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Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by wyager on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:16AM (#29189595)
I would suggest removing plant-based foods to whatever degree possible. Eliminate wheat, soy, nightshades, and other likely irritants/allergens.

My social group tends more towards heterodox dietary choices than most groups, so I have a lot of friends on “extremist” diets. It is quite apparent that the expected outcome of people who only eat meat is significantly better than the people who never eat meat. Both are likely better off than most people consuming the standard American diet, but this might just be due to increased focus on health in general rather than any specific benefit of the diet.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by mlac on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:22AM (#29189694)
Both you and op make such convincing arguments, I have no idea what to do.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by soldehierro on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:25AM (#29189748)
Neither poster makes convincing arguments; you can find anecdotal reports of nearly any diet producing seemingly miraculous results, but any consideration of one's eating patterns should be based off peer-reviewed research.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by nradov on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:34AM (#29189884)
Even the peer-reviewed research is mostly junk observational studies that are distorted by the healthy subject effect and other uncontrolled variables. That is not a sound basis for making personal dietary decisions.

A better approach for most people is to conduct personal n=1 experiments and just see empirically what works best for you in terms of subjective feelings and objective performance metrics.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by soldehierro on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:46AM (#29190040)
This is unfortunately the status quo of nutrition research; A long-term RCT is the "gold standard", but it is exceedingly difficult to recruit subjects and ensure their compliance over meaningful periods of time. Which is part of why constant flip-flopping about whether something is healthy or not is almost a trope in journalism. Nonetheless, a few principles have been well established: vegetables are good, fruit is (mostly) good, refined grains and free sugars are bad.

The issue with personal experiments is often that they are just as biased and cannot be conducted over meaningful time-scales. As an anecdote to illustrate this, I am significantly more productive and energetic when consuming a single sugary, chocolately coffee, but it would be foolish to conclude over such a short period of time that my personally ideal diet should include sugary coffee. I'm not deluded that this is a healthy practice, however; free sugars, fructose in particular, are demonstrably a major factor in the pathogenesis of lifestyle-related diseases.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by toyg on Thursday November 11, 2021 @03:57PM (#29193063)
> vegetables are good, fruit is (mostly) good, refined grains and free sugars are bad

Even those are not really absolutes, because a diet with only those "good" elements will still be worse than a mix including animal proteins. Also, some vegetables are simply bad in excessive quantities (mushrooms, potatoes, etc).

The problem we typically have is just over-abundance of everything in our diets. Too much meat is bad, too much vegetables are bad, too much fruit is bad, too much fish is bad, too much dairy is bad. And that's because our bodies evolved to make the most of anything they could digest, since the normal state was scarcity and every little bit helped with survival. Now these finely-tuned "recycling systems" are routinely oversupplied in ways they were not meant to be, and they can't help themselves but overproduce nutrients of all sorts, with all sorts of unpredictable results.

We are like ports where ships continue to unload containers at excessive rates. Some of those containers will end up polluting the area, some will just accumulate into horrible mountains, the motorways will be clogged by a continuous stream of lorries, etc etc etc. Some of those boxes will contain life-saving medicines and some will contain pointless junk, but that's not the actual problem - if you reduce the rate of shipping, then all containers will happily go where they have to go and be dealt with as they "deserve".

We were probably not built to have three meals every day.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by vixen99 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:39AM (#29189939)
Yes it should. And there is a lot of it linking a range of chronic disorders with nutrition. However not everyone has the time and perhaps the background to sift through and see what is significant. On the numerous diets on offer, my impression is that only the Mediterrean Diet has received solid backing from evidence-based peer-reviewed studies.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by soldehierro on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:51AM (#29190114)
Part of the issue is that the so-called "Standard American Diet" is so bad in the first place that any deviation from it can produce encouraging results.

