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Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by hallway_monitor on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:10AM (#29486468)
A lot of people are assuming the worst intentions here but anyone who has worked in an enterprise knows sometimes it's useful to build tools for your use and not to share. The tool might not even be allowed, C# is probably not in the supported platforms and even if it was, getting it into the official repos can be arduous.

If OP really cared about maximizing everyone's productivity of course they would share the tool. But if I'm working at a large enterprise and increasing productivity may only lead to laying people off I have exactly zero motivation to share something like this.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by pacaro on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:29PM (#29487685)
In 1995 I had my workstation audited by the IT department. A couple of days later I'm called into a managers office and told that I'd broken policy by installing unlicensed software and that I'm in serious trouble (I was a subcontractor from the department major vendor, this manager couldn't actually discipline me in any meaningful way)

I hand wrote them licenses in perpetuity to the half-dozen utilities that I'd written. One was simply two API calls, it popped a message box, and if you hit ok, would restart windows without rebooting (win16)

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by jacquesm on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:36PM (#29487771)
You're way too nice.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by Cullinet on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:24PM (#29489161)
but window dressing because unenforceable unless the subcontractors contract assigned all work product to the payor - this rather neatly turns the responsibility for unlicensed software in production over to the manager, who should have at least passed that to legal for dd, failing which I am tempted to presume that the manager was not acting in good faith.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by jacquesm on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @07:04PM (#29492279)
> failing which I am tempted to presume that the manager was not acting in good faith.

That was my impression. It looked like he saw an opportunity to rip off a bunch of neat software (without knowing exactly what it was he was acquiring) for no money at all.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by willcipriano on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:22AM (#29486653)
The question I have is how did incentives get so misaligned that this person feels that doubling the productivity of all their peers is unlikely to be worth the effort of presenting a tool.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by wccrawford on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:25PM (#29488421)
It's simple: What's the company's response to the tool?

Is it a percentage of the money saved? Absolutely not.

Is it a raise? Unlikely.

Is it a pat on the back? Maybe.

Is it more work, and a lot of pain supporting the tool in ways it was never meant to be used? Absolutely.

And it'll also mean a larger workload and more stress now that the company knows how much easier the job is now.

With that outlook, why would they share it? It makes their life better and easier as it is, and releasing the tool is all or mostly negative.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by boringg on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:14PM (#29489027)
And maybe once they find out how long you've had such tools you now get a lot of grief and blowback for not sharing sooner even given that list you just wrote. Could easily be a fraught situation.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by popcube on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:01PM (#29488870)
and maybe let colleagues get fired because they do not need anymore worker...
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by notreallyserio on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:56AM (#29487159)
I could see not wanting to support a tool. I've written tools that automate processes in useful ways but the interfaces aren't perfect and you need some base knowledge to understand how they work. I don't want to spend my time improving and supporting those tools. I wrote them to reduce the amount of work I have to do, not add yet another responsibility.

I've also made the mistake of sharing my tools only to find criticism but no offer to help make improvements. Fuck em, wasting my time.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by folkhack on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:37PM (#29487783)
> I've also made the mistake of sharing my tools only to find criticism but no offer to help make improvements. Fuck em, wasting my time.

Have experienced a ton of this too. One of the biggest internal tool mistakes of my career was to ship a tool like op's: Got yelled at for using company time to work on non-sanctioned work only to have the person yelling at me end up using my tool for 6 years. Colleagues would get pissy with me when drift happened never updating the tool themselves. Was in a weird position where I had no actual "sanctioned time" to work on the tool but was still required to support it.

But... the biggest rub: my manager (yeller from above) took all of the credit when upper execs eventually caught wind as client-facing changes were happening literally days faster. Something about "building a dynamic team where people are allowed to innovate" - my name wasn't even brought up according to the exec that I was close with.

