So just because you’re ‘able’ doesn’t mean that you should. Just wanted to put this here in case others think they’re weird for really, really not wanting kids. You’re not.

Having kids is by far the most life constraining thing you can do. Don’t do it unless you want to be a parent! I have two kids and my life is unrecognizable from what it was before. I enjoy my new life but it is 85% dad, 15% old me.

I would recommend the general area of making sacrifices and servicing others in some form. I think that is a big part of the “spiritual” fulfillment of parenting. I used to be so much more self centered. But now I get up every day thinking how to make the lives of my kids and the world better, rather than “what would my lizard brain enjoy today “

This is the key insight. No matter how much dopamine you shovel onto your lizard brain, it will just adapt to it and demand more. There is no maximum speed on the hedonic treadmill. Serving others is the polar opposite of that, you sacrifice the things that would provide you with an immediate reward and the reward you get has nothing to do with satisfying a want. The only way I can describe it is you are only aware of it when it's not there, when you're not doing the right thing by someone, it feels like an absence of something expected. Like putting your hand in your pocket and finding nothing where something should be.

Fulfillment follows from meaning, and meaning flows from responsibilities we bear.

why take on responsibility through having children? Why not pickup any other type of responsibilty? like, community service, tutoring/helping kids from less fortunate places or in the worst case even Picking up more responsibility from work?

Is it more of a genetic thing where it makes the pain of responsibility more pleasurable?

I'm even more curious to know if you think it could be some form of "endowment bias" that could be happening. From an objective standpoint, of course.

That said, when I look back at how I was using that freedom and time, it wasn't very efficient, but even if I optimized my use of it, I would have reached a local maximum of happiness, because I think there's only so much happiness one can bring onto themselves by mastery, shipping products and having hobbies, and, in order to experience additional happiness, major external factors must influence your life.

Having children is that external factor that initially introduced a ton of responsibility and cost (monetary, health, mental and time), but, if the early data points are any indication, the maximum happiness level should exceed the previous local maximum by an order of magnitude. The instant happiness I experience right now just from interacting with them already makes the responsibility worthwhile.

With time, I expect to get back some of the previous freedom and time, and, with that, the happiness it brings me, which should be an additive operation, pushing the overall happiness to a much higher level than the previous local maximum.

For data points, while I’m tired as fuck all year I’ve never (maybe as a child) smiled so much as when my new infant tries to constantly get my attention and then giggles when she does.

Kids take up so much time that I often wonder why -> how did I spend time before kids -> why am I not that much less productive now -> awww -> everything’s gonna be all right.

But that being said it’s absolutely okay to not want kids and be extremely happy with your life. If only there was a shareware parenthood.

I say this as someone who does not have kids and has no plan to have kids as I don't care to pay the immense costs required, so maybe I shouldn't even be replying to this, but I tend to see the same sorts of replies to these sorts of questions which I think put a bit of extra gloss that obfuscates the true motivators a bit.

I’m not trying in any way to change your mind but I want to say that this is only an opinion.

If you are ready to have kids, those costs are pretty easy to support. As you said, you are biologically programmed to support them (the costs).

I would die without a fear if my son’s life depended on it, and still I’m far from suicidal.

It’s just that, your brain naturally accepts the costs. Even if we are only talking about not being able to go that random party you would never miss before. You will be annoyed, for sure, but you’ll be granted with what you’ll live instead.

But I do think there is something that triggers in your brain starting from the moment when you want a child and it looks like it’s lasting a lifetime.

However, I would never recommend having children to anyone who don’t want them for any reason. Chances are that it turns out to be nice. But I wouldn’t take the risk. I see a lot of children whose treatment by their parents makes me really sad for them. The last thing a toddler want is to feel like a burden. So, better not create yourself this burden.

I want my life to be my own, thus the costs are not worth it to me. If I had a kid tomorrow of course that equation would change and it would be in my best interest to rationalize all costs in service of the child, and surely I would and suddenly they would be "worth it." I do not view this as an argument in favor of having children, rather I view it as a a specific detail of the biological programming working its magic.

