How does going back to the office help with that?

How does going back to the office help with structure?

Here's an example from my life:

I'm having a terrible time getting myself to the gym. Two options come to mind to fix this:

1) Use discipline (very hard) and shift my mindset so that going to the gym is not optional (also hard).

2) Apply a structure to my day to where I leave the house by default (not that hard) and have to go to the gym before going home (not nearly as hard as going out of my house specifically to work out).

Premack’s principle. Putting something you are less likely to do on its own (going to the gym, X%) before something that you are more likely (basically 100% for going home at some point) to do. Smart.

Use discipline (very hard)-this would probably solve a lot more of your problems tbh

Humans don't work like that.

Otherwise a majority of people wouldn't become obese in developed countries, many people wouldn't be single, etc.

A lot of remote work people are very preachy. It's not helping your cause. You're dealing with imperfect people, that's just fact. Adapt to that.

Yep. I use the executive function capacity that I have and I work to increase that capacity over time. But pushing too far past that capacity leads to, you guessed it, burn out.

+1 to the preachiness. You have done zero to help me or anyone else with your comment, GP. But it probably made you feel good to sneer at me.

I hope you get to work 100% remote for the rest of your career though.

edit: for those interested in the empirical science available around discipline, willpower, executive function, I point you to Dr. Huberman who has an INCREDIBLE podcast about these subjects: https://youtu.be/vA50EK70whE

That's exactly what the research says.

We have, a limited amount, of executive function capacity.

People who are "disciplined" actually don't have any more.

They have good personal habits which automates all the executive function stuff.

Figuring out those good personal habits and repeating them on a daily basis is extremely hard.

Some people just have personalities better suited to this or had a more structured upbringing.

It's one of the hardest problems in a person's life, sustaining good habits over very long periods of time.

It goes above normalcy, it's extraordinary, proven by the fact that most people can't do it.

It's one of the hardest problems in a person's life, sustaining good habits over very long periods of time. -Exactly, which is why you try to tackle the problem every day. Not every day is successful, but a handful of days are better then absolute zero.

It goes above normalcy, it's extraordinary, proven by the fact that most people can't do it. - You have to live through each and every second of your life, if you don't set yourself up for success, you'll only have a harder time developing good habits. Life is 100% about developing coping mechanisms. I walk on a treadmill for daily standup, I'm out the office/desk at 4pm and spend time with family/the dog/ a good book. The book thing is key because I've found it levels out my mental state and makes it less erratic.

This is a good comment. Much better than your previous one. Thanks.

> which is why you try to tackle the problem every day

Yes, every day I tackle some of my problems. Many days the effort I spend on a problem is to think about how I can develop habits using less executive function.

Today I plan to check out the gym around the corner, because it's closer than the one I've been going to downtown. So close that I could walk there in <5 minutes. This will be easier than any of a 25 minute walk, a 10 minute bike ride (on streets that people drive recklessly on), or a 5 minute drive (that has a lot of friction, especially parking).

None of these are excuses for not going to the gym, but rather than forcing myself through a high friction process, I'm spending those "discipline points" creatively acting to reduce the friction (while managing the rest of my life).

You should pick a gym half way between work and home on the same route. You may not feel like going, but hey you're going by any way. Or just move you gym time to your lunch hour and be specific on what you do. I like this and it is easy to add or cut based on time, but still make progress, because it will remind you. https://stronglifts.com/5x5/ Nice app too.

This is like telling someone to solve their engineering problems by being smarter.

(throwaway cause I'd rather people who know me personally not know this)

I'll just add one more anecdote to this. I'm also far less healthy during forced-remote COVID time. Try as I might, I just can't get myself to be active and eat healthier.

In the office, I biked to and from work which started me off well, and the structure of the day kept me more on top of everything too. During WFH, I don't exercise - I should, but I just can't make the habit stick. I sleep in cause it's easy - I shouldn't, but I can't seem to stop myself. Making and keeping friendships is harder than it used to be, giving me less reason to go out too. Everything spirals from there. Doing things has become hard.

I've tried habit-forming tricks to try to make it work. I've tried different routines to see if one sticks better than others: different times of the day, different exercises, different types of breaks. I've gone to a psychiatrist and therapist to help improve that "even little things are hard" feeling. I've tried medications like anti-depressants, which I never needed before. Ultimately nothing has worked, and I've spent almost 2 years now at a personal low for mental and physical well-being.

I very much wish I could be like the other people who thrive working remotely. But it's just incompatible with me on a level I can't really explain, and seems silly from the outside. If the tech industry goes full remote, I'll probably consider a career switch, because this isn't sustainable for me. And to be clear, there's only an issue when remote work is involved: I've spent time unintentionally unemployed, and was very happy and healthy. It's really working remotely in particular that does me in. Working in general is hard and stressful, and I need the positives of working in person to counteract that enough that I'm still happy and healthy.

I'm very happy for the people who've found happiness in remote work, and am happy many more people who want it will have that option going forward. But it really isn't for me, as much as I'd like it to be.

This resonates. I am a die-hard full-time remote worker for life but it definitely has an impact on my mental health. I'm always a few steps away from my workspace and that leads to working longer hours. However, for me, the upsides outweighs the downsides (assuming I can retire early, per plan).