If I could go back and redo everything I'd hide my work as it caused me nothing but pain, suffering, and bitterness. The reward for good work in so many places is a crack of the whip and more work.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by technofiend on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @03:54PM (#29490344)
To prevent someone taking credit you add a splash screen when the tool starts with your name on it. Same with the help -> about section.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by Cullinet on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:43PM (#29489438)
sounds like you should have enforced your moral copyright for credit. Being denied recognition as the creator of a work is a offence and the circumstances look like a judge would direct a jury to apply statutory punitive damages, making it a relatively straightforward no win no fee case to take. IANArealL just had the role as a general partner with unlimited liability for 23 years in a computational advertising company.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by willcipriano on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:18PM (#29487501)
If the incentives are right, that effort is worth it. By incentives I'm not talking about a $15 TGIFridays gift card and a mention at the company meeting, I mean a meaningful portion of the value generated, rewarded quickly not "maybe next annual review".

Many organizations punish the members who work hard with more uncompensated work like you have described.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by notreallyserio on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:34PM (#29487748)
Oh for sure. If they offered stock or options I'd take them up on it. Cash? I already make a good salary. Kudos? lol.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by Cullinet on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:58PM (#29489651)
I don't think it's lol worthy despite having been the other side of the situation for most of my career.

A patent you'd want credit for. A journal paper co-authorship likewise.

I'm very much in favour - especially for non contract LOB works - journalling moral copyrights formally.

Of course we've Github and the similar now, which is amazing, if you use it for such. I am currently working on a possibility to open source a range of advertising trading middleware (dates me, huh?) with the establishment of a Community Company* copyright holding structure that rewards individual contribution regardless of origin, weighted by calling / execution paths / additional necessary weighting as necessary, enforced by statutory articles of association bound in incorporation.

* Industrial and Provident Society : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_and_provident_soc...

articles of association bind the company members to the terms of their articles which are imbued with the same statutory powers of Companies Act, which has 400+ statutory summary criminal offenses adjudicable in the Companies Court. Companies Court, like Ecclesiastical, isn't very well known to even exist, even among the legal profession. However, very much unlike claims heard in the Chancery Division (which must be for greater than fifty thousand British pounds or go hence to the County Courts which exist for extension of the High Court originally for handling the volume property claims, and before which I won't give the most robust tort better than a bitten nickel worth chance.)

edit was unfinished, mea : unlike in Chancery, claims in Companies Court go quickly, because the weight is summary and summary findings of breaches of Companies Act are Criminal offenses, and therefore will shape the further claims evaluation considerably. It's almost a British Delaware system, and in keeping with the theme of this discussion, I was reluctant to write this, lest case load spoil the advantages!

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by dotancohen on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:22PM (#29488366)

  > I could see not wanting to support a tool.
I had one time written a small tool to reformat a CSV file for one of the office workers. One day she comes to me to make some change to the tool, but I was extraordinarily busy with my real work - and I only came in that day because there was a fire burning that I was best suited to putting out.

So my refusal to drop the emergency that I was fixing (on my day off) in order to modify this tool that had already saved her probably tens of hours of tedium, let to resentment and ultimately to me being fired from the place.

I'm in a much better place now ))

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by behnamoh on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:47PM (#29488692)
>> So my refusal to drop the emergency that I was fixing (on my day off) in order to modify this tool that had already saved her probably tens of hours of tedium, let to resentment and ultimately to me being fired from the place.

Man, we live in a society… glad you are in a better place now!

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by dotancohen on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:20AM (#29494431)
Yeah, the people who could appreciate me, the developers and developer management, were ultimately less influential than an administrative staff member. And this was a software business, writing software for clients. Not a software division of some larger entity. One grudge is far more powerful than a chord of appreciation.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:15PM (#29487451)
Nobody cares about 'the company' - "In US the average share holding lasts just 22 seconds"

Management can break the law, leave with their bonuses, and years down the line 'the company' gets fined.

Employees are the ones that might be there for decades, but the anglosphere shareholder model allocated 0% stake to employees.

TThere are alternatives:

Codetermination in Germany is a concept that involves the right of workers to participate in management of the companies they work for.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by gleenn on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:38PM (#29489374)
The average is probably horribly misrepresented. There are a ton of super long holders, which hold for decades, and a crazy high number of HFTs running that hold for microseconds. I bet nobody is actually close to the average, 22 seconds is extremely slow for software trading and extremely fast for a human. If you're using the holding duration as a proxy for people caring about companies, I think you are probably including a massive amount of HFT timing which it's clear isn't representing company loyalty. Also, what if an HFT buys and sells the same stock 1M times. The average time would likely be very short, but the "loyalty" could be 100%. Bad metric.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @03:52PM (#29490329)
Very, very few people hold stocks for multiple years, so they have no reason to care about the company's long term future:

"There are different ways of slicing it, but Reuters calculations based on New York stock exchange data show the average holding period for U.S. shares was 5-1/2 months in June, versus 8-1/2 months at end-2019."