I'm not a never-kid person either. I am open to the idea that one day I may decide the costs are indeed worth it and seek to have children. I think that seems unlikely, but part of the freedom of designing my own life is having the space for my preferences to change, and I could envision a world in which I would be happy as a parent. It would not be in a nuclear family as is common in the west, but that is perhaps for another discussion.

There's a big percentage of parents that have some form of post-partum depression (a quick search offers something between 10% to 20%)

Let me add the disclaimer that of course some adult parent-child relationships are terrible and off-putting. My point is to seek out a perspective which is not too short-sighted regarding procreation.

The other day I was flicking through my notepad in my home office and found hand written notes from my 6 year old daughter saying how much she loved me. Yes kids are a massive responsibility, but the payback you get if you do it right is immeasurable.

I'm not sure you'd get quite the same from the things you listed, perhaps a little...?

Anyway what is suggest is you enjoy your 20s, but make sure you are in a position to have kids by your early 30s... Otherwise it may be too late for your other half (women's clocks do tick rather fast). If you wait until she is 40 then you are really risking it.

However, it's very humane to bring to other people's attention that their prospective children might not be healthy.

No.

> and suddenly leave you grieving in a way you'd never be

And we should consider that when deciding to enter a relationship.

35 is roughly the cutoff for "everything's going to be fine without much effort or thinking", so plan ahead.

That's when you're going to start getting help from fertility doctors, consider IVF, get test results showing that your own sperm's motility is not perfect (i.e. you've got a clock too), higher chances of Down syndrome, etc.

For some folks that's not a lot of time to get married, buy a house, a car, get a stable job and bring your financial situation in order. These aren't strict requirements, but the amount of stress involved when one of them is missing is something you'll have to handle, so at the very least you and your partner shouldn't be completely oblivious of the soft deadline at 35.

The note from your daughter, while sweet, can also come from those you help. For example, sponsoring a childrens school in India, or mentoring an orphan through a Big Brother program.

I think the main point here is you are in service by helping others, instead of focusing on yourself.

I imagine it’d be incredibly fulfilling to know that you helped coach a troubled youth through a turbulent period to land in a good place.

When you have a kid, seeing them smile and grow and all thi gs they do gives the happiness you might have never felt before. Closest thing you could compare it to might be when you create something (a painting, project etc) and in the process each small accomplishment gives you a spike of happiness. Here it's a kid who cries for a need, and then you solve that need and make him smile. You make a human smile who can't even tell you what's there problem and make them feel protected enough that they sleep without a care in the world. There is lots of fulfillment steps in the whole process.

That's the best I can explain what it is about.

I doubt there is a absolute answer. You either want it, or you don't. Or you are not sure and then it might just happen one day and then, "well, let's go with it". Despite not having perfect conditions.

I think I wanted to have kids at around your age, but was clear, to wait until I could provide a adequate perfect base. And then years later it just happened, before me being ready and the responsibility for sure was and is very intense. But mostly of a good kind.

This resonated with me; I am yet to experience the lows because my kids are still young - the highs are just unparalleled. The happiness and calm I feel from having my son putting his head on my shoulders listening to bedtime stories is unmatched by anything else going on in my life.

I would feel so much more limited and bounded in what I can do in the world, because my own financial future and my own mortality would be way more relevant with dependents.

That said, I didn't have my first kid until my late 30s and every thing I did prior to that seems like a pointless waste of time now. YMMV.

When you start talking about how they could have done literally all of those things by adopting any one of the bajillion kids that need it, most people will openly tell you that they would never consider it and don't feel even slightly hypocritical about it.

Your body is tuned for that and without it you lack something (way more true for females). You might be able to put something in its place, but it might not do the job.

Consider that when a men is in presence of youngs kids his hormonal balance change so he become more caring, more in tune to their needs. When they get older that phase out and the kids become more annoying, signaling that it’s time for them to find their way, to distantiate themselves progressively from their parents. I found out that I cannot stand anymore the kids movie I used to watch with them multiple times when they were younger.

I find also that the life in big cities is less conducive to having a family, we tend to think about the space we have (bedrooms) and size of cars to decide on family size where it should go in the other direction. If I was younger I would have move to the country sooner and have four kids instead of just two.