I tend to agree, however, that a Mediterrean-patterned diet is definitely in the right direction based upon the weight of nutrition literature.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bumby on Thursday November 11, 2021 @03:12PM (#29192561)
I agree, but find it hard to balance a medium-to-high amount of seafood in the diet with the prevalence of dangerous levels of heavy metals found in fish
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by nradov on Thursday November 11, 2021 @09:45PM (#29195806)
In general smaller fish that are harvested at younger ages have lower heavy metal levels. They haven't had as much time to accumulate toxins. Sardines are usually a good option.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by jaquer_1 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:00PM (#29190226)
Obviously sarcasm Obviously
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by toyg on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:49AM (#29190073)
One should not come to an IT forum for advice on health, so this is probably a good outcome
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by markstos on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:01PM (#29190235)
Science is overwhelming on the side of whole-food, plant-based diets as the better choice for long-term health. This is covered in books like "How Not to Die" and "Own Your Health".

The study linked here agrees-- more fruits and vegetables is correlated with lower dementia.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bigyellow on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:27AM (#29189768)
Sincerely try it and see how it makes you feel, then decide. Make an effort for 3-4 weeks, making sure to get enough calories (https://cronometer.com/ is a good resource) and have support from your friends and family. I think only first-hand experience could really convince anyone.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bumby on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:35AM (#29189896)
Just be aware that nutritional deficiencies can take months or in some cases years to manifest. Just because you feel better in the short term does not mean it’s a long term solution.

There’s a couple of personal experiences where I switched to a vegan diet and felt great for the first two months or so but other health/performance factors in the longer-term caused me to deviate away from it.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by therealdrag0 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:21PM (#29191161)
+1 for Cronometer. I evaluated a bunch of nutrition tracking apps mostly on simple/focused UX and this was the winner.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by threatripper on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:31AM (#29189839)
It really takes weeks and months for the body to fully adjust to a diet. Also the body can suddenly change and one needs another kind of diet.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by djbusby on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:33AM (#29189863)
We want to measure something - not feelings. What can be measured?
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by nradov on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:36AM (#29189908)
You can measure athletic performance. Check your 1RM for the standard lifts, or VO2 Max for running, or whatever performance metric aligns best to your favorite sport.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bumby on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:37AM (#29189920)
A normal blood panel is a good place to start. For me, lipids and liver function tests are what I track. But insulin sensitivity is a good one too. All depends on your personal risk factors
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by djbusby on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:31AM (#29189832)
Everything in moderation (except for moderation)
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by markstos on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:03PM (#29190258)
Would you hammer your toe in moderation?

There really some things where the less you have, you the better.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by djbusby on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:43PM (#29190750)
Thanks for pointing that out, else I'd have been completely lost.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by erikerikson on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:38AM (#29189935)
s/except/including/
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bumby on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:24AM (#29189719)
>Eliminate wheat, soy, nightshades, and other likely irritants/allergens.

I’m curious how you arrived at this conclusion. Granting that allergic or inflammatory responses may be on a spectrum, a cursory look online seemed to indicate many animal products have higher rates of allergic responses than plant products. E.g., soy is listed at 0.4% of the population while (cow) milk is 2-3%.

Maybe a better way to phrase it is to remove any food that causes an inflammatory response.

Edit: clarifying the type of animal milk

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by wyager on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:45AM (#29190029)
No one except people who have been affected by weird pathogens like lone star tick disease is allergic to ruminant meat. Milk is probably the single worst case example of an animal product, by a huge margin, because while almost everyone ate a ton of ruminant meat, not everyone ate a ton of milk.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bumby on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:51AM (#29190101)
Fair point. But by that same logic we need rob throw out your examples as well since they are the most prevalent plant allergens. Even then, they are generally affecting less than 1% of the population.

Switching a population to a ruminant-based diet is currently a privilege that is not generalizable under the current food system. (Which is why I specifically chose cow milk as the comparison as a calorie/protein source).

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by adrr on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:32AM (#29189847)
Is there any study that shows that nightshades increase inflammation. There are tons of studies showing that tomatoes lowers inflammation. Here is an example.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766234/

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by fouc on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:41AM (#29189975)
I think he's referring to the fact that some people react to nightshades. It can cause weird inflammation-like responses for those that are susceptible.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bumby on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:47AM (#29190045)
I think this is the error in the OP’s claim. A relatively rare case (allergic reaction in <1% of the population) is generalized as being applicable to the population at large.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by fouc on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:35PM (#29192120)
Not really, they were giving multiple examples to point out that plant-based food can and do cause inflammation.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bumby on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:49PM (#29192292)
I think you’re misunderstanding. While true, their point is only applicable to a vanishingly small amount of the population. For example, soy allergies are only listed as a 0.4% rate of prevalence. I don’t think that’s enough for an absolutist claim that applies to the other 99.6% of humans. It comes across as cherry picking, bad faith, or just not understanding the data.