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by Sohcahtoa82 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:39PM (#29488591)
> Codetermination in Germany

For some reason, at first, I read this as "Code termination" (not co-determination) and thought it was a mistranslation of some German compound noun, and I was confused.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by visarga on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:06PM (#29488933)
TTS on Mac also reads it as "code termination"
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by runevault on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:10PM (#29487368)
Because making it work the way YOU want can be far easier than making it work the way 50, 100, 200 people want. And once they see you as a supplier of thing they'll expect you to give them what they want, because that is how people are.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by pkdpic on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:26PM (#29488433)
Exactly, a classic 95:95 scenario. You can build 95% of the functionality for yourself pretty quickly but getting it to work for 20+ people will end up constituting 95% of the total labor if you choose to do it. There has to be a serious reason to take that on. If nobody's asking for it it doesn't feel like a smart use of company time or personal energy. Thats been my approach at my current company and it's kept me in a pretty positive / non-toxic place with the rest of our staff so far.

That said the original comment doesn't seem to be coming at this purely from an angle of practicality.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by runevault on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:35PM (#29488536)
That is a fair counterpoint. For me it was pointing out there are reasons not to do it that isn't simply being selfish. If a company wants to invest in tooling (a smart thing to do, one of the appeals of Google beyond their comp is they invest in state of the art in house tooling) they should pay staff who's primary job is in the creation and maintenance of tools to increase developer productivity/satisfaction/etc.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by hluska on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:34PM (#29489324)
Have you ever tried to get something you built deployed into a company where you work?? I didn’t learn the lesson the first time so I’ve tried it twice.

If it goes badly, get ready for a fight. Some cats gain psychological comfort out of knowing everyone is doing exactly as they’ve been told. If you have one of those in your leadership chain, they’ll start questioning every single thing you have ever done. If it goes down this path, you’re fucked. You either shouldn’t have used it at all or you should have told them six months ago.

It doesn’t matter if you only built it three months ago.

If it goes well, you get to go through “code reviews” so it can be rolled out to everyone. But these aren’t the kinds of code reviews that help, they’re the kinds that demonstrate precisely why the company wasn’t capable of building it themselves. If you pass that stage, you’re the maintainer but since you built it on your own time, you can support it on your own time too.

If you make it through that stage, that’s when the feature requests start rolling in. No matter what you built, it will become a time/productivity tracker. That’s around when you start losing relationships with coworkers. You’re management’s bitch but they don’t see that. Instead, you’re the dude whose ‘simple’ tool got shoved down their throats because you want to be VP Eng when you grow up.

Humans are fucking weird. If you ever want confirmation, try to help…:)

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:15PM (#29487452)
It's remarkable how dysfunctional some organisations can be, especially larger enterprises.

Then you have the problem that the reward for good work is almost always more work.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by hallway_monitor on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:49PM (#29487948)
Exactly. So give them great work maybe a little bit faster than everyone else and they will just think you're working really hard!
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by SuoDuanDao on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:12PM (#29487401)
I don't know the particulars of the situation of course - I imagine there's a big bump in work involved between making a tool useful for its creator and making it idiot-proof for one - but I have observed that as organisations get larger predictable performance becomes much more valuable relative to outstanding performance.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by shock on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:31AM (#29486811)
I think it's a side effect of Milton Friedman's Shareholder Primacy Theory, which people interpret in different ways, sometimes, resulting in very skewed incentives.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by BatteryMountain on Thursday December 09, 2021 @03:06AM (#29494994)
Another small issue is that the company I'm at is kind of risk averse and try not to use custom tools built by individual devs. They've done it once and now they are stuck with that one tool(also a kind of custom compiler like mine)but the dev is long gone. So unless it becomes an official feature of our systems and some team (not an individual) can support it and there is a clear tech/business benefit, they would most likely deny the dependency. And to be honest, it has kept things sane/boring. It's good stewardship in my mind so I'm at peace with their apprehensions.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by BatteryMountain on Thursday December 09, 2021 @03:02AM (#29494962)
Telling them that I use C# will just paint a target on my back since everyone is anti Microsoft and they cringe if you mention anything Microsoft related.

