes viral. I think people like to inflate their actual impact for partisan political reasons.

Still I’ll give an example of very effective propaganda. I was linked to this video a few years back made by “independent Canadian Journalist” Eva Bartlett. She oozed credibility, she was a westerner speaking at the UN and had legitimately been to Syria herself. It appealed to all my biases, she spoke against a mainstream media conspiracy to coverup war crimes to promote war in the Middle East. She even got featured by modestly popular pundit Jimmy Dore. Her video has been watched around a million times or so on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/g1VNQGsiP8M https://youtu.be/Z9F-cHc5Qog

Regardless of her sincerity, what isn’t obvious at all from these videos is that she’s on Russia Today’s payroll:

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/370618-syria-sources-bartlett-rt/am...

Now I won’t comment on the credulity of her claims, but I found it remarkable how when I first watched her video I had NO IDEA she was on RT’s payroll. She was called “Independant Canadian Journalist”. I like to think I’m hard to manipulate but man the Russians played me like a fiddle with this propaganda!

Re:Psychological Operations by obscurette on Saturday March 05, 2022 @03:18AM (#30565532)
It's your personal problem that neo-nazi equals hating jews. As someone who worked with keeping young men away from neo-nazi groups in the past - it's just not true for many groups. The real picture is much more complicated and is more often than not related to simple hate. If you have someone closer to you to hate, every other topic or nationality takes a backseat. Russian imperialism is closer to these groups than anything else now.
Re:Psychological Operations by Viliam1234 on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:08PM (#30573403)
> rest assured there is a pro-Russia side, we just don't get to hear it.

Lucky you! I hear a lot of it. Here is a summary, if you wish -- everything is USA/NATO's fault; war is horrible and the best way to end it is to stop supporting Ukraine and convince them to give up; if you say anything negative about Putin or doubt his words, then you are a hysterical warmonger and the good and decent people should make sure that you will be properly punished for that.

> the infantilization of the subject in the West is depressing.

For me the depressing thing is the assumption that 50% of media in the West should be the voice of Russian trolls, otherwise something is wrong with the West.

Re:Psychological Operations by User23 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @12:53PM (#30579396)
I don’t want to watch Russian propaganda anymore than I want to watch Ukrainian or US propaganda for that matter. You completely missed my point. What I don’t want is for someone else to decide what I can watch for me.
Re:Psychological Operations by dqpb on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:23AM (#30540628)
Well, it’s also Fox News’ business model.
Re:Psychological Operations by Sebb767 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @09:04PM (#30536220)
> Foreign gov't, certainly. Ours? As honestly as I can claim, I never knew of any Psyop folks conducting operations on those sites, nor did I ever hear of any directives for Psyop folks to use those platforms as viable mediums.

Wouldn't operating there also target a lot of non-US citizens? How would you actually go for non-US people that frequent English forums? Also, that the US completely leaves the field to the other guys seems unlikely to me, both from a tactical perspective and from the opinions I see.

Not that I have any credentials, it just sounds very strange to me.

Re:Psychological Operations by boston_clone on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @11:14PM (#30537109)
Honestly, my hypothesis (as I have no discrete data) is that sites like reddit, twitter, HN, tumbler, etc. already have CIA / NSA / "DoD" people both on staff and as participatory users, likely volunteer moderators / admins as well.

When you start to think about how many other foreign countries are doing the exact same thing, well, you start wanting to use social media a lot less.

Re:Psychological Operations by bckr on Thursday March 03, 2022 @12:45AM (#30537600)
> you start wanting to use social media a lot less

fidgets for a minute about whether HN is a social media site

Re:Psychological Operations by runnerup on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:50AM (#30537945)
We are lucky that HN effectively only has one staff person. Sort of hard for the CIA/KGB/CCP to seed it while it stays at this stage.

Especially with strict moderation of participants.

Re:Psychological Operations by sva_ on Thursday March 03, 2022 @07:40AM (#30540134)
> We are lucky that HN effectively only has one staff person.

False:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25235720

Re:Psychological Operations by mike_d on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:37AM (#30538213)
I know quite a few people who work at alphabet soup agencies and US based social media sites are strictly off limits. The exceptions are law enforcement (FBI, USSS, etc) actions where someone is dealing in child abuse material or terrorist recruiting.

Also ask yourself... why? Foreign intelligence resources are much better spent on foreign networks like VK, WeChat, and TikTok.

Re:Psychological Operations by jl2718 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @08:58PM (#30536173)
Posse Comitatus only applies to title 10 organizations like the military.
Re:Psychological Operations by woodruffw on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @09:04PM (#30536214)
I'm not sure I understand why you've brought up posse comitatus. The US military can't enforce domestic laws, but that doesn't even remotely pertain to whether the US military performs operations on domestic citizens (which it doesn't for entirely separate reasons).
Re:Psychological Operations by obviouslynotme on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @07:56PM (#30535705)
>Foreign gov't, certainly. Ours? As honestly as I can claim, I never knew of any Psyop folks conducting operations on those sites, nor did I ever hear of any directives for Psyop folks to use those platforms as viable mediums.