If I cherry pick the first Google scholar link that is showing a 2.3% seafood allergy, would you conclude that all people should abstain from fish?

It’s not a question of whether a particular food (let alone an entire group like plants) can cause inflammation, but whether it’s prevalent enough problem to claim people should completely cut it from their diet. You alluded too this with the caveat “in those who are susceptible”. We shouldn’t generalize a rule for those who are susceptible to be applicable to those who are not.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bigyellow on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:23AM (#29189713)
> I would suggest removing plant-based foods to whatever degree possible. Eliminate wheat, soy, nightshades, and other likely irritants/allergens.

What is the basis for this assertion? I mean besides self-congratulating anecdotes and other second-hand knowledge.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by fouc on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:24AM (#29189732)
What's the basis for your earlier assertion?
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bigyellow on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:27AM (#29189784)
For one, the very article we're discussing.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by stayfrosty420 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:26AM (#29189757)
What's the basis for your assertion that plant based is somehow healthier? It's absolutely not and you'll be lacking in a variety of vital nutrients. A balanced, varied diet is best.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by datameta on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:45AM (#29190023)
Any lack of vitamin intake can be supplimented with otc vitamins. It is better to acquire them through food, but the often recited B-vitamin deficiency in vegans is easily quashed with a B-complex a few times a week max.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by wyager on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:47AM (#29190049)
If your “healthy” diet requires vitamin pills it’s not a healthy diet. Animal diets don’t require you to take pills or do anything weird - the absolute most extreme advice some animal diet people will tell you is that it’s a good idea to eat liver.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by markstos on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:10PM (#29190339)
The cited B12 vitamin turns out to come from bacteria, not plants or animals. Humans used to get it by eating plants because they weren't washed well. We only get it from non-human animals because they eat things which have the bacteria on them. B12 was already recently found in "water lentils" but I don't think that's commercially available yet.

As far as "doing anything weird", have you looked in how farmers forcibly impregnate cows or what happens baby chicks or dairy calves that have the misfortune to be born male?

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by datameta on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:52AM (#29190122)
I don't personally adhere to a strictly vegan diet. But if one does, and their avoidance of stress hormone metabolites in industrially raised livestock makes them feel better, then taking a vitamin supplement (which is orders of magnitude under the maximum safe dose and therefore without side effects) is the rational choice.
Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bumby on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:42AM (#29189999)
>It's absolutely not

Rarely can conversations like these be improved by absolute claims.

There’s research going back decades showing reduction in saturated fat (generally from animal products) improves cardiovascular health. CV risks are one of the largest mortality links in industrial societies.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by leereeves on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:23AM (#29189707)
At least for allergens, the latest advice is that babies should be exposed to them because early exposure helps prevent food allergies.

Your experience might simply reflect that anyone on a careful diet is likely to be healthier than average simply by avoiding all the junk people typically eat.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by boppo1 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:24AM (#29189724)
I think your observations about expected outcome are true. Unfortunately, it's inconvenient in light of climate change because it presents a seemingly intractable problem:

- humans should eat (minimally processed) animal products - production of animal products must be minimized to fight catastrophic climate change

From where I sit, it seems like more and more educated, well-meaning people are starting to lean into a plant-based craze on poorly founded information that seems well founded because the educated classes generally agree it is correct.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by bryanrasmussen on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:23AM (#29189706)
>the expected outcome of people who only eat meat is significantly better than the people who never eat meat

Hannibal Lecter definitely outperforms expectations.

Re:Risk of dementia linked to diet low in fruits, vegetables... by fouc on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:23AM (#29189714)
That's a good point, even something like the carnivore diet is apparently quite low in inflammation.