Other than that, there is a ton of admin/red tape to get past if I want to introduce it as official tools and some team needs to be able to support it.

My intentions are actually not malicious at all, I'm just reducing my own frustrations and avoiding adding more stuff onto my plate.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by Hekioi on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:08PM (#29487341)
We are writing software!

It's our fucking job to optimize the world around us.

How do you think can we, as a society, advance while doing bullshit jobs?

Make me obsolete!

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:20PM (#29487522)
Nicola tesla advanced civilisation yet died poor and alone. Meanwhile someone else made a fortune
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by literallyWTF on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:11PM (#29487392)
And then what? What makes you think the leaders/rulers of our society will then somehow “pay us back”?

You’ll just end up broke and without a job.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by SuoDuanDao on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:36PM (#29487760)
2/3 of all jobs are widely accepted to add no value to society[1]

2/3 of all consumption is accepted to add no incremental happiness[2]

2/3 of all CO2 emissions can be eliminated through careful lifestyle management and community design.[3]

These quantities do not seem coincidental and they point to a better way of doing things.

You're not wrong, there's no incentive currently to 'pay us back'. But collectively we are working three times as much as necessary so we can afford things that don't make us happy, and there is no way to sustain that state of affairs beyond the next hundred years or so. Scamming or strong-arming the ruling class into paying most of us for work that doesn't add value may be in our best interest in the short term, but for the long term we need to start acknowledging that it's not in anyone's interest that this state of affairs continue.

[1]Bullshit Jobs, the book [2]the Financial-independence-retire-early (FIRE) community [3]studies I came across in my degree on sustainable energy engineering

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by literallyWTF on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:52PM (#29487986)
Leave it to HN to argue that getting rid of jobs will reduce the carbon footprint of corporations.

I mean you’re not wrong, once we purge a large chunk of the population, since ya know, they’ll have no way to provide for themselves, we will have a much greener planet.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by slaymaker1907 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:46PM (#29488684)
That is a pretty bad faith interpretation of the original argument. You are assuming (incorrectly IMO) that the only purpose of people is to do work. While work is important, I think humans are inherently valuable, even if they don't produce anything else of value besides themselves. Instead of creating fake work for these people to do, I'd rather they just be provided for without doing fake work that accelerates us towards apocalypse.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by SuoDuanDao on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:57PM (#29488055)
Are you for paying people to do work that doesn't add value and consuming crap that doesn't make us happy? Because I said nothing about 'purging' or any solutions at all for that matter. I just pointed out that these three problems are in an important way just one problem.

I'd actually seriously like to know, do you want people to have to do work that doesn't add value?

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by wing-_-nuts on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:56PM (#29488799)
I think what he's saying is that we will probably never build safety nets strong enough to provide for those who had their jobs automated away. They will be condemned to a miserable life of poverty, provided with just enough to keep them from rioting on the streets.

Source: I used to be on SSI disability. This is income for those that are so disabled they are never expected to be capable of working. The average SSI payment is something like $585 / mo. Well below the poverty line and any dignified existence. If this is how we treat our most vulnerable, how will we treat those who have simply been automated out of a job?

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by SuoDuanDao on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @03:10PM (#29489797)
That may or may not be true, depending on any number of factors. But that the current state of affairs is neither desirable nor possible as a long-term steady state seems to me self-evident. And yet to my great surprise, this has turned out to be one of the most controversial things I've ever said on HN.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by Hekioi on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:23PM (#29487590)
I don't want to do bullshit work just to be entertained.

I want a society were no one needs to work and we only reach it when the amount of people we need is getting so much less that our society needs to rethink this "work".

Without a job? My work ethic is to work in a way that I'm not needed.