They were smaller then and it was still illegal for the USGov to do domestic propaganda before 2014. Twitter is famous for having literal PsyOps officers on staff.[1]

1. https://www.newsweek.com/twitter-executive-revealed-psyops-s...

Re:Psychological Operations by boston_clone on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @08:19PM (#30535889)
The article states that was a UK officer, and not the US.
Re:Psychological Operations by obviouslynotme on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @09:34PM (#30536425)
That is a distinction without a difference.
Re:Psychological Operations by boston_clone on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @11:19PM (#30537137)
I imagine there are at least a few differences in the legal boundaries for the US military and the UK. I can't speak to the latter, but I stand by my claim about the former.

Here's the most concrete anything I could find [0] about relationships between the US media and any PsyOp personnel, but I don't much care to look very hard. You're welcome to look as well.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_operations_(Unit...

Re:Psychological Operations by wolverine876 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @10:28PM (#30536796)
That is easily written but what does it mean and why should we believe it?
Re:Psychological Operations by wolverine876 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @10:31PM (#30536816)
Who publishes Newsweek? Last I knew it was the same as IBT, who were not really credible.
[dead]
Re:Psychological Operations by woodruffw on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @08:58PM (#30536169)
You linked a Senate Bill that, as far as I can tell, never became law. It looks like similar bills were issued in 2020 and 2021 and also failed to pass.

And this is even before we attempt to tease apart why you think that conservatives would be confused with White supremacists.

Re:Psychological Operations by anon9384929 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @08:59PM (#30536178)
False equivalence between BLM and Republicans. They aren’t two sides of the same coin.

Further, BLM activists don’t blow up federal buildings (and nurseries) or bring zip-ties and gallows to their riots trying to overthrow the government. You sound silly.

Re:Psychological Operations by wwweston on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @08:51PM (#30536112)
> "White supremacist has now become a label for a larger and larger group of republicans/white cisgender traditional-valued people. "

White supremacist beliefs aren't even illegal in the US (whether or not they should be), so the idea that the label of white supremacist itself absent of any other crime is somehow being used to legally prosecute people who are guilty of nothing more than "traditional beliefs" or "being Republican" is quite a stretch.

Not as much of a stretch as placing white supremacists and BLM as category-similar examples, though.

> "it just depends on who is in power"

Also how the law is written.

Re:Psychological Operations by boston_clone on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @08:20PM (#30535897)
I'm not a lawyer, but it looks like that piece of legislation was specifically for DHS, DoJ, and FBI - not DoD or DA.
Re:Psychological Operations by heavyset_go on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @08:56PM (#30536157)
> In the legislation above: "White supremacists and other far-right-wing extremists are the most significant domestic terrorism threat facing the United States."

This isn't just something the legislators made up, it's a factually true statement.

From the CSIS[1]:

> Far-right terrorism has significantly outpaced terrorism from other types of perpetrators, including from far-left networks and individuals inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaeda. Right-wing attacks and plots account for the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994, and the total number of right-wing attacks and plots has grown significantly during the past six years. Right-wing extremists perpetrated two thirds of the attacks and plots in the United States in 2019 and over 90 percent between January 1 and May 8, 2020.

[1] https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-u...

Re:Psychological Operations by JetAlone on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @09:19PM (#30536328)
Oh man, forget about white supremacists, antifa and the rest of the fun-house gang, could you imagine if the state departments individually labelled every single US citizen as a potential domestic terrorist, to pre-emptively justify deploying whatever surveillance and psyops they wanted? There's something deeply comical to me about the notion. That seems more or less like the fear that justified the PRISM priapism anyways.
Re:Psychological Operations by deltaonefour on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @09:32PM (#30536413)
>Out of scope until labeled terrorists.

You don't know how big this goes. It started with 9/11 and eventually gave the president unlimited power to use all forms of necessary and appropriate force against all forms of aggression. This includes using agencies to spy on their own people.

Right after the 9/11 terrorist attack, overwhelmed by mourning, congress gave the executive branch broad powers related to terrorism that still exists to this day. That power is scoped in a 60 word document voted on by congress.

That document effects how the government operates to this very day.

To see how it all started listen to this podcast: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/episodes/60-wo...

There was one person in that podcast who saw the future for what it was before anyone else. She made a stand and risked her entire career to stop what was to come. Ultimately she failed and that's why we are where we are today.

Re:Psychological Operations by melony on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @08:59PM (#30536183)
I thought McVeigh was left wing?