I've somewhat recently started socializing with folks outside of work. That's helped as it gets me away from my computer for a while. I can only do a few hours at a time and at most twice a week before I get stressed out, but it's something.

TBH my biggest issue with working in an office was the commute. If I could get to work in a reasonable amount of time (10 minutes, no more) then I would be pretty happy to work in an office again. I'd put up with the interruptions at my desk, kitchen stink, and more interruptions if it meant I could have lunch with my peers and leave my work at work.

Unfortunately, a reasonable commute isn't in the cards for me. I could get there if I switched careers, which I might do when I retire from this one.

It’s tough to introspect on exactly why, but I was certainly more productive and less fucked in the head when I was going into the office every day.

Maybe it was general mental health, partly. I live alone, so getting out of the house daily and seeing other people is good for me. I had office friends who it’s hard to keep in touch with.

Structure was another part. I had to get dressed and leave the house at a certain hour, then I had to get my stuff done by 5, when I came back home.

And general peer pressure. I had an open office desk, and I hated that, but in hindsight, it did help me stay on task. Which is kind of hilarious, because the open office floor plan was so distracting that I was terribly inefficient at my desk, so I hid away in corners most of the time to get real work done.

There were tons of negatives to being in the office (god I hate the open office floor plans), but for whatever reasons, I was more productive before the pandemic than I have been during.

You can’t smoke weed and play video games all day at the office.

Not that I did that.

If you're the type of person to smoke weed all day, I'm not sure that being at work would stop it. It's simple enough to sneak an edible or hit a vape somewhere outdoors and private. Who is to say it's not an ecig, especially if you're not doing it in anyone's face?

I think peer pressure, visibility, and lack of non-work distractions are probably the bigger thing, though. Not just in terms of playing video games instead of working but you don't have the option to get up and do the dishes, or take breaks as frequently to read, or any number of other things that are less "slacker" and more "ADD brain".

You think if folks did that on a regular basis, there would have been a noticeable contribution reduction. At that point, it becomes a person management issue and either the situation should be corrected or the person be let go.

In this case the person appears to be looking forward to being in an environment where they can be more easily managed.

And that sounds bad, but there's another argument that gets thrown around: "why should I greatly invest myself in this business, when to the business I'm just a number".

"Being managed" could also be called "outsourcing executive function"--make your manager think about what you're supposed to be doing.

Reserve that executive function for what you love, your escape plan, or whatever.

Oh -- FWIW I didn't mean for "more easily managed" to have some negative implication.

I dunno. On some grander level, I know companies mostly just see us as numbers, but (and perhaps I've been lucky) most of the managers I've had have been basically nice folks, some have even given good career development device (some of which seemed much more beneficial to me than the company).

Right on.

And I bet those nice folks did a good job of taking executive function burden off your back :-)

Bingo. Many people at a certain point have figured out they’re fine (or have to) be a rat, but they’ve had enough of the race.

Just do a decent job while preserving as much of your mental energy as you can for your family and your actual life

I’m the person you’re taking about. I want an environment where I can more easily manage myself. A coworking space would even be an improvement.

I might have misread your emphasis on being managed by others, but it’s not what I meant.

I guess I view it as something where both parties contribute -- the manager does some managing, people are to some extent independent, it is all about figuring out what mix works. It looks like "being managed" has some negative connotation but I didn't mean to put it there!

I cannot speak for OP but as a working manager, COVID was hard to really keep forward progress.

I had people that were rockstars in the office that just didnt do work at home.

Maybe its the removal of distractions (no TV, I may walk by, etc). But even for things that were totally fine remote (ie: Ticket Queues) i noticed very quickly if my status showed "in" they were on it. If my status for any reason showed away, tickets would straight up get ignored. Mentioning this would enact change for a day or two, but ultimately it would return back to status quo. What did happen is that those that were self motivated were quicker/starting to burn out. I had to get with them and intervene and encourage them to take time off, encourage them to let the queue go for their teammates to pick it up etc.

I had other colleagues asking my ops teams to check in on their direct reports and I often had to have meetings telling them thats not a IT/Tech issue and they need to deal with it, just like I am having to..

Frankly i had a mouse shaker on a side box not for MY Managers, but for my direct reports...

As we transitioned back to the office a lot of these issues mostly disappeared. EXCEPT for those with weak/timid managers. A lot of those guys are still slacking, but they were slacking before and the manager just didnt want to handle it.

But my teams....most of them are mostly back to normal. We all have burnout to deal with, myself included and I have had to manage to balance pushing them and encouraging them to do things that dont cause burnout, front structuring your workday, to taking mental health days etc. But ultimately the return to the office was a relief for me, and a lot of that just went away.

I personally think its the removal of distractions coupled with the "threat" of someone walking up that doesnt exist at home. And its worth saying, I'm not one of those old school butts in chairs kinda guy. In fact im pretty laid back, and have been told so by peers and reports alike, and in many cases I have been asked how I am able to be so laid back and still have productivity like I do, but covid made it harder.

And thats beyond the fact that I have colleagues in other divisions that i KNOW are using their WFH days to be out fishing, playing golf, hiking whatever. Personally for me thats an ethics issue, i take days off for that. But I work in a small sector, im not going to tattle tail on someone i may cross paths with down the line, karma will catch them anyhow.