And still I'm needed but instead of doing the same old shit everyday I can innovate because I don't need to fix old shitty written stuff.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:34PM (#29487741)
You're actually right. The goal is to automate all work to the point there is no need for an economy. In a post-scarcity society there is no need to economize.

However, it's a mistake to believe the rich and powerful will allow such a society to exist since they'd be powerless in it. They will impose artificial scarcity on it in order to maintain the existence of capitalism and their fortunes. Just look at how copyright is ruining free computing and the free internet.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by unclebucknasty on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:05PM (#29488913)
>it's a mistake to believe the rich and powerful will allow such a society to exist since they'd be powerless in it.

I'm having trouble imagining how such a transition would even look. I mean, do we still have some sort of recognition of property rights for existing property? If not, then how are the currently owned resources "freed"?

If so, then the wealthy would still be wealthy and there'd still be "classes". So, I'm not sure they'd mind so much, but for consideration of their offspring (which I don't discount).

In either case, how do we go about allocating future resources?

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by Hekioi on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:40PM (#29487817)
Apparently the working class is doing there part as well to keep the status quo when I see the reaction of others to my statement.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:14PM (#29488276)
I don't think this is accidental. There seems to be a deliberate effort to de-politicize the economy and to de-economize politics. The left used to be all about labor rights. Now it's about gender politics.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by JacobThreeThree on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:10PM (#29488228)
Lol, it's the fault of the working class that they're oppressed? Strange world view.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by psychoslave on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:55PM (#29489608)
Fault is a rather morally strongly conoted term, but from a cybernetic analysis, the working class is contributing to the positive feedback loop of is own oppression.

That's not to say individuals that compose the class are all willingly and stupidily acting against their own collective best interest while being convince there's a better practical way they can afford to realize with only marginal chances to end up ostracized or severely punished for the sake of the example.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by literallyWTF on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:47PM (#29487909)
Lol. BRB lemme make my job and the job of others obsolete and hopefully society will also happen to reevaluate “work” just in time so I don’t starve to death.

Do you understand how dumb your logic is? Or are you going to continue to hand wave literally everything

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by deltree7 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:28AM (#29486761)
Increasing productivity never lays people off, unless the people were originally being unproductive. That's a dumb understanding of economics and even management.

Also, scaling tools to more than one user is incredibly hard. Software development is still custom / art. This tool works because it is suited to OPs workflow and his "way of thinking". In order to make it work for others, it needs lots of improvement and generalization, which is incredibly hard. Some people may even hate it, because they have their own best way to do things.

Devs should stop being delusional about their self-importance in these things. There are 100 other factors going on in an org and your one little tool ain't gonna make a penny difference in the profitability or productivity of the company (unless you have data to prove it, including impact on profitability)

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by CrazyStat on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:44AM (#29486994)
> Increasing productivity never lays people off, unless the people were originally being unproductive.

Maybe in some imaginary world with spherical cows, infinite demand, and no friction (physical or transactional).

In the real world, increasing productivity so that one person can do the job that ten used to do very often results in layoffs. 70 years ago there were hundreds of thousands of telephone switchboard operators in the US. Productivity increased and they got laid off.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by afrodc_ on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:20PM (#29487536)
This is so true. Anecdotally, my dad worked in FABs on chips and stuff in the 90s during the dot com boom before they stripped all those jobs away to outsourcing and it basically destroyed him as an older man. Funny how we're desperately trying to get the silicon manufacturing back after we sold out.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by spc476 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:19PM (#29489112)
"Hey, it improved the financials since it moved from capex to opex. Also, I got my bonus and jumped ship before the excrement hit the cooling unit."

Yeah, several years ago, our corporate overlords sold off a database we created to a competitor and leased it back from them. Now, we're trying to recreate that database to avoid the financial overhead. I'm sure at the time it made sense to some bean counter but it was penny-wise, pound-foolish in the long term.

I think now it's impossible to think long term financially. Thanks, Wall Street.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by ddingus on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:58AM (#29487198)
Reducing head count is literally the core sales pitch for a ton of software and or solutions out there today.

They won't put that in the end user facing presentation, but you can count on it being part of the executive pitch.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by deltree7 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:54PM (#29489583)
once again this is a clueless understanding of increasing productivity.