I think it give your life meaning to care for people that are going to outlive you. You have to think about their future, how can you help them develop in a good directions, what are their specifics needs to maximize their potential, what did you wish was done for you that you can pass on to them.

Female are more tuned to the need for kids. Most of the time they will know the right time and will push enough to make things happen.

Is responsibility painful?

And yes, having skin in the game doesn’t automatically make things better. It actually introduces potential to make things more painful, in case things go wrong. But it also increases the ceiling on what you can get out of it, not just increasing the ceiling on what you can lose. Which basically makes things feel more meaningful and rewarding.

Fulfillment must be discoverable outside of that specific path, otherwise it’s cruel to bring someone into existence as a means for your end.

I don't think it's a good idea to make more humans right now, because they will not have a very good life.

There are endless things to engage and challenge your body and mind. Enjoying these activities with friends gives me the most joy. My job is just a crutch to support that.

COVID had a huge impact on all of those though.

Seems like he's prioritizing something other than career at the moment?

Going all-in on one area of your life is not a good bet.

I know because I've tried.

I will say that the overall concept of a "successful career" that is pushed is very, very overrated. You get the sense it is a message meant for a specific type of person that needs that void filled, and it is sent by that same type of person. To which I say: don't be that person, so you're not unduly manipulated by the messaging.

Can you please elaborate?

There are many food banks and code for america (and other country equivalents) that can use your help to impact your community.

Even if I quit my job, lived off savings and did volunteer work full-time, I'm likely not going to run into many other people like that. I could start taking a more active role and organizing, maybe with other full-time volunteers.

The work I'm doing while volunteering is also generally likely going to be less interesting to me than the software engineering work at a tech company. Maybe I'd be doing some kind of software engineering work full-time at a non-profit.

But at that point I've just traded in my job at a tech company with one at a non-profit. Ignoring whether this is better for the world overall (I'm skeptical it is, but whatever), how is it better for me?

edit: Not to imply that for some people, full-time work at a volunteer or non-profit organization can't be fulfilling, but I'm very skeptical that this is the case for most, or even many people.

MIT/Apache/BSD it, IMO.

Permissive licenses are equivalent to unpaid labor in the eyes of SaaS companies and other freeloaders.

> Permissive licenses are equivalent to unpaid labor in the eyes of SaaS companies and other freeloaders.

Or... you could be less resentful (and therefore happy) and think about helping the 'small guy' make it out and compete with large companies. I sometimes forget that we're on a startup tech forum.

I know you're not saying this, but in general I am fed up with the idea that anything commerical == evil. How the hell is it evil to build something, improve the world, provide value to others and get paid to put food on the table for your family? If you were to survey people that work in private companies, they're just like you and I. Normal people. They have not a shred of evil in them.

That said, ethics is important. I’m down with shaming and naming (or sueing) anyone that violates T&C of a license, GPL or BSD, doesn’t matter.

The small guy is free and very welcome to use GPLed code.

> I know you're not saying this, but in general I am fed up with the idea that anything commerical == evil.

Yes, I'm not saying this. On the contrary, I have bills to pay and I'm paid to develop software. One reason more not to give away gifts to freeloaders.

> That said, ethics is important.

And yet you also said "you could be less resentful"...

> Permissive licenses are equivalent to unpaid labor in the eyes of SaaS companies and other freeloaders.

Is a way to unhappiness. I MIT/BSD stuff and no worry about who uses it and how much money they make. The attitude above is like given to poor people at the sour kitchen and then getting angry if they make it out of poverty, become successful, and don't follow in your foot steps. What they do after I've given them the soup is irrelevant.

If I want to build a community of people who upstream patches for a project, copyleft does it better than saying patches are not required.

MIT is like a soup kitchen because soup kitchens are like MIT. I don't want to work in a soup kitchen.

I'm confident that you can't back that up with any facts. MIT/BSD projects are doing just fine at community and patches.

Absolutely not. A correct comparison is volunteering at a soup kitchen while see someone hoards the food and sells it back to homeless people and pockets all the profit.

And sometimes even takes credit for the quality of the food.