If I build a tool and make a person irrelevent, then I didn't increase productivity of the laid-off worker. I merely increased my own productivity.

What OP said was his tool specifically increased the productivity of all other users, which means his team can churn out features faster.

Show me a management team that says no to it

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by CrazyStat on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @08:41PM (#29492825)
That's easy: a management team that only needs ~X new features per month, not 4X. No organization has an infinite demand for features. If they currently have 50 devs working on the platform, maybe after quadrupling the productivity of each dev they'll keep 20. Speed of development increases by 60% and they save 30 developers worth of expenses, which means hefty end-of-year bonuses for every manager up the chain. More likely they keep about 13-15.

It's naive and boneheaded to insist that productivity increases never result in layoffs.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by wing-_-nuts on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:49PM (#29488714)
>Increasing productivity never lays people off

Once, I worked for a medical claims company. We had a dozen people who just worked on processing claims. I wrote some software that cut the claim processing time in half. Instead of finding new work for the claims processors, they literally laid off half of them. I have never felt worse, as a software developer than I did that day. Management was so short sighted at that company.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by monocasa on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:36AM (#29486874)
Management commonly has a dumb understanding of economics and management. Particularly when they view engineering as a cost center.
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by afrodc_ on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:14PM (#29487436)
To the untrained eye, it definitely is a huge cost center. Devs and smart people get premium dollar for their work, as they should, but for the bean counters, execs and bad managers, it's extremely difficult to simply quantify the work in such a way to see it as a value add. Especially in an executive excel sheet/powerpoint
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by phkahler on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:40PM (#29488607)
>> it's extremely difficult to simply quantify the work in such a way to see it as a value add.

Which is often the case even in product development. They know the existing product is only going to be useful for the next few years. They know they need something new to build on the line. But somehow the development of that new thing is seen as pure cost rather than an investment in the future.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by swagasaurus-rex on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:19PM (#29488333)
Nevermind how work and production is the bare minimum price of being a business
Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by dlkf on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:20PM (#29487528)
> Increasing productivity never lays people off, unless the people were originally being unproductive.

This is either trivial or underdetermined. It depends on how you define "unproductive":

- If you define "unproductive" as "produces at a lesser rate than the new, increased productivity level" then it's just a tautology.

- If your definition of "unproductive" is not relative to the new rate, then you have to stipulate a reasonable definition of "productivity" and show that it was not being met prior to the automation. You haven't done this.

It might turn out that the second bullet is easy enough to do in the domain you're talking about. But it's worth using language precisely if you're going to tell people that they have a "dumb understanding" of whatever you're discussing.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by rubyn00bie on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:11PM (#29487380)
This comment is absurd. I cannot for a second fathom how you came to believe so naively that’s productivity increases do not result in lay offs. Seriously how did you come to that conclusion? I’m just curious because it’s so disconnected from reality I can’t figure it out.

Also, your assumption about tooling is 100% incorrect as I myself have written tooling that was saving an org 35k a day, in a single market.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by deltree7 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @03:00PM (#29489685)
Most people have a poor understanding of 'increasing productivity' especially what OP is talking about.

If I build a tool, that makes someone else irrelevant, that increased my productivity, but not the person who is now irrelevant. Yes, that person gets laid off. So, your tool leading to firing a legal assistant is not what we are talking here.

If I build a tool, that makes every other developer more productive, then the team can build more features or fix more bugs.

Show me one software team that doesn't have a backlog of bugs and features that would not benefit from increased productivity and leading to laying of people in the team.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by philosopher1234 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:42AM (#29486969)
>Devs should stop being delusional about their self-importance in these things. There are 100 other factors going on in an org and your one little tool ain't gonna make a penny difference in the profitability or productivity of the company (unless you have data to prove it, including impact on profitability)

This is false. My org has seen millions of dollars of savings many times on the backs of tools. Improving developer productivity, and it sounds like ops tool would be huge for productivity, is extremely valuable.

Re:Do you ever avoid submitting something on HN so devs won'... by newbamboo on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:41AM (#29486957)
You may be correct but still, this made me literally laugh out loud.